Naming and shaming?

[deanpunchard]

Hello,

I'm looking for some advice / guidance.

Over the past 12 months, I've had 2 bad thing happen, one being a bad supplier, the other a devious client.

The supplier has failed to deliver a project over 12 months after the agreement was put in place and deposit paid. I'm in the process of trying to recoup the deposit, but losing faith.

The other was a client, who it appears is nothing more than a con man. When the work reached £1000, the client was issued an invoice. Since then they haven't paid, won't return calls. After hiring a company to chase said client and debt, the guy can't be traced, and appears he's used false identities. I have also found out he was taken money from his clients, and not provided a service. I have since reported him for fraud, as have others I have spoken to.

Both of these events have left me really questioning my business decisions, and lessons have really been learnt. It hasn't been a very nice 12 months, but a bit of self reflection and I'm ready to move on.

So my question is this, should I name and shame? In one sense I have nothing to lose, the chances of me seeing the money is very little. Also, this isn't about petty "revenge", but instead more about making others aware what they're like and to avoid them in the future.

When reading up on naming and shaming, many folk say it's bad PR for the people doing the naming, and it's best to keep quiet. But others think there's no harm.

Anyway, your thoughts and experiences would be welcome!

Dean

 

[Ashley_Price]

I have nothing to lose, the chances of me seeing the money is very little. Also, this isn't about petty "revenge", but instead more about making others aware what they're like and to avoid them in the future.

When reading up on naming and shaming, many folk say it's bad PR for the people doing the naming, and it's best to keep quiet. But others think there's no harm.

I think you would need to very careful about doing this. As opposed to having "nothing to lose" you could end up facing a slander or libel suit by the people you have "named and shamed".

From the website of a firm of solicitors specialising in libel: "A person is libelled if the words expose him or her to the risk of being discredited in his trade, business, office, or profession."

So, you would need to make sure, at the very least that everything you put down is fact and not opinion or hearsay. The law allows you to report on what is true or comment on a fact based on truth.

Sadly, many people are likely to be scammed early on in their businesses, see my post Beware Wyn and Daveyou'll see what happened to me at the end of 2015.

But, as you have said, it's time to move on, and all the time you are going back over it - or naming and shaming, you won't be able to move on, you'll just be raking over the ashes again and reigniting the flames.

 

[Jamie Williams]

Hi mate, where said client and supplier business's??

 

[simon field]

If I may be so bold.. The very fact you're asking the question on here suggests doubt. In which case do nowt. Do not worry about 'warning others'.

You've said yourself that lessons were learnt - just leave it at that imho

Life is too short.

 

[chatoyant]

Your intention to warn other is good but it also means that you can't move on. If I were I will let their own fate judge them. Just move on.

What's important is that you learned a lesson.

 

[14Steve14]

Personally I would not name and shame. If it can be linked back to you and your business it may make you look bad.

What I would do is to learn from this and try not to make the same mistakes again. Put procedures in place to stop them happening and to at least lower the effects if they do happen. Chase clients up sooner for both work and payments. Get them to sign or agree to a contract so you all know where you stand.

 

[AllUpHere]

You can kid yourself that you just want to warn people, but everyone else knows you are just after a quick bit of revenge to make yourself feel better. Draw a line under it and use the time you would have wasted on it doing something more productive.

 

[The Byre]

I have since reported him for fraud, as have others I have spoken to.

The right thing to do.

name and shame?

Not the right thing to do.

In future, you should research your customers better. If they use a Ltd., look 'em up on DueDil or Companies House or one of the dozen or so other company info sites. If the people in question have a record of failed companies, or run a collection of inter-related companies that seem to be of little or no substance, or the company in question does not have the turnover or directors' loans to merit giving them credit, avoid or ask for money in advance.

If you can find no info on them at all, ask for money in advance.

If a company is asking for work for £3,000 to be done on credit and the entire substance of the company is just a few thousand, that £3,000 is possibly more than they can swallow. You are not a bank!

These search tools are very useful and allow any business or investor to check the veracity of any claims made. For example, we had a gentleman on this very forum, looking for investments in his musical events company start-up. It sounded interesting and the sort of gig I might be able to invest in.

He claimed to have run a security company of some substance in the past. A quick check told me that he had indeed had a directorship in two such companies, but neither had ever traded, other than to file a single return with a turnover of one pound. He also made other claims about past activities in the music biz that did not sound very plausible. We were obviously dealing with a fantasist.

So my 30 cents worth is - look before you leap!

 

[Deleted member 287446]

I might add that some kind of contract is always helpful especially if you need legal recourse. Usually chasing small debts is expensive and dishonourable people know that. I would put this down to experience and move on.

 

[deanpunchard]

I think you would need to very careful about doing this. As opposed to having "nothing to lose" you could end up facing a slander or libel suit by the people you have "named and shamed".

From the website of a firm of solicitors specialising in libel: "A person is libelled if the words expose him or her to the risk of being discredited in his trade, business, office, or profession."

So, you would need to make sure, at the very least that everything you put down is fact and not opinion or hearsay. The law allows you to report on what is true or comment on a fact based on truth.

Sadly, many people are likely to be scammed early on in their businesses, see my post Beware Wyn and Daveyou'll see what happened to me at the end of 2015.

But, as you have said, it's time to move on, and all the time you are going back over it - or naming and shaming, you won't be able to move on, you'll just be raking over the ashes again and reigniting the flames.

Thanks for the advice on libel and what to say. I'm a very straight up guy, and don't sling mud.

If I may be so bold.. The very fact you're asking the question on here suggests doubt. In which case do nowt. Do not worry about 'warning others'.

You've said yourself that lessons were learnt - just leave it at that imho

Life is too short.

I've lost too much sleep over this. The bad client isn't the main issue, but the supplier. Never again will I pay so much up front. He came highly recommended from a friend, so I really have to question my judgement in future.

Your intention to warn other is good but it also means that you can't move on. If I were I will let their own fate judge them. Just move on.

What's important is that you learned a lesson.

What goes around comes around right?!

Personally I would not name and shame. If it can be linked back to you and your business it may make you look bad.

What I would do is to learn from this and try not to make the same mistakes again. Put procedures in place to stop them happening and to at least lower the effects if they do happen. Chase clients up sooner for both work and payments. Get them to sign or agree to a contract so you all know where you stand.

Contracts are good and well, but they're only enforceable if I can trace the bad client, which I can't.

You can kid yourself that you just want to warn people, but everyone else knows you are just after a quick bit of revenge to make yourself feel better. Draw a line under it and use the time you would have wasted on it doing something more productive.

Revenge really isn't what I want, I want the cash! The revenge will come when the police catch up with the bad client, and I'll smile when I see him in court.

The right thing to do.

Not the right thing to do.

In future, you should research your customers better. If they use a Ltd., look 'em up on DueDil or Companies House or one of the dozen or so other company info sites. If the people in question have a record of failed companies, or run a collection of inter-related companies that seem to be of little or no substance, or the company in question does not have the turnover or directors' loans to merit giving them credit, avoid or ask for money in advance.

If you can find no info on them at all, ask for money in advance.

If a company is asking for work for £3,000 to be done on credit and the entire substance of the company is just a few thousand, that £3,000 is possibly more than they can swallow. You are not a bank!

These search tools are very useful and allow any business or investor to check the veracity of any claims made. For example, we had a gentleman on this very forum, looking for investments in his musical events company start-up. It sounded interesting and the sort of gig I might be able to invest in.

He claimed to have run a security company of some substance in the past. A quick check told me that he had indeed had a directorship in two such companies, but neither had ever traded, other than to file a single return with a turnover of one pound. He also made other claims about past activities in the music biz that did not sound very plausible. We were obviously dealing with a fantasist.

So my 30 cents worth is - look before you leap!

I have learnt massively from this, and now looking back the bad client had all the warning signs. No personal details, no company formation, no permanent address, not even a social media presence. I now always spend some time researching a client.

I might add that some kind of contract is always helpful especially if you need legal recourse. Usually chasing small debts is expensive and dishonourable people know that. I would put this down to experience and move on.

I have a good contract, that serves me well on every job I do.

With regards to my supplier, this was a bit sketchier, and I should have had a formal agreement in place. I have emails, invoices paid, etc, but getting a refund is tricky, and could be expensive. I'm down £1000, which is pretty much my development / advertising budget. It might not sound like a lot to many people, but to me it's a big hit, in a year that hasn't been overly cracking!

Anyway, thanks for all your advice, and I think just biting my tongue, and moving on is the best way forward.

Dean

 

[AllUpHere]

The thread is about naming and shaming. How is that going to get you the cash? Like I said, you can fool yourself.

 

[deanpunchard]

The thread is about naming and shaming. How is that going to get you the cash? Like I said, you can fool yourself.

I guess I've almost given up on the hope of getting the money back, especially with the bad client, and just wanted to hear what others would do. If I was intent on naming and shaming, then I wouldn't consult with others, and I would have just done it.

However my dignity, self respect and professionalism have perhaps made me think twice, and what you guys have said have confirmed what I already suspected.

 

[AllUpHere]

Your dignity, self respect and professionalism will all get a little boost if you simply rise above it and get on with running your business. Don't let scum drag you down to their level.

 

[deanpunchard]

Your dignity, self respect and professionalism will all get a little boost if you simply rise above it and get on with running your business. Don't let scum drag you down to their level.

 

[Deleted member 287446]

You always have small claims court which is probably the easiest recourse for small outstanding sums. However, I always look at these issues as a lesson learned, when you start winning the bigger contracts with significant liabilities to you, then due diligence works and this experience today will stand you in good stead for the future.

 

[Ashley_Price]

You always have small claims court which is probably the easiest recourse for small outstanding sums.

Although this won't help if the person can't be found, as the OP says "...the guy can't be traced, and appears he's used false identities."

 

[TODonnell]

You could bide your time, then simply review them on any site where others are doing so, also.

I think there are sites where you can simply lists scams, as well.

Depends on how much energy you want to put into it.

A long, detailed review on Amazon or Trustpilot which calmly dissects what the scammer did wrong can be devastating, IMHO.

 

[Simon Baker]

Only warn others after you have obtained collaborative legal evidence.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Say nothing and let them go to your competitors and give them hassle

Marginal gains that's what it is all about