Playing music in a shop

[ginantonic]

You definitely need a licence to play any music in any shop - my partner has a convenience-type store and played his own CD "mixes" of a variety of music, also playing his playlists off his laptop occasionally. He received a letter this week from the PRS stating he would have to pay £130-odd for the licence for the year, so someone must have shopped him. You cannot use the radio, either, without the licence. Apparently you CAN play music by unsigned artists/bands, so how about promoting some of the young local musicians by playing their music in your shop? Gives them a boost and also you have free music.

 

[Goodegging]

still dont think tis righ that the radio station pays for the ppl licence and then you have topay for the ppl licence too (for your business)

Glad to hear that unsigned bands dont need a ppl licence - I take it that means freeware music downloaded from tinternet too?

 

[AdamJ]

Out of interest, there are websites where the artists allow their music to be sold, or even given away, explicitly with no rights. Where this is the case and the artist is not claiming any royalty, would you still need a licence? Or if I had composed, made and recorded it, or a mate had?

 

[ItsARiot]

I think it would be nice to keep some music playing because music affects people's mood. Also, it could be a relaxing for mothers with their little ones in tote. I am always a fan of a bit of background noise.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Wikimedia has a nice selection of classic music available under creative commons and public domain licences. Might be worth asking on the attached forums, but I believe that you should have no problems playing any of this in a shop (would be a nice change from the modern rubbish!)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Classical_music

 

[kayemdesign]

Did anyone see breakfast tv this morning.

It showed a guy who runs a small (just him!) garage. He has been told he must pay copyright fees to play his radio if members of the public are visiting him to drop off their cars!!!

Apparently it's classed as a music broadcast and therefore he has copyright fees to pay. The world's gone nuts!!

Steve

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Does this mean they could fine people who play their car radio or MP3 players too loud?

Hope so!

 

[kayemdesign]

I think it applies to businesses, not members of the public

I did read somewhere that cab drivers 'should' pay a licence fee to play music in their cab if the letter of the law was strictly applied.

As I said, the world's gone mad!

Steve

 

[i234i]

SMALL BUSINESS BODY QUESTIONS WORKPLACE MUSIC ROYALTY
The Federation Of Small Businesses has called on for change of law so that employers don't have to have a licence to play music in the workplace.
As all you royalty fans will now, technically speaking any employer who allows music to be played on their premises - even if it's the radio - should have a licence to do so from those PRS people. Said licence is required because the 1988 Copyright Act classifies music playing in the workplace as public performance, and therefore subject to the public performance royalty. In theory PRS, representing songwriters and music publishers, could sue any company who allows music to be played on its premises without a licence.
Speaking to Radio 4's Today programme, the FSB's Stephen Alambritis said that many small companies were unaware of this rule until they got a call from PRS, adding that he thought the current law was too wide-ranging, and the licensing process too complex.
He said: "We have no problem with the PRS collecting money from restaurants, cafes, pubs and bars. [But sometimes a company will have a] radio that is essentially in a backroom for the boss, not intended for the staff but the staff may be within earshot - or there may be some customers within earshot. [Then] out of the blue our members are being harassed by the PRS". Basically Alambritis wants the law to be changed so that businesses only have to pay a royalty when a company is using music to create an atmosphere - say in a bar - rather than when certain staff members are listening to the radio while they work.
Needless to say, PRS spokesman Adrian Crookes defended the current situation, pointing out licences for employers started from £66 a year, not much more than a pound a week, and stressing the Society would never "harass" a small business. He told the Radio 4 programme: "I think it's important to remember that the 60,000 songwriters and composers who are our members are small businesses themselves, so we're very, very sensitive to the pressures on small business. And we wouldn't choose, for example, sole traders or people working in their home. [But] it is important to recognise the value that music adds to business and ensure that songwriters and composers who've made that contribution are fairly paid. There are studies that have shown that it improves productivity performance, raises morale, team-building".

 

[simonswords]

I'm operating a business which is doing well with a bunch of employees and a healthy bank balance.

However it feels like I'm constantly attacked from all angles with VAT, employers NI, corporation tax, employee rights, sick pay, maternity pay, bank holidays (there were never this many when I was employed I'm sure of it!) etc and then the government sets up an organisation to charge me for playing music. Not just any music; music in MY office, using MY CD's and MY cd player?

Man it's hard to make an honest living in this country.

 

[creospace]

Man it's hard to make an honest living in this country.

That would be why you're having a go in Jersey then

 

[simonswords]

That would be why you're having a go in Jersey then

Cheeky, it's probably obvious but I take it I mentioned our Jersey office either on UKBF or the Atlas Blog?

 

[Goodegging]

why should a small business have to pay for a basic PPL licence (the licence permitting a radio to be played) when the radio station has already got a licence to play music to the public anyway? Is not that the composer gets paid twice for the same thing - once from radio and once from shop?

I say everyone does not renew their PPL licence when it expires and all businesses dont apply for one. Then we will see the PPL and composers begging at our knees to get one. Then they will see what it is like when the PPL Clan come knocking at your door because some customer heard a faint sound from the bosses office - oh my god, was it music - oh no must not have that and report them to PPL!

 

[Goodegging]

Cheeky, it's probably obvious but I take it I mentioned our Jersey office either on UKBF or the Atlas Blog?

when are you going to set ferret on them?

 

[Cornish Steve]

When we think of oppressive regimes, we think of people spying on their neighbours and reporting them and government spies driving around at night in order to catch someone out.

1) This thread reveals how some people are reporting neighbours for - heaven forbid - playing music on the radio.

2) The government has its detector vans peeking into our front rooms, detecting what channel we are watching, and knocking on the door late at night if - oh no - someone is watching TV without paying the government for permission to do so.

3) As someone else pointed out in another thread, the police drive around car parks checking on number plates and running them through a national database. Someone will lose their car if - what a crime - a parent tells their adult son he can drive his car to the local store to pick up some groceries without first contacting the insurance company.

4) Local government officials scan our rubbish bins to see what we're throwing out. If we put the wrong thing in the wrong bag, what a crime, we're hit with a fine.

Seriously, folks, if I'd have written this 20 years ago, no one would believe this would ever happen in Britain (other than the TV detector vans). How did we let this happen?

 

[Stephen Berry]

...............to charge me for playing music. Not just any music; music in MY office, using MY CD's and MY cd player?
Man it's hard to make an honest living in this country.

I would not want to totally defend or support the current position, but an alternative view is that of the artist ...... why should you (or I) play his/her/their music for the entertainment of others and then not give them their due financial reward? Surely that would be a form of theft?
Playing my CD just for me - that is fine - that is what I bought the CD for; but for others, that is the use of an artists music for the provision of entertainment and the artist should therefore benefit from it.

 

[TestAPlug]

Hi, I work in a lot of production areas and I can tell that listening to the local radio station (not a plug but ram FM for us), the workers are a lot happier, as for customers in a shop, if I were a dancer my life would revolve around music so I would expect it to be played in a shop dedicated to me. Also if you have a local radio advert it would work well. KEV

 

[Goodegging]

I would not want to totally defend or support the current position, but an alternative view is that of the artist ...... why should you (or I) play his/her/their music for the entertainment of others and then not give them their due financial reward? Surely that would be a form of theft?.

but the radio station has already paid the artist through their PPL licence. so why should the person playing the radio?

 

[ginantonic]

I took a look at Wikimedia (mentioned in an earlier post) and although it's mainly classical music, it's under public licence, and at least it's better than nothing, or better than paying the PRS, anyway.
Does anyone know what the fine is if they "catch" you? Or do they just persist in collecting the standard fee?

 

[OldWelshGuy]

We have had a huge debate about this on the FSB website, and the FSB have taken up the case. As CRAZY as it seems, one guy was told he neede a PRS licenece to play his OWN MUSIC. that being music he played and recorded himself from original compositions.

Also VERY important. there is a huge scam going around by people claiming you need to buy a licence, it is all official looking but it is NOT the Performing Rights society, and they have no right to be doing what they are doing.

Watch this space really.

 

[Cornish Steve]

We have had a huge debate about this on the FSB website, and the FSB have taken up the case. As CRAZY as it seems, one guy was told he neede a PRS licenece to play his OWN MUSIC. that being music he played and recorded himself from original compositions.

These laws have been screwed up for some time. When I was 15, I wrote a piano concerto during the summer holidays. I needed to make a couple of copies, so I went to our local newsagents because they had a copy machine. They point-blank refused to allow me to make copies because I could be violating copyright. I mentioned that it was my own music. Their response was that even copying blank manuscript paper is illegal, and they simply would not budge. I had to take a bus to another town and use a copier in a library where no one could watch me making copies.

I've never understood rules like this and never will.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

it is NUTS. And the truth is that the PRS are contradicting themselves left right and centre.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

We've had three letters from them in the last week - must be where all the revenue goes.

 

[Stephen Berry]

but the radio station has already paid the artist through their PPL licence. so why should the person playing the radio?

I cannot defend the current law - it is an ass and I do agree with you in the example of radio. The point stands for playing CD's etc, but even if I wanted to defend the point about radios just for the sake of debate, I would be clutching at weak straws of non-logic!

 

[ginantonic]

Has anyone had one of the PRS spoof letters? We've had one and don't know if it's real, although it looks pretty authentic.

 

[reggiemental]

As CRAZY as it seems, one guy was told he neede a PRS licenece to play his OWN MUSIC. that being music he played and recorded himself from original compositions.

Now that's taking things too far! Have you got any more info on this? I'd like to know in what context he's supposed to be licenced to play his own music, as this just doesn't sound right. To get over the PRS hurdles, I even use my own compositions on the company music-on-hold facility, and if someone told me I'd have to pay for the privilege, they'd be quickly told where they could stick their invoice.

Going back to the original post, why not consider getting hold of some royalty-free music? There are many music libraries around who will sell you a compilation CD of music in any genre. If you're not worried about having chart material playing in the background, then this could be an alternative option.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I think they really need a court case to set a precedent about this. Sadly I'd imagine that most small firms are not prepared to risk a court battle, and the PRS will probably try and avoid one if possible since they are on very unstable group with many of their claims - particularly over self-composed/public domain music.

I do wonder if some of their tactics could count as extortion?

 

[rossk]

Hi All

This is my first post, and I was actually on here doing some "why LTD" research and stubled accross this post. I work in the motor trade and lots of my workshop based customers have been contacted about a licence for the background radio etc, so I did a little research of my own and found the following section in the official act, the
"Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988"

which I believe is the actual act that these blood sucking leaches are trying to peddle there licences for:

72 Free public showing or playing of broadcast or cable programme
(1) The showing or playing in public of a broadcast or cable programme to an audience who have not paid for admission to the place where the broadcast or programme is to be seen or heard does not infringe any copyright in—
(a) the broadcast or cable programme, or
(b) any sound recording or film included in it.
(2) The audience shall be treated as having paid for admission to a place—
(a) if they have paid for admission to a place of which that place forms part; or
(b) if goods or services are supplied at that place (or a place of which it forms part)—
(i) at prices which are substantially attributable to the facilities afforded for seeing or hearing the broadcast or programme, or
(ii) at prices exceeding those usually charged there and which are partly attributable to those facilities.
(3) The following shall not be regarded as having paid for admission to a place—
(a) persons admitted as residents or inmates of the place;
(b) persons admitted as members of a club or society where the payment is only for membership of the club or society and the provision of facilities for seeing or hearing broadcasts or programmes is only incidental to the main purposes of the club or society.
(4) Where the making of the broadcast or inclusion of the programme in a cable programme service was an infringement of the copyright in a sound recording or film, the fact that it was heard or seen in public by the reception of the broadcast or programme shall be taken into account in assessing the damages for that infringement.

To cut a long story short, I believe the above says I dont need a licence and unless I am missing something, niether do most other people.

Am I being stupid and missing something here??

Your thoughts please!

Regards
Ross

 

[Goodegging]

whats the setup with music licence if you are an in-store disc jockey, like in a cafe.

I have heard through grapevine you may be able to dodge licence that way.

or do PPL crew demand bigger fee?

 

[Glottenham]

I know I will need a licence to play music in a shop but what I want to know do you think it is necessary?
I won't be playing loud music as my main customers will be parents, more than likely with children in tow. So it has to be cheerful, not too loud etc.Majority of my customers will be female and dancers.
What do you think?
I have to be able to concentrate too , especially when I am doing fittings etc

I actually think that this issue is vastly more important that people give it credit for. So many shops have moronic radio 1, braindead and creepy instore radio channel or whatever. If I were you, I'd play 'happy hardcore' internet radio - definity internet radio of an unusual and very hip nature. Honestly, small kids LOVE happy hardcore/german pop techno. They really freak out on it! ..but maybe not the sort of 'dance' you are selling, yes?

 

[silklink]

Hi

Does anyone know or heard of a compilation CD/media where the rights to play it as background music is paid in with the price of the CD?

For example, I know that certain telephone systems pre-package that annoying music you listen to while waiting for a human to answer the phone

I wondered if such a system was available more widely.

 

[silklink]

I have read the whole thread but I can't remember if anyone posted the 'real deal', so here it is...

www dot mcps-prs-alliance dot co dot uk (Unable to post URLs at this stage)

The price starts (lowest) at £106 for the first year and then £70 per year thereafter. That's your radio sorted!!!

If you want your own choice of music, prices start at £197 in the first year reducing to £131 thereafter.

Why the first year is more expensive than any other year cannot, IMHO, be substantiated.

We are being taken for a ride.

By the way, I think you need a license for any music you play in earshot of the public, whether it is your own or even if it comes from Wikimedia on a Commons license.

Did I mention - we are being taken for a ride?

Oh - and you have to PAY for the CD (which is actually a licence fee and a bit of plastic) for the music you want to play. I have paid loads for my music collection

What suckers we all are

 

[reggiemental]

By the way, I think you need a license for any music you play in earshot of the public, whether it is your own or even if it comes from Wikimedia on a Commons license.

If that statement is true, then the whole system sucks.

I compose and record my own stuff, which is made freely available across the net. I also use it for my company music-on-hold facility, so if I'm expected to pay for the 'privilege', then I can only assume I'll be receiving royalties in return, which I very much doubt will ever happen. So I wonder who would be benefitting from my payment, should I wish to make it? Certainly not the original composer/artist, as that's me.

I've no qualms with artists receiving their just rewards, as long as it's fair.

 

[firefly22]

I have a retail outlet and played "background" CDs. I received a letter from the PRS informing me that unless I paid the annual fee I would be prosecuted. So they must have eyes and ears everywhere!

 

[ChristopherP]

A Scottish branch of Kwik Fit were taken to court by the Performing Rights Society www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2200834/kwik-fit-sued-playing-radio

You'll probably require both a PPL licence and a PRS licence. The PPL licence can cost as little as 14 pence per day.

Have you thought about having a small group or a singer songwriter in your premises to entertain your customers occasionally?

 

[serendipitybusiness]

I haven't read all of the replies on this thread so somebody may have already given you the information. However, I remember reading a thread where someone had received a demand for payment for playing his radio in a closed office. As the public didn't go in there he was going to dispute it, however, others posted saying they had also received demands, so it looks like they are actively trying to enforce these fees.

So the answer to your question is yes, you will have to get a licence or they may well just send you the invoice automatically.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news :redface:

 

[ChristopherP]

I haven't read all of the replies on this thread so somebody may have already given you the information. However, I remember reading a thread where someone had received a demand for payment for playing his radio in a closed office. As the public didn't go in there he was going to dispute it, however, others posted saying they had also received demands, so it looks like they are actively trying to enforce these fees.

So the answer to your question is yes, you will have to get a licence or they may well just send you the invoice automatically.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news :redface:

It could be good news for musicians as they may receive more royalties. Shop keepers don't like shoplifters ... unlicensed music being played in any form in business premises is the same as shop lifting and deprives many musicians of a part of their income.

 

[serendipitybusiness]

I agree Christopher, unfortunately its not the musicians that get the bulk of the royalties though is it. Do you think this law would still apply if you made a contract with unsigned artists giving you permission to play their music in a public arena ie your shop. After all it is exposure for them so they may be open to it. Especially if you sell their CDs for them as well.

 

[silklink]

Agree with serendipitybusiness. I also record my own music (none published yet though - too busy running a shop). The fact is most musicians do music because they love it. Money is a bonus. It is in fact the record companies that rob musicians and us of most of the money. Thankfully, many musician are selling or even giving away their music on the web in order to gain publicity and fill gigs with paying punters.

 

[Goodegging]

So am I right in understanding here that
A) the radio station has to aquire a licence to play the music over the air waves to the general public #
B) the shop keeper also has to have a PPL licence to play the music for which the radio station has already paid for

Surely, the radio stations licence has paid the royaltiesa so the businesses playing the radios dont have too otherwise paying for the same thingh twice!!!!


So what happens if you are watching a TV that is in view of the public too - do you then need an entertainment licence?




Its just one invoice after another these days. Bills. Bills. Bills