NMW Compliance Officer - How much time & information can they demand?

[SunshineSheila]

I have a takeaway, with a different name to my LTD company.
I received a letter in July to arrange a visit from a NMW compliance officer as they have no records of us as an employer. I rang and explained the name of the LTD company, and that is how payroll is processed. They still wanted to visit, in the middle of August (couldn't delay despite being our busiest month of the whole year)
Visit lasted apporx 5hrs as they stated, through lunchtime rush which was a nightmare. They were happy with everything I said, checked payslips, clocking in system, check staff lists, spot checked staff's names to the staff list. A few IDs etc. Then interviewed 5 staff for 15-20mins each.
All seemed good, I'm meeting NMW & legal employee obligations (pensions etc) but they obsessed a little over uniform. Staff wear black, clean clothes, & clean trainers. I don't provide it. They asked how strict I am, I said on the cleanliness very, on the colours not so much. Dark would be acceptable, orange not so much, but we all have emergencies, and I have a couple of spare tops normally.
It seemed like it was done & dusted. But then they want all my employees of the last 12m phone numbers to conduct further interviews about uniform. Basically if they are being forced to buy a black t-shirt that takes them under min wage. (I don't sell the uniform, I say grab something from Peacocks/Tesco)
The employees I have spoken to don't want to have someone ring them, I've managed to get 12 staff to agree to me passing on their numbers, (some curren, some ex) the rest don't want to. I don't store phone numbers only addresses. I passed all these on, but they want everyone.
Ex-staff is an issue, I've fired 10+ this year, 3 were stealing and we had police involvement, 3 incidents of gross miscounduct, and a few just failed their probationary period. Obviously if they get contacted they are going to make it into a drama & make out I force them to buy Gucci loafers or similar.
For all ex staff I only have addresses also.
They also want staff details for the same reason for a different shop. Are they allowed to move the investigation to other premises?
I'm really lost as to what I am doing wrong, am I wrong to ask employees to wear clean dark clothing to work? I provide aprons, hats etc.

Many thanks in advance

 

[Newchodge]

I have a takeaway, with a different name to my LTD company.
I received a letter in July to arrange a visit from a NMW compliance officer as they have no records of us as an employer. I rang and explained the name of the LTD company, and that is how payroll is processed. They still wanted to visit, in the middle of August (couldn't delay despite being our busiest month of the whole year)
Visit lasted apporx 5hrs as they stated, through lunchtime rush which was a nightmare. They were happy with everything I said, checked payslips, clocking in system, check staff lists, spot checked staff's names to the staff list. A few IDs etc. Then interviewed 5 staff for 15-20mins each.
All seemed good, I'm meeting NMW & legal employee obligations (pensions etc) but they obsessed a little over uniform. Staff wear black, clean clothes, & clean trainers. I don't provide it. They asked how strict I am, I said on the cleanliness very, on the colours not so much. Dark would be acceptable, orange not so much, but we all have emergencies, and I have a couple of spare tops normally.
It seemed like it was done & dusted. But then they want all my employees of the last 12m phone numbers to conduct further interviews about uniform. Basically if they are being forced to buy a black t-shirt that takes them under min wage. (I don't sell the uniform, I say grab something from Peacocks/Tesco)
The employees I have spoken to don't want to have someone ring them, I've managed to get 12 staff to agree to me passing on their numbers, (some curren, some ex) the rest don't want to. I don't store phone numbers only addresses. I passed all these on, but they want everyone.
Ex-staff is an issue, I've fired 10+ this year, 3 were stealing and we had police involvement, 3 incidents of gross miscounduct, and a few just failed their probationary period. Obviously if they get contacted they are going to make it into a drama & make out I force them to buy Gucci loafers or similar.
For all ex staff I only have addresses also.
They also want staff details for the same reason for a different shop. Are they allowed to move the investigation to other premises?
I'm really lost as to what I am doing wrong, am I wrong to ask employees to wear clean dark clothing to work? I provide aprons, hats etc.

Many thanks in advance

You are wrong to pay NMW to staff who have to purchase any items of workwear that you demand they wear. They can investigate anywhere they think there is a problem.

 

[SunshineSheila]

They don't necessarily need to purchase items, if they have black/grey jeans & a black/grey top, these are fine. Most employees will have items like this already.

 

[SunshineSheila]

Do I have to force staff to give me phone numbers to pass on, do I have to find ex-staff phone numbers? Do I have to provide their addresses

 

[The Byre]

GDPR tells us that you should not be giving out names and addresses for people with whom you no longer have any dealings. Staff are I assume free to be interviewed at work.

Are you seriously telling us that you can't buy T-shirts with the name of your business on it and just give them to the staff???

The last time I looked, T-shirts cost about the same as employing someone for 20 minutes. On rock tours, all the crew get T-shirts with the name of the tour and sometimes for each and every gig as a security measure. On film sets, the crew get T-shirts with the name of the film on them, both for security reasons and as a courtesy as these can become collector items.

 

[Mr D]

GDPR tells us that you should not be giving out names and addresses for people with whom you no longer have any dealings. Staff are I assume free to be interviewed at work.

Are you seriously telling us that you can't buy T-shirts with the name of your business on it and just give them to the staff???

The last time I looked, T-shirts cost about the same as employing someone for 20 minutes. On rock tours, all the crew get T-shirts with the name of the tour and sometimes for each and every gig as a security measure. On film sets, the crew get T-shirts with the name of the film on them, both for security reasons and as a courtesy as these can become collector items.

Should all employers be buying clothing for staff?

I've worked places where we were told 'dark colours' and that was it - never anyone claiming that employer wasn't paying us right wage because of having to buy clothing. We simply wore clothing that wasn't light.

 

[SunshineSheila]

We started with uniforms provided, but for full timers doing long shifts they ended up wanting 3 each or they just wouldn't wash them.
Then we had staff get uniform on first shift then never come back.
They just don't look after our uniform like they would their own clothes.
Holding a stock of different sizes.
Aprons are coloured and branded, we supply & wash.
NMW officer is referring to trousers & shoes too.

We then did a uniform deposit, £30 to cover 3-4 tops, 1 jumper, hat & that included replacements for wear & tear, even accidental damage at work. Returned on final pay slip.
Apparently that is also illegal, as that first months pay is under NMW?

So we are back to wear your own clothes. Look presentable. Black is our favourite, but darks is fine.

We have a lot of student workforce, so turnover can be high. (lots get sacked for coming in hungover, late, stoned, falling asleep! Hence a good handful that would love to create a drama)

 

[SunshineSheila]

Really interested in the GDPR information. Do I have the right to give out phone numbers/addresses of ex staff that worked for me 11 months ago?

Also payslips from 11 months ago? Would my accountants charge for copies of the last 12months of everything they have for us? I can see that being time consuming!

They have viewed slips from June & July. No issues there.

This isn't from a complaint, they said this is a regular work through of takeaways in the area.

I'll be honest, I told them to check out the neighbours. It's well known that the whole area pays cash in hand, which is why I struggle for staff as they are better off staying on benefits & working 3 doors down! I end up with the students.

 

[Mr D]

Really interested in the GDPR information. Do I have the right to give out phone numbers/addresses of ex staff that worked for me 11 months ago?

Also payslips from 11 months ago? Would my accountants charge for copies of the last 12months of everything they have for us? I can see that being time consuming!

They have viewed slips from June & July. No issues there.

This isn't from a complaint, they said this is a regular work through of takeaways in the area.

I'll be honest, I told them to check out the neighbours. It's well known that the whole area pays cash in hand, which is why I struggle for staff as they are better off staying on benefits & working 3 doors down! I end up with the students.

Cash in hand isn't that bad. Can still meet legal requirements.

 

[Newchodge]

If an employee on minimum wage is required by you to buy anything to use at work - T shirt, smart shoes, safety shoes, hair net, anything, you are paying them below NMW. Every pay period they must receive NMW for the hours worked, without having to spend anything to comply with your requirements. If they don't get NMW in one wage period they must get it made up in the next.

 

[SunshineSheila]

I don't belive anyone is required to buy anything. Just wear clean dark top, clean dark trousers/jeans. Clean trainers (any colour)
I'm fine with them conducting more worker interviews.
Not so fine with supplying all staff details for last 12 months to interview them. Also some current staff members do not want to be involved. I've provided 12 staff details. Some current some ex-staff.
They want more, and for me to find phone numbers.

 

[Mr D]

I don't belive anyone is required to buy anything. Just wear clean dark top, clean dark trousers/jeans. Clean trainers (any colour)
I'm fine with them conducting more worker interviews.
Not so fine with supplying all staff details for last 12 months to interview them. Also some current staff members do not want to be involved. I've provided 12 staff details. Some current some ex-staff.
They want more, and for me to find phone numbers.

Is it you telling the interviewers that staff don't want to be involved or is it the staff telling them that?

Just thinking that an employer doing things wrong would try and stop staff being spoken to. The investigators may be wondering what you are hiding.

 

[Newchodge]

I don't belive anyone is required to buy anything. Just wear clean dark top, clean dark trousers/jeans. Clean trainers (any colour)

And if all their clothes are bright blue? Don't pretend to be so naive.

 

[Newchodge]

OP you come across here as someone who knows they are about to be caught having broken the rules, and is desperately trying to find a way out. Speak to my competitors, they are worse; I can't believe the law stops me doing this; my staff don't want to talk to HMRC. HMRC have more powers than the police. If you come across to them in the same way they will dig deeper and deeper until they find everything there ,may be to be found.


Give them the details you have about all of your current and past staff. It is not your problem that the staff don't want their details given out, you are required to provide what you have. If staff don't want to talk to HMRC THE STAFF just need to tell them that. You telling them sounds like you are hiding something. If you genuinely don't have phone numbers, then tell them, but you must have addresses and must supply them..

 

[SunshineSheila]

How have I broken the rules? They conducted several employee interviews on the visit, they were happy with all the information they received. I've told them I am happy to change my uniform policy if that would be better.
Staff on the day were not all wearing black, one they interviewed had hippy mulitcoloured trousers on.
I'm not being naive, 90% of people own black/grey clothes. Some don't want to wear their nice stuff to work, so I point them in the direction of Asda.
I have invited them back for more employee interviews, on the day they randomly picked who they wanted to talk to. Only one really wasn't happy about it, she complained to me afterwards, she found it intimidating and she shouldn't have been forced into a room on her own to be cross examined about her job and pay.

My question is, legally do I have to provide contact details of all my past employees from the last 12 months. When I have provided several interviews (at their random picking) and another 12 sets of details of current and previous staff.

I have a court case due against 1 for theft, and several of her friends were involved without enough evidence aginst them to prosecute, but we have evidence on her including messages of confession. I don't want to be in contact with this group as they will do anything they can to harm my business. Including defacating in a McDonalds bag & setting fire to it outside my doors. (I have a screenshot of that threat ready for court)

If I need to adjust my work wear policy - THAT IS FINE

If someone knowledgable can please answer my original question, that would be very helpful

 

[Mr D]

Pointing in the direction of Asda? Can that be seen as requiring them to use some of their minimum wage money to buy clothes for work...?

 

[SunshineSheila]

IF they don't want to wear their nice clothes. Eg, sports wear, designer clothes, I'm happy for them to wear to work. If they don't want to, I tell them the cheapest place to get clothes. Up to them, wear currently owned clothes, or buy more. THIER choice

 

[AlanJ1]

IF they don't want to wear their nice clothes. Eg, sports wear, designer clothes, I'm happy for them to wear to work. If they don't want to, I tell them the cheapest place to get clothes. Up to them, wear currently owned clothes, or buy more. THIER choice

I don't think you seem to grasp that this exactly is breaking the NMW law.

 

[SteveHa]

GDPR has various basis for retaining information, one being legal obligation. If you obstruct HMRC by not providing information they are likely to issue you with a Sch 36 notice, which creates a legally enforceable obligation on you to provide the information.

I recommend not being obstructive.

 

[The Byre]

HMRC inspectors love it when someone gets obstructive! That's when they spit on their hands and gleefully say "This one's going to be fun!"

 

[SunshineSheila]

No I don't, which is why I am on a Business Forum asking for help...

They can wear their own clothes to work, HMRCs issue is how strict I am with what clothes.

They (hmrc) had no issue with them wearing their own clothes, only how STRICT I am with colours, which would mean they had no choice but to have to purchase a uniform.

This is not the case

 

[Mr D]

No I don't, which is why I am on a Business Forum asking for help...

They can wear their own clothes to work, HMRCs issue is how strict I am with what clothes.

They (hmrc) had no issue with them wearing their own clothes, only how STRICT I am with colours, which would mean they had no choice but to have to purchase a uniform.

This is not the case

Then better hope your staff past and present agree with you.

 

[lesliedocherty]

And if all their clothes are bright blue? Don't pretend to be so naive.

you are being harsh here,

 

[AnneLou]

I'm finding this thread a little bit disturbing!
It feels like it is yet another example of where a small operator can become "guilty" of committing some perceived crime simply because of how they run their business. I don't set out to break the law but this situation that the OP finds themselves in could also be me!

I have a desired dress code which I would dearly like my staff to "respect". I operate in the service industry with tight margins and minimum/living wage. I have also tried providing uniform at some point in the past (when I was a glassy-eyed idealistic newbie) but it's hard to maintain when business costs rise and there are only so many times that you can hold your nerve when a new employee pulls "that face" when presented with a fresh laundered shirt which might of been worn by some previous employee who only lasted two weeks! Oh how I laughed when one young staff member arrived at work proudly wearing her self-adapted crop-top, belly revealing uniform shirt!
Now, I am resigned to being so far down the food-chain in my business that what I want or require of my employees is just to simply turn up, sober, on time and at least pretend to give a pickle about serving our customers. The fact that their contracts have a little statement included asking them to wear black, clearly means that I am breaking yet another "law" which I have to lose yet more sleep over.

The other thing that the OP is concerned with is resentful ex-employees and let's face it, I'm sure many of us have had these! Some would just love to "bubble us up" if they saw the opportunity! If someone stole from your business, then they can't be relied on to present the honest truth - yet, bizarrely their opinion could likely be taken into consideration. I've had employees who I know darn well are stealing from us but I've lacked the skills or abilities to catch them with enough evidence to prosecute so we part company on some other pretence. I'm pretty sure that I would be mortified to think that those same individuals could be interviewed and their opinions factored in to prove my guilt simply because I expected them to wear black clothing for work.

To the OP, you asked for some expert opinion and received some responses back - whilst it might not be what you want to hear, you have received the expert advice you requested. It would appear that making any request on how your staff dress for work could be deemed as actually expecting a "uniform". As your staff are paid minimum/living wage, then the purchase of that clothing for their work is going to reduce their wage and you could be held accountable for that. It's a deeply uncomfortable feeling because I also could be facing the exact same issues - wondering why the flipping heck even be in business at all!

 

[Mr D]

To the OP, you asked for some expert opinion and received some responses back - whilst it might not be what you want to hear, you have received the expert advice you requested. It would appear that making any request on how your staff dress for work could be deemed as actually expecting a "uniform". As your staff are paid minimum/living wage, then the purchase of that clothing for their work is going to reduce their wage and you could be held accountable for that. It's a deeply uncomfortable feeling because I also could be facing the exact same issues - wondering why the flipping heck even be in business at all!

Even big companies have been caught out by requiring staff to have particular dress while paying minimum wage.

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/news/articles/high-street-firms-minimum-wage-breaches-tip-iceberg

"Charging staff for uniforms or expecting them to fund their own independently, failing to pay overtime and issues around job-related travel expenses were some of the reasons given for salaries falling below the national minimum wage threshold.

Wagamama said there had been a ‘misunderstanding’ on staff uniform rules and admitted that by stipulating specific uniform colours, it was inadvertently expecting staff to pay for their own uniforms.

The employers were collectively required to compensate workers a total of £1.1m in back pay and pay government fines of £1.3m. "

 

[AnneLou]

Just read that article Mr D!

This particular statement cracked me:-
Andrew Eagan, senior associate solicitor in the employment team at Coffin Mew, told People Management there was ‘no excuse’ for failing to pay staff less than minimum wage. “Ignorance of the law is not good enough,” he added.


This is all well and good to apply to the big multinationals with a wealth of knowledge available at their fingertips - but I'm pretty much a one-man operator as I suspect the OP is. I bet that Mr Andrew "super-legal-brain" Eagan can't unblock the men's urinal in his local pub with the flair and dignity that I can! Ignorance of plumbing is not good enough!

 

[Mr D]

Just read that article Mr D!

This particular statement cracked me:-
Andrew Eagan, senior associate solicitor in the employment team at Coffin Mew, told People Management there was ‘no excuse’ for failing to pay staff less than minimum wage. “Ignorance of the law is not good enough,” he added.


This is all well and good to apply to the big multinationals with a wealth of knowledge available at their fingertips - but I'm pretty much a one-man operator as I suspect the OP is. I bet that Mr Andrew "super-legal-brain" Eagan can't unblock the men's urinal in his local pub with the flair and dignity that I can! Ignorance of plumbing is not good enough!

I treasure my ignorance of plumbing. I leave that to her indoors.
Unblocking toilets, fixing leaks, changing pipes, connecting washing machine - I leave to her.

Unfortunately us one man / small bands are as required to stick to the laws as the big companies who employ their own legal departments. What you do not know can kill your business - and usually you do not know what you do not know.

And as you have read even the big companies can make mistakes. Quite likely simply no one considered the consequences of some boardroom decision.

We learn from mistakes, of our own or others. Sometimes costly mistakes sometimes mere warning mistakes.

 

[Newchodge]

My question is, legally do I have to provide contact details of all my past employees from the last 12 months.

Yes, absolutely. If you read my original post, the answer to your original question is there.

 

[SunshineSheila]

I'm finding this thread a little bit disturbing!
It feels like it is yet another example of where a small operator can become "guilty" of committing some perceived crime simply because of how they run their business. I don't set out to break the law but this situation that the OP finds themselves in could also be me!

I have a desired dress code which I would dearly like my staff to "respect". I operate in the service industry with tight margins and minimum/living wage. I have also tried providing uniform at some point in the past (when I was a glassy-eyed idealistic newbie) but it's hard to maintain when business costs rise and there are only so many times that you can hold your nerve when a new employee pulls "that face" when presented with a fresh laundered shirt which might of been worn by some previous employee who only lasted two weeks! Oh how I laughed when one young staff member arrived at work proudly wearing her self-adapted crop-top, belly revealing uniform shirt!
Now, I am resigned to being so far down the food-chain in my business that what I want or require of my employees is just to simply turn up, sober, on time and at least pretend to give a pickle about serving our customers. The fact that their contracts have a little statement included asking them to wear black, clearly means that I am breaking yet another "law" which I have to lose yet more sleep over.

The other thing that the OP is concerned with is resentful ex-employees and let's face it, I'm sure many of us have had these! Some would just love to "bubble us up" if they saw the opportunity! If someone stole from your business, then they can't be relied on to present the honest truth - yet, bizarrely their opinion could likely be taken into consideration. I've had employees who I know darn well are stealing from us but I've lacked the skills or abilities to catch them with enough evidence to prosecute so we part company on some other pretence. I'm pretty sure that I would be mortified to think that those same individuals could be interviewed and their opinions factored in to prove my guilt simply because I expected them to wear black clothing for work.

To the OP, you asked for some expert opinion and received some responses back - whilst it might not be what you want to hear, you have received the expert advice you requested. It would appear that making any request on how your staff dress for work could be deemed as actually expecting a "uniform". As your staff are paid minimum/living wage, then the purchase of that clothing for their work is going to reduce their wage and you could be held accountable for that. It's a deeply uncomfortable feeling because I also could be facing the exact same issues - wondering why the flipping heck even be in business at all!

Thank you so much AnneLou, I really appreciate a kind response, with someone trying to be helpful, not rude, and not incinuating I'm a criminal through choice!

The business I have was making no money when I took over the premises, I had 2 good years, enough to pay back some of the start up loans, and invest in some equipment. Since then the area has gone downhill, costs have increased, and customers decreased and profits disappeared. Last winter and this winter I will not be able to take a wage, which was under £1k month anyway.

I am doing my best to provide quality food, decent prices, lovely work environment, staff training and support, even using contacts to help them with their career plans (to my loss of them as an employee)
I'm invited to birthdays, engagements, christenings & weddings by ex staff, and I'm on the kill list of just as many. I'm firm, but fair. Great staff are looked after, bad staff are turned on their tails pretty quickly.

This is new information to me, I knew they couldn't pay for uniform, I thought wearing their own clothes was fine, as no outgoing cost. And when they leave, they keep those clothes too.

I have worked at many retail, catering & customer service roles before my own business. At most I have only been provided with a top. I have never ever been provided with shoes, even at large National companies, nor has anyone I know. I'm only aware of Air Hostesses recieving work shoes.

SO

Going forward. Provide all the staff details - NOT A PROBLEM - I was mearly asking are they right to ask for that as I had been told that was not correct.
If they feel staff have felt they need to purchase clothes at their expense, what then?
I can't pay all ex staff for uniform they may have bought, as no-one is going to keep receipts, not have evidence of what they bought. Also they would still have those items, and would have most likely worn them at other employment.
Would they try & estimate a proportion of cost to each ex employee for clothes, then I have to repay this? Eg top £4, trousers £6, shoes £8. They worked for me for 6 months, these items would last 12, I owe £9 for the 6m they wore for me?

For current staff & future staff.
Either relax the uniform policy to any colour, or say wear the closest you have to dark colours. And specify DO NOT PURCHASE BLACK SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS JOB.

Increase wage by a small amount, which would cover me for all purchases they make for themselves.

or

Provide a uniform, but am I allowed to take a deposit, which is returned with final pay?

Would I really be fined for this small issue? A grey area as it is not written they must wear XYZ, but it may be implied? Especially as staff were not wearing black on the visit. Multicoloured trousers, patterned tops, greys etc. Which again proves it's not forced, just preffered.

 

[Newchodge]

If, and it is if, HMRC decide that you required staff to make purchases that took them under NMW, they can require that you pay what you should have paid and calculate how much that is. They can fine you on top of that. But look back at your posts on here and see how your dress code has developed - what you said in your first post is not what you said in your last.

Going forward it is relatively simple. Decide absolutely what your dress code is

- anything goes, they wear what they like and pay for it themselves.
- black cotton polo shirt and black trousers, not jeans, and black flat lace-up shoes, you supply it or pay for it.
- smart clothing, if someone comes to you and says I have nothing that fits the bill, you supply something appropriate that is returned to you when you leave.

You cannot charge NMW staff a deposit against their clothing as you must pay NMW in each pay period or, if there is a reason that has not happened, it must be made up in the next pay period.

Increasing wages a bit will not help as you cannot be certain they are still above NMW when they have paid for specific clothing.

 

[Mr D]

Interestingly all of us expect staff to come into work wearing clothes....
Should we be doing that?

 

[SunshineSheila]

First post - Staff wear black, clean clothes, & clean trainers. I don't provide it.
Last post - Especially as staff were not wearing black on the visit. Multicoloured trousers, patterned tops, greys etc. Which again proves it's not forced, just preferred.

This is what I told HMRC my uniform requirements are. 'black, clean clothes, & clean trainers'
They asked me what happens if staff do not wear black, I said darks are fine, black preferred.
They asked what if someone comes to work in the wrong clothes, I said I wouldn't send them home, I'd just ask they made more effort in future.

On the day of their visit, most had black trousers, black tops, some (including one interviewed with hippy trousers) had diferent colours.

I say to staff please wear black tops, black trousers, clean trainers/shoes. I don't specify style (polo/t-shirt/shirt) or material (jeans, leggings, sports trousers) same for shoes. Trainers, uggs, crocs, boots, pumps, I specify clean. As in not covered in mud, not polished to a shine (as that would last 3mins!)

Am I allowed to specify some prohibited items eg for safety reasons, no shorts, no flip flops, no heels, no crop tops?
Or for modesty - no profanities, racist, bigotted, rude pictures/slogans?

Is there any business paying NMW that actually provides shoes?

 

[SunshineSheila]

Interestingly all of us expect staff to come into work wearing clothes....
Should we be doing that?

ACTUALLY this could be an amazing business plan. NUGGETS IN THE NUDE ;-)

 

[SunshineSheila]

2Front-of-house staff are required to wear black jeans or a black skirt with their branded Wagamama top. The government considered this asking the staff to buy a uniform.

But as AccountingWEB member New Moon (link removed), “The case seems to centre around asking staff to wear a particular colour or style of clothing is effectively creating a uniform, even though the items of clothing don’t have a logo and would previously be called dual purpose by HMRC.”

Sounds like the rules changed at some point?

 

[Mr D]

ACTUALLY this could be an amazing business plan. NUGGETS IN THE NUDE ;-)

Aprons to protect bits as needed but yes, could draw quite a crowd. And the BBC would give you tens of thousands of pounds in free advertising. Makes that licence fee worth it at last eh?

 

[Scalloway]

I presume this is the post you tried to link to.

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/black-jeans-as-uniform-wagamama-minimum-wage-case

This answer suggested that what tax law says and NMW requirements are completely different things.

IUI Wagamama's failure was that they did *not* pay a uniform allowance over and above the minimum wage. They just required employees to wear certain clothing. After deducting reasonable costs of such clothing from the pay the employees were left with a net rate of pay below the NMW. The employer could have avoided that NMW failure by (a) paying a specific allowance for clothing or (b) a rate of pay with sufficient headroom to cover the clothing. Either way as far as I can see there's no implication for tax.

I find it helpful to bear in mind that what is and isn't pay for NMW purposes is not and never was based on tax definitions.

 

[SunshineSheila]

Going forward. Provide all the staff details - NOT A PROBLEM - I was mearly asking are they right to ask for that as I had been told that was not correct.
If they feel staff have felt they need to purchase clothes at their expense, what then?
I can't pay all ex staff for uniform they may have bought, as no-one is going to keep receipts, not have evidence of what they bought. Also they would still have those items, and would have most likely worn them at other employment.
Would they try & estimate a proportion of cost to each ex employee for clothes, then I have to repay this? Eg top £4, trousers £6, shoes £8. They worked for me for 6 months, these items would last 12, I owe £9 for the 6m they wore for me?

For current staff & future staff.
Either relax the uniform policy to any colour, or say wear the closest you have to dark colours. And specify DO NOT PURCHASE BLACK SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS JOB.

Increase wage by a small amount, which would cover me for all purchases they make for themselves.

or

Provide a uniform, but am I allowed to take a deposit, which is returned with final pay?

Would I really be fined for this small issue? A grey area as it is not written they must wear XYZ, but it may be implied? Especially as staff were not wearing black on the visit. Multicoloured trousers, patterned tops, greys etc. Which again proves it's not forced, just preferred.

 

[Newchodge]

You don't have to convince us of anything. You have had the advice you are asking for several times, asking over again will not change the advice, and even if it did, it is HMRC who will decide what happens.

In case you missed it, I repeat the advice

If, and it is if, HMRC decide that you required staff to make purchases that took them under NMW, they can require that you pay what you should have paid and calculate how much that is. They can fine you on top of that. But look back at your posts on here and see how your dress code has developed - what you said in your first post is not what you said in your last.

Going forward it is relatively simple. Decide absolutely what your dress code is

- anything goes, they wear what they like and pay for it themselves.
- black cotton polo shirt and black trousers, not jeans, and black flat lace-up shoes, you supply it or pay for it.
- smart clothing, if someone comes to you and says I have nothing that fits the bill, you supply something appropriate that is returned to you when you leave.

You cannot charge NMW staff a deposit against their clothing as you must pay NMW in each pay period or, if there is a reason that has not happened, it must be made up in the next pay period.

Increasing wages a bit will not help as you cannot be certain they are still above NMW when they have paid for specific clothing.

 

[Bushman]

Just out of curiosity, we don't have a dress code but we do insist that employees don't wear open toed shoes, any normal shoe will do but they must be fully enclosed, Should we be providing them?

 

[Newchodge]

Just out of curiosity, we don't have a dress code but we do insist that employees don't wear open toed shoes, any normal shoe will do but they must be fully enclosed, Should we be providing them?

Probably not - there cannot be many people who don't own a pair of normal shoes as few people would wear open toed shoes in winter. This only applies, anyway, if you are paying at or near NMW.