As far as professionally qualified accountants are concerned they will have given you a complaints procedure as part of their engagement letter including escalation to their institute where appropriate.
Where unqualifieds are concerned you take pot luck
You beat me to it Alan - that was going to be my next comment when the OP replied
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And as per usual not ONE of you have told him who that body may be
Smoke and mirrors you lot. Smoke and mirrors.
Try this for a first link.
http://www.icaew.com/en/about-icaew...rest/protecting-the-public/complaints-process
Smoke and mirrors you lot. Smoke and mirrors.
Try this for a first link.
http://www.icaew.com/en/about-icaew...rest/protecting-the-public/complaints-process
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A totally unfair comment. The accountants have asked whether the accountant is qualified and if so whether there is an engagement letter, in which case there would have been a complaints procedure. The OP has chosen to not respond to that question, which makes it very difficult to give advice. Your link is completely useless unless the accountant is a member of ICAEW. There is not an ombudsman for accountants.And as per usual not ONE of you have told him who that body may be
Smoke and mirrors you lot. Smoke and mirrors.http://www.icaew.com/en/about-icaew...rest/protecting-the-public/complaints-process
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Absolute rubbish.
The first reply could have been as follows:
If you accountant is Chartered then try this ......... or this ..... or if he belongs to no official body then ......
If someone asked "What's 101 + 101" on here the answer they would probably receive is "Well are you working in decimal or binary?" Rather than "It's 202 or 10 depending on whether you're using decimal or binary."
The first reply could have been as follows:
If you accountant is Chartered then try this ......... or this ..... or if he belongs to no official body then ......
If someone asked "What's 101 + 101" on here the answer they would probably receive is "Well are you working in decimal or binary?" Rather than "It's 202 or 10 depending on whether you're using decimal or binary."
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K
kjmcculloch
- Original Poster
- #9
What a ridiculous reply. As has already been stated there are many professional bodies for accountants, and some accountants trading under none of these.
What, then, is the use of saying your accountant might belong to one of these and listing all the bodies with their website. When, in fact, we all know they may actually belong to none of them.
I'm sure when the OP replies more assistance will be forthcoming.
Kris
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Why is it ridiculous? Plenty of other types of question on here are answered that way. It takes all of a minute longer to provide some options and then depart happy in the knowledge that help has been provided in some form.
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Thanks for the sage advice (no pun intended) but:
A. I don't sit on here all day.
B. I'm happy to help with absolutely no chance of gaining a new client from anything I say.
C. Every post that someone makes about doing their own Limited Company books gets a "go get yourself an Chartered Accountant and stop doing it yourself" reply.
D. Does that then fall under the same category of irrelevance then since the only fact I have in response to the query is that they do not have an accountant?
A. I don't sit on here all day.
B. I'm happy to help with absolutely no chance of gaining a new client from anything I say.
C. Every post that someone makes about doing their own Limited Company books gets a "go get yourself an Chartered Accountant and stop doing it yourself" reply.
D. Does that then fall under the same category of irrelevance then since the only fact I have in response to the query is that they do not have an accountant?
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Early replies clearly stated complain to the professional body to which the accountant belongs, if any.
It would be easier to ask the accountant involved which body s/he belonged to.
However, as it has been asked, there is a choice of many, including:
ICAEW
ACCA
CIMA
AAT
ATT
CIOT
IAB
ICB
AIA
IFA
They are all self-regulating (I believe) so the only thing to do is to find out which one regulates the accountant in question - if they are a member of a body and thus regulated.
It would be easier to ask the accountant involved which body s/he belonged to.
However, as it has been asked, there is a choice of many, including:
ICAEW
ACCA
CIMA
AAT
ATT
CIOT
IAB
ICB
AIA
IFA
They are all self-regulating (I believe) so the only thing to do is to find out which one regulates the accountant in question - if they are a member of a body and thus regulated.
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Your frustration is actually understandable (but yes it did sound like you'd had a bad day
Seconded. However.... It ain't never gonna happen!! :/
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Your frustration is actually understandable (but yes it did sound like you'd had a bad day
I don't see how creating a monopoly would help the accountant or the client?
My advice to OP would be to try and settle things with the accountant face to face, amicably and reasonably, if that doesn't work to mutual satisfaction ask for their complaints procedure and issue a formal letter of complaint, if that doesn't work then see who they are regulated by and complain to them. If unqualified then seek redress through the courts. If there has been a loss suffered as a result of a failed duty of care then go for negligence.
As with any dispute though, it's always better to start off with a conciliatory approach over a table, it may not be them that's wrong.
Can you out more details on here if you are comfortable doing so?
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Lets be honest though. Of all the bodies out there, the main ones are:
ICAEW (ACA)
ACCA
CIMA
CIPFA
And of those above, the only ones that really overlap are ICAEW and ACCA with the practice market. The others all deal with different functions within their profession (management accounts and public finance accounts).
A lot of the other qualifications quoted are either bookkeeping or tax specialists, or financial advisors, which arn't, actually accountants. They just happen to be qualifications which an accountant will also have, either as a pre requisit of their main qualification, or in addittion to it.
Back to the poster however. You need to know what (if any) professional body they belong to and then complain through them. You might consider the FRC if they were not a member, but I'm not sure if they only cover "qualifieds" http://www.frc.org.uk/aadb/about/ . If the issue was something like fraud/money laundering however, contact the police.
ICAEW (ACA)
ACCA
CIMA
CIPFA
And of those above, the only ones that really overlap are ICAEW and ACCA with the practice market. The others all deal with different functions within their profession (management accounts and public finance accounts).
A lot of the other qualifications quoted are either bookkeeping or tax specialists, or financial advisors, which arn't, actually accountants. They just happen to be qualifications which an accountant will also have, either as a pre requisit of their main qualification, or in addittion to it.
Back to the poster however. You need to know what (if any) professional body they belong to and then complain through them. You might consider the FRC if they were not a member, but I'm not sure if they only cover "qualifieds" http://www.frc.org.uk/aadb/about/ . If the issue was something like fraud/money laundering however, contact the police.
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DFL I quite agree with your suggestion for resolving the dispute, it's SO much better to deal with any complaint in this manner in my opinion too.
With regards to having one body which regulates accountants, yes I do think it would have huge benefit to the public but cant imagine how it could work in practice or be regulated. As accountants we arent perhaps the best people to be forming opinions on this but personally trying to sit on the other side of the fence I think it must be extremely confusing having a professional who doesnt need to be qualified, and then having so many different professional bodies for those that are qualified each of which have their own rules.
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I dont want to go off at a tangent here but no I disagree strongly and think your post is actually quite insulting to some accountants who are extremely able and competent and qualified with other bodies eg AAT.
I think many CIMA members would disagree with you too many of whom run practices.
With respect your post just highlights the ignorance of the general public with regards to my profession.
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Hi Nicola
In answer to your post. I threw an olive branch out there last night by apologising for the tone of my remarks. It's a sad fact that in general the ability to step up and say sorry is a skill that is lacking in today's society. However I was brought up in the belief that there is no shame in admitting that you are wrong.
Dealing with your points in a reasoned manner.
Whether an accountant is qualified or not makes very little difference to how they conduct their business from a "business" perspective. My post might be "insulting" to some of those people but let's look at it in depth.
Accountants as a whole are a qualified bunch of technical people, I'm sure we would not disagree on that point. Technicians as a whole are often people who concentrate on their skill, do a lot of homework and research on their particular field of knowledge and aim to be the best at what they do.
That doesn't mean that they are automatically great communicators by default, and as technicians they are as likely to be (as ANY technicians are) more involved in the mechanics of their profession than the other areas.
To come back to you on your comment about "the ignorance of the general public with regards to my profession." I would have to ask that if that is the case then firstly where have they got their opinions from?
The standing jokes that have been around for decades about accountants and personality didn't arise from nothing. Whether they are right or wrong I'm not here to judge, but if you look at the average perception of an IT technician (no matter how highly qualified) then you often hear the words geek and various other slang phrases. Again are people right or wrong? That is their perception. If it needs altering then the "general public" cannot do anything to do this can they?
I socialise with accountants who are friends, I employ an accountant, and they are the first people to admit that they are often so focused upon the technical issues they are dealing with, that their interpersonal skills in business take a back seat and could do with some improvement.
There are many many accountants who are technically brilliant but lack the core skills to be a businessperson- very much akin to your average IT techie.
Oh and please don't lambast me for comparing the two in one sentence as there are a large quantity of IT techies who like accountants have trained for years and years, whilst obtaining a whole host of professional qualifications that allow them to carry out their roles.
It's a different area of expertise nothing more.
The core of why I "went off on one" last night (whilst being wrong to do so in that way) is that for the time I have been on this forum, the common theme has been that it appears quite hard to get a straight answer when asking questions of accountants.
That's my experience and I'm not alone. I'm perfectly entitled to have that opinion just as you are perfectly entitled to be offended by it. I also feel that whilst many of the other contributors on here seem to be willing to go through different areas of the forum and help out, and offer advice from life experience (or qualification) the number of accountants who do this is extremely limited. Is it because they are using the forum as a business opportunity exclusively? I cannot answer that but that is their choice and that's fine.
I have been in accountants offices that are good, and bad. Always Chartered Accountants incidentally. Most firms appear to concentrate on the technical, and even though more accountants appear to be becoming "business savvy" this is a percentage that in my humble opinion needs to increase.
It's great to have the numbers presented to you but it's even better to have someone explain WHY those numbers mean what they mean and who pro-actively helps you financially plan and make more money later on.
Too many accountants still appear to work on the mushroom theory of managing their clients i.e. keep them in the dark and uneducated. That is something that personally again I would like to see change.
My experience of accountants comes from 14.5 years of running a company that is now a multi million pound per annum operation so it's hardly "lay experience" having engaged a number of these firms over the years.
I feel that I therefore have enough experience of the Profession to have, and voice, a personal opinion on the subject. I know it would never happen but it would be incredible to see a thread with a topic like "What can we do to make ourselves more accessible and attractive to prospective clients and what can we do to improve our service?" I think you might see some great feedback on such a thread.
Anyway I've written a complete wall of text here, and I hope that I've presented my points in a reasoned manner. Again my apologies for my wording last night.
Yours
Jon
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Hi Jon
Its actually super to get an non-accountants view and I very much respect and appreciate what you say.
I've been an accountant for a long time now and as such its very easy to loose site of what is important sometimes and your comments are a good reminder.
Thank you very much for taking the time to post such a detailed response.
Its actually super to get an non-accountants view and I very much respect and appreciate what you say.
I've been an accountant for a long time now and as such its very easy to loose site of what is important sometimes and your comments are a good reminder.
Thank you very much for taking the time to post such a detailed response.
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Now that's a challenge I will take up - I'll post it now
I'm going to post it in the general forum so that we get some views from non-accountants.
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Not really clear why you have taken some sort of a fit about this as all I have done is state the facts about what these various letters mean, which up untill now I think people have been trying use to blind every one else with science.
I disagree with you. AAT is for accounting technicians. This is fine for those who prepare accounts, but it is not sufficient for signing an audit report, nor is it sufficient for the compilation of large sets of groups, or businesses with complex disclosure requirements. I should know, I used to work for GT.
Lets put it another way. When I still worked in practice, we put the starters on AAT when they entered at 18 (assuming they wern't university graduates). They'd complete this qualification while working on small accounts preparation (1-2 years), and then once they'd completed it, would move on to audit assisting, at which point they would usually start on ACCA or ACA. I'm not actually knocking it at a route as some of the most successful people I know qualified like this, but if you are saying that AAT is the same level as a chartered qualification, trust me, you're wrong. AAT is the equivalent of somewhere between A level and HND, ACCA/ACA are the equivalent of a masters degree.
Not quite sure what your issue is with CIMA. What I said was that it is a different qualification for a different job, which it is. I've seen plenty of management accountants and what they do day to day is completely different from practice accountants, thats just a fact of life. They can cross over, particularly at the small end of the practice market with accounts preparation work, but you see much less of this in larger firms as CIMA is not sufficient to sign an audit report. Thats not snobbery, its the law..... and the reason for that put simply is that the qualification has different content. It has nothing to do with one being more superior to the other, as you seem to be trying to imply I said, they are just different. The reality is that you probably find more practice accountants moving into industry because the money is better and the work is often considered more interesting.
In addittion to the above though, you also have the qualified by experience people. Lots of people are suspicious of these people (possibly with good reason), although I should admit that the only senior I ever worked with who had an answer to every question I could think of, was infact a QBE. The reason he was that was that he timed out on his qualification due to illness, but owing to his level of experience, he was so useful to the firm that there was never any question of getting rid of him. I can think of one or two other examples as well. Its like one ACA partner in a small practice said to me once "you don't necessarily need to be qualified, but it will get you where you want to go quicker, and will allow you to do more things".
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Originally Posted by internetspaceships 
......I know it would never happen but it would be incredible to see a thread with a topic like "What can we do to make ourselves more accessible and attractive to prospective clients and what can we do to improve our service?" I think you might see some great feedback on such a thread.
Funny you should say that I wrote one just two days ago for accountants.....
http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/topic/practice/10-ways-improve-client-relations/510506
......I know it would never happen but it would be incredible to see a thread with a topic like "What can we do to make ourselves more accessible and attractive to prospective clients and what can we do to improve our service?" I think you might see some great feedback on such a thread.
Funny you should say that I wrote one just two days ago for accountants.....
http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/topic/practice/10-ways-improve-client-relations/510506
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10 Ways to improve client relations
One of the main challenges facing accountants is their ability to empathise with their clients, to understand their problems, and to address any concerns before they become an area for dispute.
AccountingWeb is full of posts from concerned accountants, asking for advice on how to solve a delicate situation with a disgruntled client. The recent economic climate has only added to the potential for dispute as clients expect more from their accountants than maybe they have in the past.
There will always be the risk of misunderstandings between accountant and client, and even with the best procedures and people skills, at some time or other you will be faced with a dissatisfied client. The trick is to minimise the risk of this occurring.
Here are ten steps that could help improve client relations, generate more referrals, and minimise the worry and risk of having an unhappy client.
By taking the steps outlined above you will hopefully find that your clients are happier, which will not only help avoid conflict but also help generate more referrals and create a more rewarding and profitable practice for you.
Jason Dormer
Seahorse (UK) Ltd For Accountants & Bookkeepers
www.seahorseuk.co.uk
One of the main challenges facing accountants is their ability to empathise with their clients, to understand their problems, and to address any concerns before they become an area for dispute.
AccountingWeb is full of posts from concerned accountants, asking for advice on how to solve a delicate situation with a disgruntled client. The recent economic climate has only added to the potential for dispute as clients expect more from their accountants than maybe they have in the past.
There will always be the risk of misunderstandings between accountant and client, and even with the best procedures and people skills, at some time or other you will be faced with a dissatisfied client. The trick is to minimise the risk of this occurring.
Here are ten steps that could help improve client relations, generate more referrals, and minimise the worry and risk of having an unhappy client.
- Use the initial consultation to find out as much as possible about what the client wants and expects from his or her accountant. Some clients will want to see you once a year to do the compliance work, others will want you to act as an unpaid business adviser! Establish what the client wants, and if you can meet the requirements at a price that you are both happy with.
- Also use the initial meeting to weed out any troublemakers. If a potential client has had three accountants in the last three years, and the client views them all as rubbish, there is every chance that the client is the problem and not the previous accountants! Do not be afraid to refuse to take an engagement if you feel that it may be more trouble than it is worth. I do not agree with the price it high approach - a bad client is a bad client no matter what the fee, and is never worth taking on.
- For those clients who are coming to you from an existing accountant, find out why they are leaving them, how their accountant did not meet their expectations, and how you can meet their expectations. Every client is different. I know one client who left their accountant because he was never offered a cup of tea during meetings. I know of another who left because he didnt like the way the accountant ticked off the bank statements using a pen. I myself once made the mistake of using Ms on a tax return rather than Miss. The result? One very unhappy client. Do not underestimate what may seem little to you could be a big issue for the client.
- Once you have been appointed then scope the services in the engagement letter in great detail. Include what will happen for additional services. Do not start additional services until the fee is agreed with the client. Verbally explain engagement letters and price agreements to the client so that they know what they are signing. Issue a change order every time an additional service is required. Some clients will always order a starter then expect a three course meal, without wanting to pay for it. Get it all down in print as a referral document should a fee dispute arise.
- Spot the warning signs early. You can usually tell from the tone of an email or conversation if a client is not pleased. Call the client and resolve any potential trouble before it festers or escalates. Good communication is key.
- Treat all clients with the same courtesy. No one wants to feel unimportant. Give your small clients every level of service as you would your best client. One of the most common complaints about accountants is that they make their smaller clients feel that they are not important to them. This is the quickest way to lose clients and goodwill. Do not make this mistake.
- Call the client before they call you. Always be one step ahead. If there is a new opportunity for the client that he or she is made aware of at the golf course rather than from their accountant then they are not going to be happy!
- Do not assume that no news is good news. Most people will remain silent even if they are not completely satisfied, rather than complain. I am sure that most people reading this have gone to a restaurant and, when asked, said that the food was fine even if it was awful! Ask your clients for good, honest feedback, make them feel comfortable in doing so, and use the results constructively.
- Address any complaints immediately. Gather the full facts and look at the situation logically without using emotion. Talk to a third party if it helps. If you have made a mistake then be honest enough to hold your hands up we all make them. Even if you feel that you are 100% in the right, look at the situation from the clients point of view you are dealing with an emotive issue for them, and they may not fully understand the situation. Talk through the issue face to face with the client and use the opportunity to strengthen your relationship with them. If handled correctly, you could turn the situation to your advantage.
- As mentioned above, you will never be able to please all people all of the time. No matter what steps you take, there are some clients that will make your life a misery, and they usually have all the same traits. They want everything done yesterday, they are rude to you and your staff, they bring everything in late, they are slow payers and price sensitive, and your heart drops when they call! These clients should be educated to change their ways and if they cant or wont change then should be asked to leave immediately. Dont let these clients sap your emotional energy. You can make the process as friendly as possible by explaining to them that you feel unable to meet their expectations and will gladly help them find another, more suitable accountant, and will provide every assistance throughout the handover experience. You can then replace them with a client more deserving of your business there are plenty out there!
By taking the steps outlined above you will hopefully find that your clients are happier, which will not only help avoid conflict but also help generate more referrals and create a more rewarding and profitable practice for you.
Jason Dormer
Seahorse (UK) Ltd For Accountants & Bookkeepers
www.seahorseuk.co.uk
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My sole accounting qualification is AAT and I've run a general accountancy practice for over 7 years
(and am half way through a further tax qualification as well)Given that the definition of a small company is one with a turnover of under ~£5million and a balance sheet of under ~£3million, the majority of limitied companies that many sole practioners deal with do not need an audit. As such, AAT accountants are fully qualified to look after small Ltd Co accounts (and 'small' is a relative term!). I would expect the majority of accountants on here to only or mainly deal with 'small' businesses. So your comments on audit reports and large companies are largely irrelevant to the accountants and businesses on UKBF. I understand that it is relevant to your background, but I think on UKBF you are in the minority in terms of client sizes and requirements.
It is not the case that a small limited company needs a chartered accountant. The different qualifications have different things to offer, but to dismiss one of the leading non-chartered qualifications as unsuitable really does show your lack of understanding of our industry, certainly at the small business end of the spectrum, which applies to most folk on UKBF.
I completely agree with you on this point. Along with most of the accountants on UKBF I expect, this is a key part of my service.
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I assure you I haven't had some sort of 'fit'
I thought, and still think, your post was misleading and unfair making sweeping and incorrect generalisations and assumptions.
I stated I disagree strongly and think your post is actually quite insulting to some accountants who are extremely able and competent and qualified with other bodies eg AAT.
I think many CIMA members would disagree with you too many of whom run practices.
With respect your post just highlights the ignorance of the general public with regards to my profession.
You haven't stated facts you have given your opinion on these professional qualifications - an opinion which is, again with respect one which I would say is incorrect. I say that as an FCCA, ATT and MAAT qualified accountant with 25 years experience.
For the benefit of anyone reading this -
FCCA = Fellow member of the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants
MAAT = Member of the Association of Accounting Technicians
ATT = Member of the Association of Taxation Technicians
I have no desire to enter into a protracted discussion on the merits or otherwise of these professional qualifications and suggest we agree to disagree.
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The vast majority of small accountancy practices these days won't get anywhere near audits nor group accounts etc. Today's small practice is a long way from it was 20-30 years ago when I qualified. In those days, it was virtually impossible to run a practice without being CCAB qualified because EVERY limited company required a statutory audit, however small. In those days, we didn't have the prevalence of tiny one-man firms operating from home or serviced offices etc.
These days, very few practices have kept their auditing certificate - I was astonished to discover that one of my previous employers (the second biggest in the town with over 20 staff) had stopped doing audits. What's more amazing to me is that instead of there being 4 "chartered" partners like the old days, they now only have 2 with the other 2 having no qualifications at all (just qualified by experience). The unqualified ones are those running the practice as both chartered partners are now semi-retired. In a year or two, both will have retired completely and the firm will lose it's coveted "chartered" status, but the two remaining partners are more than confident that it won't affect them because the vast majority of the clients don't need a "chartered" accountant anyway - and remember this is the second largest firm in town.
As a sole practitioner, I know that I could never have set up my own practice 20 years ago because the landscape was so different. Now, most of my clients are tiny one-man firms. My largest client has less than 10 staff but over a £1 million in turnover.
I look back and see that the vast majority of my ACCA studying/examinations is completely irrelevant to what I do today in the office. In fact, my practical experience of statutory audits and group accounts is likewise useless these days. Having lectured AAT at the local college, I know what it's about and I am 100% confident that an AAT is more than competent to deal with today's typical small practice clients.
We really need to lose the snobbery around the chartered titles. AAT is fine for the typical small business client. Qualified by experience is fine for the typical small business client. ACA, ACCA and CIMA are over the top for the typical small business client. People wanting an accountant need to look at the bigger picture and think about personality, experience, efficiency, etc as having a chartered qualification behind their name doesn't guarantee anything. And I'm saying all this as an FCCA myself.
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