No space for a toilet

[Mammabug]

Evening,

I am really in need of some advice regarding a potential new business my husband and I are looking to buy.

The sandwich shop is tiny, and has no space for a loo anywhere. At present, they get round it by having all their staff "self employed", but if we were to buy it our staff would be on regular hours etc., and HMRC would definitely view them as employed. The staff now nip out and use the pub or shop next door and they're ok with that.

So, the HSE says we need one toilet for the staff level, but also talks about it being practical to do so. So I'm unsure where we stand on this. Hubs would be the owner and sole trader, can we get away with having employees but no toilet?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

 

[StevensOnln1]

So long as you can guarantee that your staff will always have access to a toilet nearby I doubt it would be a problem. There are loads of retail and office units all over the place that don't have their own toilet and they must all manage.

 

[paulears]

The TUC advice (with a cop-out caveat) is that YES - you do have to provide a toilet.
https://worksmart.org.uk/health-adv...-my-employer-have-provide-toilet-where-i-work.

HSE might have the "where practical" comment, but isn't a toilet part of the local authorities hygiene check?

 

[Mammabug]

On the local authority check, I would have thought so too, but they have a 4* rating and have had no actions imposed on them in their 7 prior years of trading. So it would seem that the council are fine with it.

 

[kulture]

On the local authority check, I would have thought so too, but they have a 4* rating and have had no actions imposed on them in their 7 prior years of trading. So it would seem that the council are fine with it.

Do not assume, ask the local council.

 

[Newchodge]

Do you have hand washing facilities?

 

[The Byre]

The sandwich shop is tiny, and has no space for a loo anywhere.

I find that very difficult to believe.

1. The law requires you (as Cyndy has implied!) to have hand washing facilities on site, so water and sewage facilities are definitely there - and if for some magic reason, they are not there, then use a caravan-type set-up with tanks.

2. A lavatory with washbasin can be easily built into a one-square-meter space.

 

[Bushman]

Check with the council, there are probably exceptions. After all Market Traders and road side Burger Vans don't have toilets.

 

[The Byre]

Check with the council, there are probably exceptions. After all Market Traders and road side Burger Vans don't have toilets.

1. In many areas, markets do indeed have lavatories and washing facilities.

2. They are mobile and temporary. A shop is not.

3. Employees need to be able to wash their hands and go to the lavatory.

4. A modern burger van does have a lavatory and of course washing facilities.

5. Providing staff with the very basics for human hygiene is AFAIK the law, as well as being a question of human decency!

 

[Gecko001]

The landlord undoubtedly knows about the problem with regard to the lack of a toilet and is obviously charging rent at a fraction of what it would be if the premises had a toilet. You get what you pay for.

In my view you either start looking elsewhere or offer the landlord more money for a shop with a toilet in it so that when he finds out that he cannot rent the premises to anybody he might decide to put in a toilet. As others have stated, it is surprising how small a space you can fit a toilet into these days.

 

[Bushman]

1. In many areas, markets do indeed have lavatories and washing facilities.

2. They are mobile and temporary. A shop is not.

3. Employees need to be able to wash their hands and go to the lavatory.

4. A modern burger van does have a lavatory and of course washing facilities.

5. Providing staff with the very basics for human hygiene is AFAIK the law, as well as being a question of human decency!

The original post was only asking about toilets so I assume they have washing facilities and if the pub and shop next door are happy to let them use the toilets then I don't see there is any issue of the staff not having their basic human needs. But the best thing to do is check wityh the council, after all they will have the final say.

 

[Newchodge]

Incidentally, even if your predecessors called their staff 'self employed' they almost certainly were not. Have you looked into the probability that they will be affected by TUPE?

 

[UKSBD]

The problem with checking with the council is somebody at the council then becomes responsible which means they will do everything by the book if they have any sense (why put their neck on the line).

This can result in a business that has been running OK for 10+ years suddenly not being viable.

Make sure it is sorted 100% before buying the business or take the risk, choice is yours.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

When I used to work in a business unit as part of a large complex (with lots of independent units available for rent), none of them had toilets. However, there were multiple communal toilets where you could walk out of the unit, do what needs to be done and then return.

This means that any businesses based in these units with employees were not offering toilets within their workplaces - officially speaking.

This complex is now run by the council as well, so if they had any problems with that, then it would have been looked into by now.

In my view (and this is purely opinion only which should not be construed as advice), I think there's a key difference between providing a toilet in the workplace, and providing a toilet for the workplace.

Even in the article Paulears provided, it says "Your employer needs to provide at least one toilet for your workplace". It doesn't say that the toilet needs to be on the premises. It doesn't even say that the employer has to own it. It just says that access to one must be provided for the workplace.

Perhaps this is the grey area in which the business is allowed to do that. Providing that unrestricted access to a toilet is provided, and it's within a reasonable distance, that could fulfil the obligation to provide a toilet for your employees. You would be sharing it with another business, but that happens in shared office blocks and business centres every day.

PS: I've dug around in the H&S regulations, specifically here on page 37:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/l24.pdf

And ACOP 21 states:

190
Facilities should be located so they are convenient. They do not have to
be within the workplace, but they should, if possible, be within the building. If
the facilities are being provided by someone else, for example the owner of
the building, they should still meet the provisions of this Code and be
available at all times when workers might be expected to be in the workplace.
The use of public facilities is only acceptable as a last resort, where no other
arrangement is possible.

So even public facilities are allowed in certain circumstances, and I would say you're going one step further than that by providing access via the neighbouring shop and pub, providing an agreement is in place to do so.

 

[Paul Norman]

There are two important points here, which need to be firmly decided upon before entering into any arrangement for this shop.

1. There are, potentially, TUPE issues involved with the people currently working in the shop. The dealing with this will need to be covered in your contract. TUPE matters can arise some time after occupation, and although not, in this case, certain, the possibility needs to be closed down.

2. I personally would not consider hiring people, or myself working in, a facility that had access to good, clean, well looked after, toilets written into the lease arrangements. Using those next door is ok provided it is convenient, and not capable of being removed as a facility. It is also important that they are kept clean.