Part time employee holiday

[R.Anders]

Hi

Hope you guys will know the answer.

We are a small business, and so far only had full time employees. Now we are a part time employee (12-13hr per week over 4 days) starting.

1. How many days holiday should they get per year (our full time employees get 28).
2. When they take 1 day of holiday, is it 8hrs (=2.5 days because they only work part time) or 1 day? for example, they want to be off one the Monday where they have 3 hours normally. Do I deduct 1 day of holiday for that?
3. Do they accrue the holidays as they gain more time with the company or do they get them on day 1 (so for example if they are entitled to 10 days, can they theoretically ask them one week two of their employment)

Thank you!

 

[Newchodge]

I take it your full time employees work 5 days/week and the 28 days include bank holidays.

Your full time employees are getting the statutory minimum holiday entitlement, 5.6 weeks.

Your part time staff are also entitled to 5,6 weeks. If you want to express that in days then it is 22.4 days for a 4 day week, 16.8 days for a 3 day week. 11.2 days for a 2 day wek and 5.6 days for a 1 day week.

Ignore bank holidays completely. Look at it this way. Your 4 day/week employee works 4 days during the bank holiday week, they have taken 0 holiday. If they work 3 days that week they have taken 1 day holiday. If they have the whole week off they have taken 1 week or 4 days. If they work different hours on different days, regularly, it is slightly different. If they work different hours on different days variably it is very different.

Every employee accrues their first month's worth of holidays on their first day, and an additional month's worth every month after. After their first year they accrue their entire year's holiday on day 1.

You can always refuse to allow someone to take holiday as long as you ensure they are enabled to take their whole entitlement within the year.

 

[R.Anders]

I take it your full time employees work 5 days/week and the 28 days include bank holidays.

Your full time employees are getting the statutory minimum holiday entitlement, 5.6 weeks.

Your part time staff are also entitled to 5,6 weeks. If you want to express that in days then it is 22.4 days for a 4 day week, 16.8 days for a 3 day week. 11.2 days for a 2 day wek and 5.6 days for a 1 day week.

Ignore bank holidays completely. Look at it this way. Your 4 day/week employee works 4 days during the bank holiday week, they have taken 0 holiday. If they work 3 days that week they have taken 1 day holiday. If they have the whole week off they have taken 1 week or 4 days. If they work different hours on different days, regularly, it is slightly different. If they work different hours on different days variably it is very different.

Every employee accrues their first month's worth of holidays on their first day, and an additional month's worth every month after. After their first year they accrue their entire year's holiday on day 1.

You can always refuse to allow someone to take holiday as long as you ensure they are enabled to take their whole entitlement within the year.

Our full time employees work 5 days, 7.5hrs per day, yes.

What I still don't understand is:
From your reply it seems that a 4 day/week employee that works 8hrs per day is entitled to the same amount of days holiday per year as a 4 day/week emplyee that only works 3 hrs per day - is that correct?

In practical terms, if this new employee works 3 hrs on Monday and Wednesday, 2 hrs on Tuesday and 4 on Thursday and they want to go on holiday for the whole week, how many days should I take off? 4?

 

[Newchodge]

Our full time employees work 5 days, 7.5hrs per day, yes.

What I still don't understand is:
From your reply it seems that a 4 day/week employee that works 8hrs per day is entitled to the same amount of days holiday per year as a 4 day/week emplyee that only works 3 hrs per day - is that correct?

In practical terms, if this new employee works 3 hrs on Monday and Wednesday, 2 hrs on Tuesday and 4 on Thursday and they want to go on holiday for the whole week, how many days should I take off? 4?

Question 1 Yes

Question 2. 4. Or 1 week. Which is the same thing. Everyone gets 5.6 weeks' holiday, but they get a different number of days if they work a different number of days/week.

You need to try not to think about hours. A 4 day/week person gets paid for a whole week @ 4 days/week. If they take a week's holiday they get the same pay as if they worked the week .

It is drastically more complicated if they work different hours on different days or completely variable hours/days. If you can do it all in weeks, it is better.

 

[IanSuth]

It is drastically more complicated if they work different hours on different days or completely variable hours/days. If you can do it all in weeks, it is better.

If you really have to work on hours think of it like this

In a full year a ft worker works 46.4 weeks and has 5.6 weeks holiday. that is 12.07%

So you could accrue holiday for your PT worker at 12.07% of the hours they work and use that for calculations (proviso: it is not quite that easy because you have to ensure they take their holiday and if you pay overtime rates it is a complete pain in the whatsits - but it is good enough to show to staff and have them all feel they are getting the same deal as each other

 

[Newchodge]

If you really have to work on hours think of it like this

In a full year a ft worker works 46.4 weeks and has 5.6 weeks holiday. that is 12.07%

So you could accrue holiday for your PT worker at 12.07% of the hours they work and use that for calculations (proviso: it is not quite that easy because you have to ensure they take their holiday and if you pay overtime rates it is a complete pain in the whatsits - but it is good enough to show to staff and have them all feel they are getting the same deal as each other

Except 12.07% has been declared unlawful. You absolutely cannot use this method.

 

[Dave Boatman]

Except 12.07% has been declared unlawful. You absolutely cannot use this method.

This was the method we used at a previous company, when did this happen?

 

[Newchodge]

This was the method we used at a previous company, when did this happen?

2018. It was confirmed by the Supreme Court last year. Harpur Trust v Brazell.

 

[Duke Fame]

Question 1 Yes

Question 2. 4. Or 1 week. Which is the same thing. Everyone gets 5.6 weeks' holiday, but they get a different number of days if they work a different number of days/week.

You need to try not to think about hours. A 4 day/week person gets paid for a whole week @ 4 days/week. If they take a week's holiday they get the same pay as if they worked the week .

It is drastically more complicated if they work different hours on different days or completely variable hours/days. If you can do it all in weeks, it is better.

That's my understanding too but what happens when you have someone on part time hours who may often do extra hours (say a university student who has more time available in the summer)

 

[Newchodge]

That's my understanding too but what happens when you have someone on part time hours who may often do extra hours (say a university student who has more time available in the summer)

The holiday entitlement stays the same but the rate of holiday pay is averaged over the previous 52 worked weeks, ignoring any weeks without work.

 

[IanSuth]

Except 12.07% has been declared unlawful. You absolutely cannot use this method.

Effectively it is what you did when you said this - i was talking about amount of time not average amount of pay (you can still average that over the 52 weeks)

Your part time staff are also entitled to 5,6 weeks. If you want to express that in days then it is 22.4 days for a 4 day week, 16.8 days for a 3 day week. 11.2 days for a 2 day wek and 5.6 days for a 1 day week.

 

[Newchodge]

Effectively it is what you did when you said this

Your part time staff are also entitled to 5,6 weeks. If you want to express that in days then it is 22.4 days for a 4 day week, 16.8 days for a 3 day week. 11.2 days for a 2 day wek and 5.6 days for a 1 day week.

? How is that the 12.07% method, which, effectively allows holiday for hours worked but not for weeks when employed and not working? It is a particular problem for those who don't work every week.

If you have (unlikely, but it makes the arithmetic simpler) who is emplyed permanently, but only works 1 week every year. For that 1 week they earn £1000. Using the 12.07% method they would receive £120.70 holiday pay. Using the required 56 week, average of 52 weeks worked, pay, they would get £5,600 holiday pay.

 

[IanSuth]

? How is that the 12.07% method, which, effectively allows holiday for hours worked but not for weeks when employed and not working? It is a particular problem for those who don't work every week.

If you have (unlikely, but it makes the arithmetic simpler) who is emplyed permanently, but only works 1 week every year. For that 1 week they earn £1000. Using the 12.07% method they would receive £120.70 holiday pay. Using the required 56 week, average of 52 weeks worked, pay, they would get £5,600 holiday pay.

Because under my method

if they work 1 week they earn 12.07 of a week of holiday

Averaging their pay over 52 weeks you get 1000/52 = £19.23 per week of pay then you can pay them 5.6weeks holiday = £107.70

 

[IanSuth]

This is not really an equivalent to Harper vs Brazell as the workers work all year and not with big holiday gaps - it was the part year working which meant that 12.07% was not a good approximation.

Basically as the judge agreed what constituted a day (or weeks) holiday pay should be based off weeks worked not all weeks. If the OP's workers work all non holiday weeks of the year then you can use 12.07% safely, if they take of holidays or other periods then you can't

 

[Newchodge]

This is not really an equivalent to Harper vs Brazell as the workers work all year and not with big holiday gaps - it was the part year working which meant that 12.07% was not a good approximation.

Basically as the judge agreed what constituted a day (or weeks) holiday pay should be based off weeks worked not all weeks. If the OP's workers work all non holiday weeks of the year then you can use 12.07% safely, if they take of holidays or other periods then you can't

For someone who works all year round with variable hours, using 12.07% gives a higher figure than the legal method, as 12.07% takes into account that full time people do not work 52.14 weeks to get 5.6 weeks holiday, but only 47.54 weeks.

The government is consulting on how to sort this out, but until they do it is not safe to use the wrong method.It is likely that they will end up using 12.07 of hours actually worked AND, possibly 52 week average pay. However I have a niggly feeling that will involve double counting. My maths isn't up to working out if it would.

 

[Newchodge]

Because under my method

if they work 1 week they earn 12.07 of a week of holiday

Averaging their pay over 52 weeks you get 1000/52 = £19.23 per week of pay then you can pay them 5.6weeks holiday = £107.70

But you average only the 52 worked weeks, so 1,000/1 = 1,000.

 

[IanSuth]

For someone who works all year round with variable hours, using 12.07% gives a higher figure than the legal method, as 12.07% takes into account that full time people do not work 52.14 weeks to get 5.6 weeks holiday, but only 47.54 weeks.

The government is consulting on how to sort this out, but until they do it is not safe to use the wrong method.It is likely that they will end up using 12.07 of hours actually worked AND, possibly 52 week average pay. However I have a niggly feeling that will involve double counting. My maths isn't up to working out if it would.

Which is why i used

12.07 of hours actually worked AND 52 week average pay as that is most likely and with the fact the OP's workers appear to be permanent PT workers working most weeks of the year just with variable hours it is likely the safest way currently and the one easiest to explain to workers in a way they don't think anyone is being diddled

If you want complicated maths start dealing with temps in a place where the normal leave is not 28 days, as soon as the temp hits 12 weeks they have to have parity of pay and benefits with perm equivalents. But no one has yet decided how that works with Harper v Brazell and what the interactions are so everyone is guessing with the more fly by nights seeing how much they can screw people out of and the more conscientious being at a competitive disadvantage as they try and play fair

 

[Newchodge]

12.07 of hours actually worked AND 52 week average pay as that is most likely and with the fact the OP's workers appear to be permanent PT workers working most weeks of the year just with variable hours it is likely the safest way currently and the one easiest to explain to workers in a way they don't think anyone is being diddled

No. It is not. 5.6 weeks is the legal entitlement and for someone working regular days/hours it is simple.

 

[IanSuth]

No. It is not. 5.6 weeks is the legal entitlement and for someone working regular days/hours it is simple.

Sorry i thought he said not regular - some weeks 3 days some 4

Just checked and straight 4 day week so actually very simple. Just deal in weeks but a week is smaller

 

[Newchodge]

He said not regular - some weeks 3 days some 4

No, he said 12-13 hours over 4 days.

12.07% was specifically declared unlawful in the supreme Court judgment. There is no defence to using it.

 

[IanSuth]

No, he said 12-13 hours over 4 days.

12.07% was specifically declared unlawful in the supreme Court judgment. There is no defence to using it.

There is no defence to using it for wages but it is still what you use for working out the number of days.

When you say you accrue 28 days (otherwise known as 5.6 weeks) in a year you are using 12.07% that is just maths - judges cant overrule maths

 

[Newchodge]

There is no defence to using it for wages but it is still what you use for working out the number of days.

When you say you accrue 28 days (otherwise known as 5.6 weeks) in a year you are using 12.07% that is just maths - judges cant overrule maths

You are using a circular argument. The law states that the entitlement is 5.6 weeks, capped @ 28 days, so fewer weeks if you work 6 days/week. If you take 5.6 weeks from 52.14 weeks (46.54 weeks) and divide it by 365 days, you get 12.07%. That is the reason why 12.07 was previously used. Not the other way around.

 

[IanSuth]

You are using a circular argument. The law states that the entitlement is 5.6 weeks, capped @ 28 days, so fewer weeks if you work 6 days/week. If you take 5.6 weeks from 52.14 weeks (46.54 weeks) and divide it by 365 days, you get 12.07%. That is the reason why 12.07 was previously used. Not the other way around.

Which is why you use it to work out the days, you just cant anymore use it to work out pure wages for those days. So you can no longer use it in the raw form for people working variable hours or at variable rates which is what i meant in my original statement when i said this (for this employer with staff doing a regular 4 days a week it is fine to use the 12.07 - i put in the proviso to point out that it does not work in all circumstances anymore)


"So you could accrue holiday for your PT worker at 12.07% of the hours they work and use that for calculations (proviso: it is not quite that easy because you have to ensure they take their holiday and if you pay overtime rates it is a complete pain in the whatsits)"