Now NO need for PAT Testing!

Firms urged to pull the plug on £30m of wasted electrical safety tests
Unnecessary electrical safety tests cost office-based businesses an estimated £30 million a year.

It's a myth that every portable electrical appliance in the workplace needs to be tested once a year - and what's more it's a costly one.
Every now and then a thread appears in here about the need for PAT testing in small businesses. My personal interest was stirred when I was in my club last night and I heard a couple of the directors talking about getting this done. They are being badly advised by a H and S advisor who is a member but I already knew that testing was not necessary so I dug out the info to prove it to them. Some of you may benefit from knowing this.

Recently the UK Health and Safety Executive Chairperson Judith Hackitt issued this revised guidance.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2012/hse-pattesting.htm

Some PAT testing people have also been suggesting that (no matter what the HSE say) the insurers insist that small businesses have this done. Nick Starling, Director of General Insurance at the Association of British Insurers, said:
"Insurers have never required policyholders to undertake unnecessary portable electrical appliance tests which are not proportionate to the risk.
"We welcome HSE's guidance, which will help businesses focus on what they do best, free from worries about health and safety myths."
Hope this saves some of you a few bob! :)

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Davek0974

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"Insurers have never required policyholders to undertake unnecessary portable electrical appliance tests which are not proportionate to the risk."

Thats an important line for me, "proportionate to the risk". Obviously hand held tools that get chucked around need thorough testing but a desk-bound pc is not going to do anything. This bandwagon really should be squashed.
 
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Like many industries (including website design!) the PAT testing business has it's fair share of cowboys who have been spreading nonsense about this being a legal requirement for years. If you look at some of their websites you will see that the majority of them are still stating or implying that it is a legal requirement. There has a been a massive amount of money taken from unknowing businesses for unnecessary PAT testing over years.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
 
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Why was PAT testing brought out and made a legal requirement in the first place? Was it because electrical fires caused far too many deaths?

The downside of this is that people will no longer focus on the state of their appliances and we might over time see a rise in deaths by faulty electrical kit.

How can one government say it's legal to do this based on historical facts of deaths and another government adviser say don't worry about it?

I have no idea if deaths will increase as a result of lax maintenance and testing of electrical kit but I do know that the Government treats us all like idiots and sways which ever way they feel to suit their needs (not ours).

PAT testing is a good idea in principal, it's just hard to implement. That it has been abused is not doubted. Rather than stop something that is designed to save lives they should come up with a better way of doing it.
 
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Subbynet

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Why was PAT testing brought out and made a legal requirement in the first place? Was it because electrical fires caused far too many deaths?

I'm not sure, but I can't remember electrical fires being a problem, its usually electrocution itself that is the main problem.

The trouble is the PAT test was a load of rubbish. The devices are only given a brief check over for the most basic of faults. If its not obvious at the time they're likely to miss the fault altogether.

I'll give you a small example. 110v extension leads. On many work sites, you'll find loads of leads being used, sometimes in wet ground conditions. Often the leads would break, or have a little nip took out of them exposing the wire core inside. If you touched it you're in for a shock! :rolleyes:

The thing was, this happened pretty much daily, at any time. So a once a year PAT test was a waste of time as the device needed checking - and is meant to be checked by the operator, every single time you use it.
 
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Davek0974

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So a once a year PAT test was a waste of time as the device needed checking - and is meant to be checked by the operator, every single time you use it.

That's the important bit i think - being responsible for your own welfare. Don't plug something in that you know could be dangerous because you drove your van over it yesterday, check it first.

I think a thorough testing regime is important for hand tools and high risk stuff but to have to wreck the office just to reach every plug, lead, PC etc is pointless, expensive both in terms of cash and time wasted and not necessary. Again, office workers should all be taught responsibility to report a chair-damaged lead etc, there again, if you have leads being damaged by chairs then your office is not safe anyway:rolleyes:

I don't think PAT testing should be scrapped, just the myths, legends and BS surrounding it need to be dispelled so that only the equipment that needs testing is done.
 
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If an employee or member of the public gets hurt as a result of a faulty item, you are liable. PAT testers play on this fact, and it is a fact. Employers have a duty of care, and as such , periodic checks on potentially dangerous items is advised.

Someone needs to check these items, and that somone ideally needs to be qualified to do so.

There IS a legal requirement to ensure the items are safe to use.

HOW you do that is up to you :)
 
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Someone needs to check these items, and that somone ideally needs to be qualified to do so.

Actually this is another myth as explained on the "myths" section of the HSE website. "HSE’s advice is that for most office electrical equipment, visual checks for obvious signs of damage and perhaps simple tests by a competent member of staff are quite sufficient."

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/july.htm

Simon, this has nothing to do with governments per se. Electrical regulations are controlled by authorities like the HSE, the NIC and the IEEE.

(If anyone is wondering about my involvement here I am a time served electrician and I worked as an electrical and electronic engineer before going self employed.) ;)

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DDAFIRE

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I think that the issue of PAT testing highlights exactly what is wrong with H&S law in this country - lots of vauge legislation, with guidance that actually says very little (backed up by press releases that add little value, and only serve to complicate matters even further).

Instead of just producing an approved code of practice that says....

"Best practice would be that, in an office environment all equipment that falls into catagory 'X' should be done every 6 months, catagory 'Y' annually, and catagory 'Z' every 2 years", and so on.

You get guidance that says....

[Paraphrasing] "not all equipment needs to be tested, some does, some doesn't, not all of it needs to be tested every year, some more frequently, some less, it depends on the environment, you decide"

Then someone gets hurt, you end up in court, and the first question they ask you is...

"well mr X, please can you explain to the court why your equipment wasn't PAT tested?"


@ The OP - If the club H&S advisor has said that in his professional opinion you should get it done annually, why would you go against his advice and leave yourselves wide open to court action? In fact, why bother even employing him in the first place if you are not going to follow his advise (that would probably save you a few bob as well :rolleyes:)?
 
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I think that the issue of PAT testing highlights exactly what is wrong with H&S law in this country - lots of vauge legislation, with guidance that actually says very little
Actually I don't think that the HSE website could be much clearer. Did you read the info on the links I posted? It's the unethical PAT testing companies who cloud the issue because it is in their interests to do so. ;)

@ The OP - If the club H&S advisor has said that in his professional opinion you should get it done annually, why would you go against his advice and leave yourselves wide open to court action? In fact, why bother even employing him in the first place if you are not going to follow his advise (that would probably save you a few bob as well :rolleyes:)?
Because he is not the club safety advisor. He is just a member who has recently set himself up as a H&S consultant but actually he does not know what he is talking about and I am qualified to advise on this myself. ;)

What do you mean "open to court action"? There is no risk of this because we are in full compliance.:)
 
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Actually this is another myth as explained on the "myths" section of the HSE website. "HSE’s advice is that for most office electrical equipment, visual checks for obvious signs of damage and perhaps simple tests by a competent member of staff are quite sufficient."

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/july.htm

Simon, this has nothing to do with governments per se. Electrical regulations are controlled by authorities like the HSE, the NIC and the IEEE.

(If anyone is wondering about my involvement here I am a time served electrician and I worked as an electrical and electronic engineer before going self employed.) ;)

.


the key word there is 'competent' . IF as you state, someone appoints another to carry out this check, then that person leaves themselves wide open to a claim against them personally, because clearly they have been negligent in their duty of care by appointing somone who was obviously incompetent. THIS was why i said 'qualified' if they are qualified, then the weight of responsibility shifts to them.

What you are suggesting is that for the sake of a few quid, people put themselves at risk of being sued.

Can you do it yourself? YES.

Who is then to blame if somone gets hurt? YOU

and there it rests for me and why someone has to be qualified (as in has the ability to carry out the task) I didn't say they had to be a PAT tester or a time served electrician.

BUT the instant you give somone the task and they mess it up and somone dies, the chain comes back to whever decided they were competent!

FAR easier to pay a few quid to a sparky to run a test.
 
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Deleted member 59730

I have a couple of pieces of equipment that do need PAT testing to satisfy my insurance company. After asking a few local electricians to do the job who didn't turn up I turned to google for a search. I found someone who lived just about as close to my unit as possible. I could probably have found him by shouting outside my door! His charges were very cheap.
 
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the key word there is 'competent' . IF as you state, someone appoints another to carry out this check, then that person leaves themselves wide open to a claim against them personally, because clearly they have been negligent in their duty of care by appointing somone who was obviously incompetent. THIS was why i said 'qualified' if they are qualified, then the weight of responsibility shifts to them.

What you are suggesting is that for the sake of a few quid, people put themselves at risk of being sued.

Can you do it yourself? YES.

Who is then to blame if somone gets hurt? YOU

and there it rests for me and why someone has to be qualified (as in has the ability to carry out the task) I didn't say they had to be a PAT tester or a time served electrician.

BUT the instant you give somone the task and they mess it up and somone dies, the chain comes back to whever decided they were competent!

FAR easier to pay a few quid to a sparky to run a test.

You are talking like a PAT testing company. I prefer to trust my own judgement and the advice of the HSE. ;)
 
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DDAFIRE

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Actually I don't think that the HSE website could be much clearer. Did you read the info on the links I posted? It's the unethical PAT testing companies who cloud the issue because it is in their interests to do so. ;)

Agreed, but did you not say in your post "badly advised by a H & S advisor"?

Either way, I still think that the press release adds little value, because all it really says is "you might be getting ripped off/mislead by PAT testing companies, go and check out our new guidance", which does give clear advice about visual inspections, but with regards to PAT testing makes vauge statements like "up to 5 years", "1-5 years depending on the type of equipment that it is connected too", or " arrange for equipment that is not double insulated to have PAT tests at intervals, which could be between 1 and 5 years depending on the type of equipment" - Not exactly what I would consider to be clear advice, although I do admit that it is a step in the right direction.
Because he is not the club safety advisor. He is just a member who has recently set himself up as a H&S consultant but actually he does not know what he is talking about and I am qualified to advise on this myself. ;)

Fair enough.

What do you mean "open to court action"? There is no risk of this because we are in full compliance.:)

Glad to hear it - what I meant was that if he were your H&S advisor, not following his advice would give you little defence if you were ever to end up in court.:)
 
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You are talking like a PAT testing company. I prefer to trust my own judgement and the advice of the HSE. ;)

Which is to get a competent person in. That person is then liable for any harm that results from the use of that equipment based on their inspection.

i.e. if there is an earth grounding issue, and they get electricuted.

I prefer to rely on my insurance company ;)

as for the little dig about my sounding like a pat testing company, I am sounding like somone who has been involved with the HSE with regard fatalities on site, and also seen how insurance companies work.

"where there's blame, there's a claim" (as the saying goes)
 
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S

S-Marketing

As with most Health and Safety stuff, its not so much about keeping people safe, its more about avoiding blame if they do get hurt.

If I am ever up in front of a judge being grilled about my health and safety policies and procedures, I would much rather be safe in the knowledge that I had paid a few quid to get a few basics done, rather than try to blag my way through it based on the fact that 'technically' I didn't have to actually pay for my PAT, LOLER inspections, etc, etc, etc.

Even if I could do it myself, it would only be cost effective if I earn less per hour than a spark or PAT tester. I hope for that never to be the case. :)
 
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PrestonLad

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For me, it's sensible to employ a certified person to do the job. The value in this thread is that it clarifies that you there is no specified frequency of testing.

It's just disproportionate to get a fully certified person to PAT test a domestic type fridge every year. Just write, follow and record the results of a procedure that ensures that there is a visual check on wiring, at least annually, or after any incident or move of the appliance... and do a proper PAT test every 3(?) years. If you follow that procedure and something goes wrong, and you have to stand in front of a court - you've got a very sound position IMO.
 
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Which is to get a competent person in. That person is then liable for any harm that results from the use of that equipment based on their inspection.
As a qualified electrical engineer I am well aware of the dangers of electricity. I have been in the industry for many years having started my apprenticeship in a Clyde shipyard in 1964. Believe me, I could tell you some stories about situations I have witnessed and experienced! I am not sure why you are making these points but the reason I am correcting what you say is that the whole purpose of my posting this information was to try to save some small business people from spending money needlessly.

The HSE does not require you to "get someone in". Let's be quite clear about that. What they actually say is ...
The person doing testing work needs to competent to do it. In many low-risk environments, a sensible (competent) member of staff can undertake visual inspections if they have enough knowledge and training. However, when undertaking combined inspection and testing, a greater level of knowledge and experience is needed, and the person will need:

  • the right equipment to do the tests
  • the ability to use this test equipment properly
  • the ability to properly understand the test results
It is people in these "low risk environments" (most offices/shops/pubs/clubs) that I am trying to help. In most situations like this all that is is required is this visual inspection by a competent member of staff.

I had a discussion last night with an electrician who related a story of a company he was working in, where a piece of equipment had problems. He cut the plug of the mains lead and left it sitting on top of the equipment to highlight this fact. Meanwhile the company employed to do the PAT testing came in. When they left they had put a pass sticker on this equipment and the plug was still sitting on top of it.

That is what you can get when you employ "experts". The fact is that many PAT testing businesses are set up by people who have completed a one day course, which apparently qualifies them to do the tests. Many of them do not know their amps from their elbows!

Anyway, I was only trying to help. It's your call but feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions on this. ;)
 
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The person doing testing work needs to competent to do it. In many low-risk environments, a sensible (competent) member of staff can undertake visual inspections if they have enough knowledge and training. However, when undertaking combined inspection and testing, a greater level of knowledge and experience is needed, and the person will need:
the right equipment to do the tests
the ability to use this test equipment properly
the ability to properly understand the test results

There is nobody in your average office, pub etc that knows how to use the equipment or what the results mean.
 
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Why would I Pm you when I am adequately qualifed to deal with electrical wiring myself?

Ok cmon lets put the sillyness to bed, you know what I am saying, but lets have another look.

In many low-risk environments, a sensible (competent) member of staff can undertake visual inspections if they have enough knowledge and training.

IF you do it yourself, you have to decide
1. the risk level, you mention pubs, that place where the main product is fluid based? something as innocent as a telephone plug could kill someone.

2. the competence and mental status of the person you appoint

3. the knowledge and training that person has.

Don't you realise that by posting that you are agreeing with me?
I stated a suitably qualified person, you said no, yet the HSE are saying correct knowledge and training ergo = qualified

qualified/ˈkwäləˌfīd/


  • Officially recognized as being trained to perform a particular job; certified: "newly qualified nurses".
  • Competent or knowledgeable to do something; capable: "I was less well qualified than almost anyone present to recollect the olden days".
But to be even MORE clear on what I am saying and why I challenged your claim that there is no need for it (or similar).


IF people are happy to make all the judgements and carry the can if something goes wrong, then fine, do it yourself, or ask the teaboy to look at it.



IF OTOH people would prefer the legal recourse of having appointed a suitably qualified person so that if somethign goes wrong THEY carry the can, then pay somone.


As I said previously, it is all about liability and apportioning blame and offsetting the liability.
 
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Chris Ashdown

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    So to sum up

    Pat testing is a good idea for all companies but not required every year,

    It would be a good idea between pat testing to do a visual inspection of what could be classified as household equipment , like you do for your fire prevention and equipment reviews

    Non household type industrial or Portable equipment should still be PAT tested at regular periods probably every one to two years
     
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    The HSE take on this would be ..
    So to sum up

    Pat testing is a good idea for all companies but not required every year,
    Pat testing is not required at all in certain situations where equipment is mainly domestic.
    It would be a good idea between pat testing to do a visual inspection of what could be classified as household equipment , like you do for your fire prevention and equipment reviews
    (as above)
    Non household type industrial or Portable equipment should still be PAT tested at regular periods probably every one to two years
    In many situations, yes.
     
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    Bryan why single me out? That speaks volumes my friend.

    Have you thought that the reason I feel compelled to argue with some of the things you post is because I disdagree with some of the things you post?

    No more, no less.

    as I said how about the sillyness gets put to bed, you are seeing things that don't exist.

    Here is my advice.
    1. Go out, buy some silver foil,
    2. make a hat :p
    3. lighten up.

    wew are dead long enough, no need to take things so seriously.
     
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    Actually, as I understand there is no law that requires homes to have RCDs. New builds will be required to comply but there is no need to alter existing installations. These devices are not infallible and they can be a PITA since they can trip with appliances like steam irons and kettles. They are probably improved since I last worked with them but that was a problem back then.
     
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    DDAFIRE

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    As with most Health and Safety stuff, its not so much about keeping people safe, its more about avoiding blame if they do get hurt.
    Going off topic slightly...

    Unfortunately that's a common misconception that many people have about health and safety.

    Obviously the threat of litigation is the proverbial stick that they use to beat business owners with, and I'm sure that there are some that couldn't care less about their employees, but (Leaving the moral reasons aside)...

    The simple truth is that it makes good business sense to take health and safety seriously.

    Even if you don't care about your staff, the costs of them getting injured out weigh the costs of trying to protect them many, many times over.

    Consider the costs of one of your staff members having a preventable accident; sick pay, investigation time, administration costs, bad PR, reduced productivity, temporary staff to replace them, overtime, etc, etc..

    Now ask yourself how many of those costs are covered by your insurance.
     
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    draelectricals

    I'm coming in late to this post but feel this topic has confused a lot of people so I need to clear up the mis-conception.

    Recently the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) released a document entitled “Maintaining portable electric equipment in low-risk environments” which prompted loads of articles, blogs, tweets, Facebook posts, etc. stating that the HSE had announced that there was no law that says PAT Testing is required, and that PAT Testing was illegal or didn’t have to be done.

    As someone who has read this article in detail more than once, and seen many of the other articles, and to add to that, put many people right, I need to ask the question – did the source of this post start with someone who hadn’t read the article correctly?

    The issue: at no point in the document does it say that you don’t have to get PAT Tested

    In fact the first time the term Portable Appliance Test (PAT) is mentioned the document states “not every electrical item needs a portable appliance test (PAT)”. It didn't say "no electrical items need a portable appliance test (PAT)".

    So this thread is entitled "now NO need for PAT Testing"; how far into the document did you read? The term PAT is not mentioned until the bottom of page 1, until then the document INDG236 (rev2) has discussed maintaining electrical equipment.

    Follow the link to open the document if you like.

    The important point to notice is that the document is about maintaining electrical equipment, of which the practice of PAT Testing is a part.

    Note: PAT Testing is a term used for ease because people know it, it's not a correct term to use and is a general term for different assessments that are carried out on electrical equipment of all sizes and uses, whether portable or not.

    This post is about a document released by the HSE making recommendations for maintaining electrical equipment in the workplace. The thread has been started by someone who has mis-read an important document, or more likely is jumping on the band wagon of the first article and hasn't actually read the document but is just repeating someone elses (incorrect) opinion. This thread is telling people there is no need to be PAT Tested, which if you read the document correctly (doesn't need to be read that carefully) and understand what PAT testing is you will see that there is a need to get tested, and that even the HSE tells you so.

    The HSE says in the document, that not every item needs a PAT test. With this in mind, isn't it also saying that some items DO need a PAT test. Thus it is not saying that there is no need for PAT Testing but is in fact saying that PAT Testing IS a requirement.

    What the document does say, in depth and I think this is where people are taking it out of proportion is “you must maintain electrical equipment if it can cause danger, but the law* does not say how you must do this or how often”.

    This is referring to maintaining electrical equipment. The inspection and/or testing procedure more commonly referred to as PAT Testing is only a part or an option of this.

    Based on these misconceptions are you also saying that a faulty electrical appliance (eg a circular saw without a guard) doesn't need repairing?

    *In this case the law referred to is stated as the Electricity at Work Regulations 1999.

    Dependant on your opinion of this, if the PAT is part of the maintenance programme and the law does state you must 'maintain' then does that mean you must also PAT, by law? That is a matter of opinion but is worth considering as a question.

    The document does say that The business owner or manager must ensure they maintain the electrical equipment if it can cause danger – all electrical equipment can cause danger because it is electrical; it works from electricity, which is dangerous.

    How many owners or managers can honestly say that they maintain their electrical equipment on a regular basis and keep records to prove it. As an experience electrical inspection engineer I can honestly say, “not many”.

    By conducting what is generally referred to as a PAT Test, you are showing that you are taking action to ensure your electrical appliances are safe, and with the certificate issued you have evidence to prove you have done this.

    The second part of the statement says that “the law does not say how you must do this or how often”, but this HSE document and other HSE documents do, as does the Code of Practice for In-service Inspection and Testing of electrical equipment, which PAT Testing companies are supposed to work to.

    As the law doesn’t say this, and most people don’t know what the guidelines are they quite rightly turn to their PAT Testing company, and ask the question. 8 out of 10 companies will tell their clients everything has to be tested every year to ensure compliance.

    It is this advice that has given our industry a bad name, because this advice is wrong. How often an item needs testing is dependent on your own risk assessment of the appliance and the environment it is used in. Your risk assessment must comply with the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974.

    Some equipment in some environments do need inspecting or testing annually, some even more frequent than that, but this document, the document that started this post doesn't relate to those environments.

    I would like to clear something up; when the HSE document talks about maintaining electrical equipment it is talking about:

    • assessing (user checks)
    • repairing
    • inspecting (visual inspections)
    • electrical testing (formal visual inspection and/or combined inspection and testing AKA PAT)

    Users of the equipment are meant to do a user check before they use the equipment every time, and report any faults and thus get them repaired. Dependant on the risk factor of the equipment and the environment it may be deemed necessary for a formal visual inspection and/or a combined inspection and test.

    The formal visual inspection and the combined inspection and test is what people generally refer to as PAT Testing. Which is done and when is dependant on the risk assessment and the guidelines.

    The guidelines are in a table form, in this document. I'm going to skip the user checks as you should be doing them anyway.

    This document by the way, only relates to Low risk environments (mainly offices); the guidelines for construction sites, factories, industry etc. remain the same. In fact the low risk environments guideline hasn't changed it's just been put into a document.

    If you have a look at the table the only items the HSE say don't need a PAT Test in some respect (the last 2 columns relate to the PAT Test) at all or battery operated equipment or extra low voltage equipment. The battery operated equipment wouldn't have been tested in the past anyway, and the extra low voltage equipment sometimes has a visual on it, and sometimes isn't tested; dependant on what the client deems a risk.

    So, the title of the post should have been:

    Nothings changed; there's NO need for PAT Testing on battery operated or extra low voltage equipment.

    Then chances are no one would have commented on it.
     
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    draelectricals

    Actually this is another myth as explained on the "myths" section of the HSE website. "HSE’s advice is that for most office electrical equipment, visual checks for obvious signs of damage and perhaps simple tests by a competent member of staff are quite sufficient."

    http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/july.htm

    Simon, this has nothing to do with governments per se. Electrical regulations are controlled by authorities like the HSE, the NIC and the IEEE.

    (If anyone is wondering about my involvement here I am a time served electrician and I worked as an electrical and electronic engineer before going self employed.) ;)

    .

    The myth you refer to says the same as the document in question - not all electrical equipment needs to be tested every year. That is correct.

    Just like the document that started the thread, how you read it is what matters.

    Not all electrical equipment needs to be tested every year

    Not all - not all, but some
    every year - not every year but some years

    We're talking office equipment. Read the document that started the post, that was issued in 2012 not 2007, that states that office equipment such as computers, photocopiers etc does need to be tested at least once every 5 years.

    Not all electrical equipment needs to be tested every year.... but some of it needs to be tested every 5 years, and needs a formal visual inspection every 2-4 years.
     
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