Playing recorded music in public

[ally_1988]

Hi Everyone,

I am wanting to play music at an Exhibition we will be standing at.

I have been looking online for information on what I need to do in order to do this, but there seems to be a lot of controversy over this topic.

Am I correct in saying, that if I had purchased a CD from a shop and then wanted to play this at our exhibition stand, I would require a license from both PPL and PRS?

I have found a thread on here about whether you need one or both, but was hoping someone might be able to clarify this for me.

Thanks

 

[mit74]

dont know if you've seen this one

http://www.ppluk.com/en/Music-Users/

 

[vvaannmmaann]

Discussed at length last week.
http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=179573&highlight=shop+music
If that's not enough,use the search function(top right) and look for "shop music", more there for you.

 

[paulears]

A few years ago, I was making a video for an exhibition. The client wanted to use Oxygene - Jean Michel Jarre's famous song. About 3 mins worth, then the video repeated. I got a price to clear the copyright, and thought it reasonable until I discovered this was for a single play. Playing it over 500 times was going to be ridiculous - but they worked it out on length, number of plays and the expected number of people hearing it. Scary stuff!

To save you reading the other topic, you probably need PRS, MCPS and PPL licenses.

 

[leemason]

If you want to be completely safe then why not look at some royalty free music like this: http://www.jamendo.com/en/. You can burn your own CD from anything you like here and won't have to pay for PRS licenses or anything else.

 

[ally_1988]

thanks for all the replies and links.

I would love to go down the route of royalty free music, as it seems so much simpler. But unfortunately it would need to be current music, that will be recognisable.

The sites are just so vague, I think I might just ring them!

The prices to get a license for a single event don't seem too bad, just not sure if that covers the playing of the actual music I have, or if I have to pay for the actual songs I want to use on top.

 

[vvaannmmaann]

What are you promoting at the show that really needs current music?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Most exhibitions that I know have restrictions on the playing of music. Check first if it is allowed.

 

[oldeagleeye]

You are right. You would have to have both licences. One pays royalties to the composer the other to the performer.

I think both are about £38 quid each. Not a fortune to pay out but you can forget it. I have been in an out of the exhibition business for over 25 years and I have never heard of a venue of orgainzer that allowed individual stands to play their own music. Even a computer presentaion will be banned if it interferes of disturbs stands nearby.

Rob

 

[ally_1988]

Thanks for your response Oldeagleeye.

It's not so much a case of needing to play current music, more that it would help grab attention.

I will definitely make sure I check that this is actually allowed before I go buying any licenses, but I'm fairly confident it will be.

seems to bit of a controversial topic, having looked at some similar thread and google articles.

Thanks for all your help

 

[vvaannmmaann]

What product are you promoting?

 

[oldeagleeye]

Quote

I will definitely make sure I check that this is actually allowed before I go buying any licenses, but I'm fairly confident it will be.

Hi Ally

First of all you are mistaken on several points. (1) is that a stand at an exhibition is not classed as private premises. It would have to be the venue manager then that would have to apply for the licences and he or she is not going to do that again for several reasons.

(A) It would imply that you had a right to have music or as I said earlier any audio blaring out of your stand to the annoyance of both other exhibitors and visitors who wouldn't be at all interested in your product. In short . no way.

(B) Imagine if this were a classic record exhibition - everyone would want a powerful player on their stand to blast our music and it would just be a wall of noise. (

c) Also is an important factor. The cost of the licence. This came up on LBC only last week on Nick Ferrari's breakfast show and he got a representative from both orgs to comment.

It seems for instance that as in one case mentioned that if you are a locksmith with a small shop that listens to the radio and just 1 or 2 customers come in the shop and can hearthe radio too then you still need a basic licence.

Likewise. If you are a cab driver and listen to LBC which doesn't play music only the odd jingle that LBC actually pay for - the cab driver still needs a licence if his fare can hear it too. Close the window so they can't and he doesn't. All this I might add is for a basic license.

Where a single public performance is concerned like a concert of exhibition is concerned then we go into different terrortary. The way those reps were talking the licence fee could be set on visitors numbers. Whatever. It is all hassle and I can't see any event organizer prepared to take it on. In fact you will more that likelyfind that there is already a clause in the contract which states that all 'exhibits and 'promotional material' must be contained within the stand. All meaning sound and indeed any salesteam.

The other thing you got wrong buddy is that it makes no difference whether or not you are playing streaming music from a radio station or old CD's even if you own them. You and any visitor would be regarded a listening to a public performance.

The bottom line is that I am absolutely certain that your request won't be allowed. Mind you thats not so bad. Get a couple of dolly birds giving out leaflets or a money off voucher instead. It works better.

Rob

 

[oldeagleeye]

Quote

I will definitely make sure I check that this is actually allowed before I go buying any licenses, but I'm fairly confident it will be.

Hi Ally

First of all you are mistaken on several points. (1) is that a stand at an exhibition is not classed as private premises. It would have to be the venue manager then that would have to apply for the licences and he or she is not going to do that again for several reasons.

(A) It would imply that you hada right to have music or as I saud earlier any audio blaring out of your stand to the annoyance of both other exhibitors and visitors who wouldn't be at all interested in your product.

(B) Imagine if this were a classic record exhibition - everyone would want a powerful player on their stand to blast our music and it would just be a wall of noise. (

c) Also is an important factor. The cost of the licence. This came up on LBC only last week on Nick Ferrari's breakfast show and he got a representative from both orgs to comment.

It seems for instant that as in one case mentioned that if you are a locksmith with a small shop that listens to the radio and just 1 or 2 customers come in the shop and can hearthe radio too then you still need a basic licence.

Likewise. If you are a cab driver and listen to LBC which doesn't play music only the odd jingle that LBC actually pay for - the cab driver still needs a licence if his fare can hear it too. Close the window so they can't and he doesn't. All this I might add is for a basic license.

Where a single public performance is concerned like a concert of exhibition is concerned then we go into different terrortary. The way those reps were talking the licence fee could be set on visitors numbers. Whatever. It is all hassle and I can't see any event organizer prepared to take it on. In fact you will more that likelyfind that there is already a clause in the contract which states that all 'exhibits and 'promotional material' must be contained within the stand. All meaning sound and indeed any salesteam.

The other thing you got wrong buddy is that it makes no difference whether or not you are playing streaming music from a radio station or old CD's even if you own them. You and any visitor would be regarded a listening to a public performance.

The bottom line is that I am absolutely certain that your request won't be allowed. Mind you thats not so bad. Get a couple of dolly birds giving out leaflets or a money off voucher instead. It works better.

Rob

 

[paulears]

Let's sort this one out.

You need PPL Details of tarrif below:

Exhibitions Tariff
THIS TARIFF IS EFFECTIVE FROM 01-OCT-10 TO 30-SEP-11
NOTES:
For the public use of sound recordings solely as background music at Exhibitions - both throughout the
Exhibitions and at individual stands as specified below.
Fashion shows, DJ presentations, aerobic/keep fit, dance displays etc held at exhibitions or on individual stands, to
be charged separately using the appropriate tariffs.
Additional use of background music in other areas (bars, restaurants etc) to be charged separately using the
appropriate tariffs.
Rates for the whole Exhibition will exclude individual stands.
Where the Area of the Exhibition as a whole is greater than 1000 sq metres the rate per day is double.
It is important that you provide the names of each exhibition in your application.
There are two important and distinct parts to this tariff. One part of the tariff concerns the use of sound recordings
throughout the exhibition venue, the other deals with the playing of sound recordings on individual stands.
You need to specify the dates of each exhibition as the tariff is calculated on the number of days you intend to play
sound recordings as background music.
Fee(£)
16.74 per Day or part thereof per Stand (Individual Stands)
21.90 per Day or part thereof for Areas of under 1000 sq. metres (Whole Exhibition)
VAT should be added at the current rate to the above charges.

PRS don't actually have a specific exhibition ratecard, but they do have one designed for one-off type events in retail premises, which could apply - you'd need to check with them, but for info the rates are as follows:

The higher royalty rate (standard plus 50%) is payable for the first year of the
licence where the music user has not obtained PRS for Music's licence before
musical performances commence.
Audible Area
1.1 Background and
demonstration music*
(per annum)
1.2 In-store events*
(per day)
Square Metres Higher Rate Standard Rate Higher Rate Standard Rate
up to 100 £205.05 £136.70 £20.25 £13.50
101 - 150 £299.70 £199.80 £30.30 £20.20
151 - 200 £299.70 £199.80 £40.35 £26.90
201 - 300 £394.50 £263.00 £50.40 £33.60
301 - 500 £489.15 £326.10 £50.40 £33.60
501 - 750 £583.80 £389.20 £50.40 £33.60
751 - 1,000 £678.45 £452.30 £50.40 £33.60
1,001 - 1,250 £773.10 £515.40 £50.40 £33.60
1,251 - 1,500 £867.75 £578.50 £50.40 £33.60
1,501 - 1,750 £962.40 £641.60 £50.40 £33.60
1,751 - 2,000 £1,057.20 £704.80 £50.40 £33.60
2,001 - 2,500 £1,151.85 £767.90 £50.40 £33.60
2,501 - 3,000 £1,246.50 £831.00 £50.40 £33.60
3,001 - 3,500 £1,341.00 £894.00 £50.40 £33.60
3,501 - 4,000 £1,435.80 £957.20 £50.40 £33.60
4,001 - 4,500 £1,530.45 £1,020.30 £50.40 £33.60
4,501 - 5,000 £1,625.10 £1,083.40 £50.40 £33.60
5,001 - 6,000 £1,719.75 £1,146.50 £50.40 £33.60
6,001 - 7,000 £1,814.55 £1,209.70 £50.40 £33.60
7,001 - 8,000 £1,909.05 £1,272.70 £50.40 £33.60
8,001 - 9,000 £2,003.70 £1,335.80 £50.40 £33.60
9,001 - 10,000 £2,098.50 £1,399.00
For each additional
1,000 (or part of)
£94.80 £63.20
£50.40
for 9,001m2
and above
£33.60
for 9,001m2
and above
• Audible area is the area of the premises, measured wall to wall, to which the public is
admitted and music is audible, plus any outdoor areas if applicable.
• To convert square feet to square metres multiply by 0.092903.

The only difficult question is calculating the area - I'd suggest it would be the area within which the music can be heard - and as you're not going to be allowed to be too loud, it should be small.

After reading this, just give them a ring - they're actually very helpful and not remotely 'police like'.

 

[paulears]

Let's sort this one out.

You need PPL Details of tarrif below:

Exhibitions Tariff
THIS TARIFF IS EFFECTIVE FROM 01-OCT-10 TO 30-SEP-11
NOTES:
For the public use of sound recordings solely as background music at Exhibitions - both throughout the
Exhibitions and at individual stands as specified below.
Fashion shows, DJ presentations, aerobic/keep fit, dance displays etc held at exhibitions or on individual stands, to
be charged separately using the appropriate tariffs.
Additional use of background music in other areas (bars, restaurants etc) to be charged separately using the
appropriate tariffs.
Rates for the whole Exhibition will exclude individual stands.
Where the Area of the Exhibition as a whole is greater than 1000 sq metres the rate per day is double.
It is important that you provide the names of each exhibition in your application.
There are two important and distinct parts to this tariff. One part of the tariff concerns the use of sound recordings
throughout the exhibition venue, the other deals with the playing of sound recordings on individual stands.
You need to specify the dates of each exhibition as the tariff is calculated on the number of days you intend to play
sound recordings as background music.
Fee(£)
16.74 per Day or part thereof per Stand (Individual Stands)
21.90 per Day or part thereof for Areas of under 1000 sq. metres (Whole Exhibition)
VAT should be added at the current rate to the above charges.

PRS don't actually have a specific exhibition ratecard, but they do have one designed for one-off type events in retail premises, which could apply - you'd need to check with them, but for info the rates are as follows:

The higher royalty rate (standard plus 50%) is payable for the first year of the
licence where the music user has not obtained PRS for Music's licence before
musical performances commence.
Audible Area 1.1 Background and demonstration music*(per annum) 1.2 In-store events*
(per day)
Square Metres Higher Rate Standard Rate Higher Rate Standard Rate
up to 100 £205.05 £136.70 £20.25 £13.50
101 - 150 £299.70 £199.80 £30.30 £20.20
151 - 200 £299.70 £199.80 £40.35 £26.90
201 - 300 £394.50 £263.00 £50.40 £33.60
301 - 500 £489.15 £326.10 £50.40 £33.60
501 - 750 £583.80 £389.20 £50.40 £33.60
751 - 1,000 £678.45 £452.30 £50.40 £33.60
1,001 - 1,250 £773.10 £515.40 £50.40 £33.60
1,251 - 1,500 £867.75 £578.50 £50.40 £33.60
1,501 - 1,750 £962.40 £641.60 £50.40 £33.60
1,751 - 2,000 £1,057.20 £704.80 £50.40 £33.60
2,001 - 2,500 £1,151.85 £767.90 £50.40 £33.60

• Audible area is the area of the premises, measured wall to wall, to which the public is
admitted and music is audible, plus any outdoor areas if applicable.
• To convert square feet to square metres multiply by 0.092903.

The only difficult question is calculating the area - I'd suggest it would be the area within which the music can be heard - and as you're not going to be allowed to be too loud, it should be small.

After reading this, just give them a ring - they're actually very helpful and not remotely 'police like'.


As for streaming - it does matter - Spotify confirmed in writing they are UNABLE to license any playing via their system in public.


EDIT - Sorry for the double post, it vanished then appeared back again.

 

[ally_1988]

Quote

I will definitely make sure I check that this is actually allowed before I go buying any licenses, but I'm fairly confident it will be.

Hi Ally

First of all you are mistaken on several points. (1) is that a stand at an exhibition is not classed as private premises. It would have to be the venue manager then that would have to apply for the licences and he or she is not going to do that again for several reasons.

(A) It would imply that you had a right to have music or as I said earlier any audio blaring out of your stand to the annoyance of both other exhibitors and visitors who wouldn't be at all interested in your product. In short . no way.

(B) Imagine if this were a classic record exhibition - everyone would want a powerful player on their stand to blast our music and it would just be a wall of noise. (

c) Also is an important factor. The cost of the licence. This came up on LBC only last week on Nick Ferrari's breakfast show and he got a representative from both orgs to comment.

It seems for instance that as in one case mentioned that if you are a locksmith with a small shop that listens to the radio and just 1 or 2 customers come in the shop and can hearthe radio too then you still need a basic licence.

Likewise. If you are a cab driver and listen to LBC which doesn't play music only the odd jingle that LBC actually pay for - the cab driver still needs a licence if his fare can hear it too. Close the window so they can't and he doesn't. All this I might add is for a basic license.

Where a single public performance is concerned like a concert of exhibition is concerned then we go into different terrortary. The way those reps were talking the licence fee could be set on visitors numbers. Whatever. It is all hassle and I can't see any event organizer prepared to take it on. In fact you will more that likelyfind that there is already a clause in the contract which states that all 'exhibits and 'promotional material' must be contained within the stand. All meaning sound and indeed any salesteam.

The other thing you got wrong buddy is that it makes no difference whether or not you are playing streaming music from a radio station or old CD's even if you own them. You and any visitor would be regarded a listening to a public performance.

Didn't really get it wrong, I just was just asking which licenses I needed to do it. I never said I didn't need one! But glad I'm your buddy, maybe we can add each other on facebook and "poke" each other!?

The bottom line is that I am absolutely certain that your request won't be allowed. Mind you thats not so bad. Get a couple of dolly birds giving out leaflets or a money off voucher instead. It works better.

Since you were picking up on the words I chose to use, I will return the favour; since you don't know the event it is I am going to attend, you can't possibly be "absolutely certain" that it won't be allowed.

Have already got the "dolly birds" sorted


Rob

You have definitely made some good points though, so thank you. I will be sure to take them on board

Ciao for now

 

[oldeagleeye]

Let's sort this one out.

You need PPL Details of tarrif below:
PRS don't actually have a specific exhibition ratecard, but they do have one designed for one-off type events in retail premises, which could apply - you'd need to check with them, but for info the rates are as follows:
The only difficult question is calculating the area - I'd suggest it would be the area within which the music can be heard - and as you're not going to be allowed to be too loud, it should be small.

After reading this, just give them a ring - they're actually very helpful and not remotely 'police like'.


As for streaming - it does matter - Spotify confirmed in writing they are UNABLE to license any playing via their system in public.


EDIT - Sorry for the double post, it vanished then appeared back again.

I rest my case. If you think any orgainizer is going go thru all that hassle for little ole you I think I would like an invite to the party afterwards. Bound to take off - one way or another.

 

[vvaannmmaann]

I'd still like to know what the OP is promoting.