Planning Permission for a New Business

[dmarshall]

Hi, I'm about to make my first offer for my first commercial property lease and I'm wondering how best to work around the change of use I need. The property is currently B1 and I would need D1. It's for a small music school, teaching kids how to sing, play guitar, piano and drums etc.

I've already had a nod from the local planning department, who said it *should* be fine, so I'm just going to go straight ahead and apply for the change. The question is - do I have to wait for this to come through before I can begin operations? Because 8-12 weeks of rent, rates and utilities would set me back a huge amount, especially when I could have the building ready to open in a matter of days after getting the keys.

Is it common to make an offer on a property pending planning permission? Because, unfortunately, I don't think this building is going to be around long and I've already been waiting for 7 months for something suitable to come along.

Any advise would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Ashley_Price]

As long as you're not planning to make any major changes to the fabric of the building in the meantime you should okay. However, is there likely to be any noise from the music school that could upset or annoy close neighbours? If there are people close by you might just want to alert them to what you're planning on doing.

 

[dmarshall]

The planning permission is only for the change of use - I'll barely be changing the building at all. There aren't any residential neighbours and noise won't be much of an issue - most of the teaching is done at speech volume (excluding drums). The landlord owns the closest building and he's already been notified of the nature of the business, so I shouldn't have any issues on that side.

The only thing I'd be worried about is starting the business and then getting some kind of cease and desist order from the council because I haven't been granted planning permission yet.

 

[Ashley_Price]

Until May, I served on the Lewes town council's planning committee. Now, although all towns are different, to be honest, unless neighbours (either residential or business) start to complain to the council about noise problems, there shouldn't be a problem.

However, don't take my opinion as official advice.

 

[Andrew Chambers]

I'd definitely not take on a lease without the correct use already in place. You could easily end up paying x years rent, rates and utilities for a unit you can't use. Simply not worth the risk, and retrospective planning permission (which is effectively what you would be applying for) can be more troublesome to obtain.

Get the correct class of use before signing the contract. Or at least a clause that the lease is terminated if the change of use isn't granted.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

You need to see a solicitor who is current with this side of the business and get him to draw up a letter to agree to the lease terms but only on condition the approval is given otherwise the lease is annulled,

Hunting 7 months can make you rush into things as the only answer, still far better to lose the lease than get lumbered with something you cannot use

 

[estwig]

Among other planning related things I do change of use for a living. Change of use is a very big issue to planning, don't trust them that it will be ok, unofficial advice is not binding on them in anyway at all.
Don't trust them I have seem them ruin businesses by not granting change of use. You can't do anything until you have the grant of planning permission.

Negotiate with your prospective landlord on the basis of gaining approval.

 

[estwig]

Until May, I served on the Lewes town council's planning committee. Now, although all towns are different, to be honest, unless neighbours (either residential or business) start to complain to the council about noise problems, there shouldn't be a problem.

However, don't take my opinion as official advice.

That is terrible advice, you really shouldn't be saying that to people. Serving on a planning committee is a World away from decisions made at case officer level, which the majority are and you wouldn't know anything about them at committee.

 

[Ashley_Price]

That is terrible advice,

It wasn't advice, it was my opinion - it clearly states that!

 

[estwig]

It wasn't advice, it was my opinion - it clearly states that!

It's a very wrong opinion and you shouldn't make it known. Stick to bits of paper, prit sticks and stationery supplies.

 

[dmarshall]

Thanks for all your answers. I thought this might be the general consensus, unfortunately! I will definitely speak to my solicitor about inserting a clause that annuls the contract without planning permission. Hopefully the landlord will find this acceptable.

The other question is would it be unwise to have a small, quiet start to the business before planning permission is granted? What's a worst case scenario here?

 

[Andrew Chambers]

As you'll be applying for retrospective planning it'll make no difference, in fact probably to your advantage to go for "all singing and dancing" so they can see how you'll be operating.

Be aware that change of use will most often be denied because your businesses doesn't fit in with what the use the district council (not town) have in mind for that particular area.

 

[dmarshall]

As you'll be applying for retrospective planning it'll make no difference, in fact probably to your advantage to go for "all singing and dancing" so they can see how you'll be operating.

Be aware that change of use will most often be denied because your businesses doesn't fit in with what the use the district council (not town) have in mind for that particular area.

So you wouldn't have thought I'd get shut down by starting before planning permission has been accepted - pending the change of use? I imagined it would be a risky thing to do.

 

[Andrew Chambers]

Retrospective is just that, you won't be denied permission, or told to cease trading, until the planning decision is made.

As I said before though, don't do it as the risk is to great.

 

[hipwuk]

Unfortunately this is the conundrum many prospective lessees face when it comes to change of use classification. Applying for change of use can be long and costly process - we are talking months here, and if unsuccessful you could lose out on £££. How long is the lease? If it is a long lease, the landlord may be willing to negotiate a deal with you. Some landlords are reticent about changing the use classification - for one, it takes time. Second, changing the licence from one classification to another can alter the rental value of the property. For example, changing from A1 (e.g. cafe) to A5 (e.g. restaurant) licence can increase the rental value of the property. If you were changing it backwards for example, it may devalue the property and some landlords are wary of this.

Saying that, it appears the landlord and planning department are aware of your intentions and you are starting off on a good note. Strike a deal with the landlord - i.e. you pay him a proportionate amount of rent whilst you are apply for change of use, and commit to the lease if successful. If he doesn't budge and funds allow for it, offer to compensate him for his time and re-marketing of the property if you are unsuccessful.

 

[hipwuk]

Oh in answer to your question about making an offer pending planning permission - it does happen and I know people who have been successful. It all depends on the deal you strike with the landlord.

 

[estwig]

What is the matter with you people, giving out advice about planning when you know absolutely nothing about it. Rubbish about retrospective applications, district councils, town councils, all utter rubbish.

The property currently has B1 usage, which very simply put is light industrial usage and you want to change to D1, I think you might actually want D2, but this would need clarification.

If you start this business without PP you will get a cease and desist order from planning enforcement, if you don't comply, ultimately you will be stopped. Planning take this kinda thing very seriously.

 

[Andrew Chambers]

What is the matter with you people, giving out advice about planning when you know absolutely nothing about it. Rubbish about retrospective applications, district councils, town councils, all utter rubbish.

The property currently has B1 usage, which very simply put is light industrial usage and you want to change to D1, I think you might actually want D2, but this would need clarification.

If you start this business without PP you will get a cease and desist order from planning enforcement, if you don't comply, ultimately you will be stopped. Planning take this kinda thing very seriously.

You'd be wrong there Estwig. Costa Coffee for one regularly open without the correct usage and apply retrospectively. I've got a friend who has recently added a coffee shop to her retail outlet and is applying retrospectively.

Obviously when planning has been denied then you get the cease and desist.

As I've said all along though, I wouldn't recommend any one does it.

Town councils have sod all power when it comes to planning, that's dealt with by the district council and their case officers. Or the planning inspectorate on appeal.

 

[estwig]

You'd be wrong there Estwig. Costa Coffee for one regularly open without the correct usage and apply retrospectively. I've got a friend who has recently added a coffee shop to her retail outlet and is applying retrospectively.

Obviously when planning has been denied then you get the cease and desist.

As I've said all along though, I wouldn't recommend any one does it.

Town councils have sod all power when it comes to planning, that's dealt with by the district council and their case officers. Or the planning inspectorate on appeal.

Your are right in some circumstances, it really depends on the change of use applied for. If it is a major change of use then planning enforcement will get involved, before retrospective planning is applied for.

The costa example is a minor change of use that would almost certainly go ahead, so planning don't get too excited about it.

I have seen planning destroy businesses and people's dreams of a great home because the correct procedure was not followed, or someone was arrogant enough to just got for it anyway and not bother with planning permission. The money lost by individuals in these circumstances can be huge.