Music Licence

[whitegoatie]

Hi, for about 3 years I have had a PRS licence, believing that this was what was required to enable me to listen to the radio in our shop.

Yesterday we had a vist from a guy from another licenceing agency, the PPL. He claims we also need a licence from them. The PPL literature says we need a licence from them if we play recorded music, we dont play recordings, we listen to the radio. Im guessing that because the broadcaster is playing recordings we have to pay, is this right?

If it is true its going to be quiet in here from now on....

 

[Zeno]

Hi, for about 3 years I have had a PRS licence, believing that this was what was required to enable me to listen to the radio in our shop.

Yesterday we had a vist from a guy from another licenceing agency, the PPL. He claims we also need a licence from them. The PPL literature says we need a licence from them if we play recorded music, we dont play recordings, we listen to the radio. Im guessing that because the broadcaster is playing recordings we have to pay, is this right?

If it is true its going to be quiet in here from now on....

There is a long standing thread on this very subject on the legal forum. Makes for very interesting reading. You should be able to find it via the search function.

 

[i234i]

Tell them to get stuffed!

 

[whitegoatie]

Tell them to get stuffed!

Right On!!

Just listening to 'rfmradio.co.uk', royalty free music radio, will take some getting used to and the staff are revolting, but I knew that anyway

Sick and tired of being expected to fork out all the time....

 

[Shopboy76]

Hi, for about 3 years I have had a PRS licence, believing that this was what was required to enable me to listen to the radio in our shop.

Yesterday we had a vist from a guy from another licenceing agency, the PPL. He claims we also need a licence from them. The PPL literature says we need a licence from them if we play recorded music, we dont play recordings, we listen to the radio. Im guessing that because the broadcaster is playing recordings we have to pay, is this right?

If it is true its going to be quiet in here from now on....

The Sad truth is traditionally playing the radio/CD's in a work environment requires 2 x licenses. 1x PRS to compensate the composer of the music 1 to PPL to compensate the performer for the music. The usual costs often total £300 upwards.

Try Amazing Instore from Amazing Radio. They're the UK and Europe's largest provider of original artist PRS/PPL exempt music. Essentially allows you to dispense with your expensive licenses and support new and emerging artists.

 

[Christine Hough]

I'll mention this here as well as on other posts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17379436

If its a shop and playing is for the public it might not help you... but it might help someone else.

 

[UKMusicLicenseManagement]

Unfortunately you will require both PRS & PPL licensing for your radio as the radio is broadcasting sound recordings but just in case this could save you some money if you do decide to keep it and assuming that you are not already being charged as such by PRS:

Assuming you have/are being correctly charged by PRS under tariff 'RS' (for Shops/Stores);

If your premises floor space area is less than 100 square metres then the charge for a Radio depends upon the definition of the device.
ie: Is it purely a singular small portable radio device with integrated speaker? - as opposed to a Radio with seperate speakers or a radio, CD/Cassette player for example.

If so the cost of the singular small portable radio device with integrated speaker as defined above is £79.00 + VAT per annum.

As opposed to a Radio with seperate speakers or any other device combination which costs £146.60 + VAT per annum.

these figures are also assuming you are not on PRS' higher rate charge.


To answer why you need both PRS/PPL licensing simultaneously:

The only time that a premises would ever need just one license for the 'public performance' of music is where a premises only has LIVE performance(s) & absolutely no recorded music use or devices (inc. TV, Radio, Tape, Vinyl, CD, MP3 inc. i-pod docking station, Digital Music System, PC/Laptop etc).

LIVE only = PRS Only.
LIVE & RECORDED = PRS & PPL simultaneously.
RECORDED only = PRS & PPL simultaneously.

Why?

There are essentially 5 x 'groups' with intellectual property rights held in 99.9% (est.) of the music we use/hear/listen to;

*Lyricist(s).
*Composer(s).
*Publisher(s).
*Performer(s).
*Recording Company(s).

Each of these are have their royalties collected in the UK by one the two collection societies, PRS for music & PPL (assuming they are members).

PRS = Lyricists, Composers & Publishers.
PPL = Performers & Recording Companies.

Additionally, PRS protect the Original Work & PPL the Sound Recording.

Therefore you will always require a license from PRS whether the music is being performed LIVE or a Recording of any of their members work being played, where as because PPL protect the Sound Recording (of the members) then you will never need a license from them for any LIVE performance only Recordings, ie: radio in your shop.

Don't forget, if you do decide to cancel your license you must let them know straight away and at least 30days ahead of your annual license renewal with PRS otherwise you could be charged for a minimum one months proportionate license fee payable within 14days.

Hope this helps & clarifies rather than confuses.

All the best & regards

 

[simon_trainor]

Can anyone offer any advice if you are only utilising a TV?

We are not broadcasting any music channels and mainly the TV is on BBC1. And we have a TV licence.

After querying things with PPL, I was told by them that we need to have one as the composers, etc need to receive royalties for the music they created.

They sent me an invoice, which I queried and didn't hear back from them for a while. I received a further "surcharge" email and consequently a debt collector agency letter.

I phoned them today to query it and with a click of a mouse, they reduced it to the £71.72 cost

Why should we need one for a TV?

Are they legally enforceable?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Simon

 

[UKMusicLicenseManagement]

Can anyone offer any advice if you are only utilising a TV?

We are not broadcasting any music channels and mainly the TV is on BBC1. And we have a TV licence.

After querying things with PPL, I was told by them that we need to have one as the composers, etc need to receive royalties for the music they created.

They sent me an invoice, which I queried and didn't hear back from them for a while. I received a further "surcharge" email and consequently a debt collector agency letter.

I phoned them today to query it and with a click of a mouse, they reduced it to the £71.72 cost

Why should we need one for a TV?

Are they legally enforceable?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Simon

Hi Simon

Unfortunately in addition to your existing BBC TV license you will also require the following licenses regardless of channel(s):

1 x PPL License (they represent Performers & Record Companies)
1 x PRS License (they represent composers, publishers & lyricists)

This is due to every channel using music whether in the background or as a feature in most of their broadcasts, even the news channels.

The BBC TV License unfortunately does not cover you/your business/your premises for the music that is coming out of the speakers.

UK copyright law (Copyright, Designs & Patents Act 1988) deems any music coming from the device, whether it is a TV set, Radio, CD player, MP3 player etc as being a 'public performance' (if the music use is outside of the 'domestic environment', in other words outside of your home, car, boat etc) of copyright music such as that played via the TV device's speakers.

Most programming on most if not all channels will use copyright music most of the time but we often don't notice it... background compositions within documentaries, dramas, commercials and even the news etc.

Sorry about that Simon.

In terms of enforcement, both PPL & PRS are the two collection societies that license for 'public performance' of copyright music (if they represent the copyright holders) and they are both legally required for recorded music (anything other than live performance).

They would both initially contract out any unpaid license fees to a third party debt collection agency in addition to their own credit control depts communications, if still unpaid, they could eventually take civil action for copyright infringment adding their legal costs on top then bailiff action to recover if still unpaid.

However, that's worst case scenario.

Good luck & regards



UK Music License Management.

 

[hotel-man]

WHAT IF.....

Our hotel has 18 bedrooms, each with a TV.

We dont have any music in the bar (but might if we can find decent royalty free stuff).

Do we need licences for music from TVs in the rooms as this is for the personal use of individual guests.

Thanks

 

[webgeek]

Gotten used to a lot of BS in my life, but the entire concept of buying music then having to pay in order to listen to it is absolutely absurd, just as is listening to the radio, tv, streaming internet tunes, and so on.

Why not just tax everyone with ears and then they can listen to whatever they want wherever they go FFS.

 

[herewegoagain.]

Unfortunately you will require both PRS & PPL licensing for your radio as the radio is broadcasting sound recordings but just in case this could save you some money if you do decide to keep it and assuming that you are not already being charged as such by PRS:

Assuming you have/are being correctly charged by PRS under tariff 'RS' (for Shops/Stores);

If your premises floor space area is less than 100 square metres then the charge for a Radio depends upon the definition of the device.
ie: Is it purely a singular small portable radio device with integrated speaker? - as opposed to a Radio with seperate speakers or a radio, CD/Cassette player for example.

If so the cost of the singular small portable radio device with integrated speaker as defined above is £79.00 + VAT per annum.

As opposed to a Radio with seperate speakers or any other device combination which costs £146.60 + VAT per annum.

these figures are also assuming you are not on PRS' higher rate charge.


To answer why you need both PRS/PPL licensing simultaneously:

The only time that a premises would ever need just one license for the 'public performance' of music is where a premises only has LIVE performance(s) & absolutely no recorded music use or devices (inc. TV, Radio, Tape, Vinyl, CD, MP3 inc. i-pod docking station, Digital Music System, PC/Laptop etc).

LIVE only = PRS Only.
LIVE & RECORDED = PRS & PPL simultaneously.
RECORDED only = PRS & PPL simultaneously.

Why?

There are essentially 5 x 'groups' with intellectual property rights held in 99.9% (est.) of the music we use/hear/listen to;

*Lyricist(s).
*Composer(s).
*Publisher(s).
*Performer(s).
*Recording Company(s).

Each of these are have their royalties collected in the UK by one the two collection societies, PRS for music & PPL (assuming they are members).

PRS = Lyricists, Composers & Publishers.
PPL = Performers & Recording Companies.

Additionally, PRS protect the Original Work & PPL the Sound Recording.

Therefore you will always require a license from PRS whether the music is being performed LIVE or a Recording of any of their members work being played, where as because PPL protect the Sound Recording (of the members) then you will never need a license from them for any LIVE performance only Recordings, ie: radio in your shop.

Don't forget, if you do decide to cancel your license you must let them know straight away and at least 30days ahead of your annual license renewal with PRS otherwise you could be charged for a minimum one months proportionate license fee payable within 14days.

Hope this helps & clarifies rather than confuses.

All the best & regards

It is just another way for the PPL and PRS bullies to try and shaft you out of your hard earned money - The artists/writers, et al, have had their money already, when the cd or download was originally sold... What do the broadcasters of the music pay? oh, I bet PRS/PPL get a big wedge of that !!

What do PRS/PPL give you in return - nothing..... absolutely nothing... 'oooohhhh Mr PRS, Mr PRL, I will bend over while you lube me up!' -

Do 'they' chase after illegal downloaders of music? I bet not..... static targets are easier - ie shops !!! alleged legalised robbery!!! Robbing B*stards!!

I would love to know what their executives 'earn' !!!

 

[UKMusicLicenseManagement]

WHAT IF.....

Our hotel has 18 bedrooms, each with a TV.

We dont have any music in the bar (but might if we can find decent royalty free stuff).

Do we need licences for music from TVs in the rooms as this is for the personal use of individual guests.

Thanks

Hi Hotel-man

Unfortunately yes, the TV's in the letting bedrooms will need licensing by both PRS & PPL.

For hotels with Terrestrial television and/or satellite/cable television and/or radio and/or video players within their letting bedrooms:

PRS will cost £46.92 per annum per 15 x letting bedrooms or part thereof + VAT.

Alternative and/or additional devices; CD, MP3, Tape, record player will increase this fee.

If you are a seasonal hotel open for 26 weeks or less per annum PRS provide a reduced license fee.

With regard to PPL and regardless of the device types, ie: TV, MP3, CD etc, Small Residential Hotels & Guest Houses with no more than 25 bedrooms and where a "Residential Licence" has been granted, limiting the premises to residents and bonafide guests only the license fee should cost £54.98 + VAT per annum.

Hope this helps hotel-man.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but all the best & good luck....

Regards


UK Music License Management

 

[UKMusicLicenseManagement]

PS: To hotel-man...

Before you buy any royalty free music product or service check with PRS and/or PPL the name of the supplier/product first as they will be able to confirm if indeed it is copyright/royalty/license free.

You can do this completely anonymously if you don't want to give your details and if they cannot answer immediately you can e-mail the info. instead.

Surprisingly out of probably hundreds of companies selling these services/products very few are actually confirmed as such by the two collecting societies (PRS/PPL) and often people buy them and later find they still need a or both licenses.

Regards


UK Music License Management

 

[avantime]

A few years ago, before I closed the business, I had the bullyboy phone calls from the PRS. After one call I did a credit check on them and their accounts show a HUGE amount of monies collected. There were one or two Government Ministers on the list of Directors. It got me wondering how much of the money collected went to the performers and how much on the "running" of the PRS!!

Would be interesting to see now if the list of directors is much different.....

 

[daniel.benson]

May be of some help.

http://routenote.com/blog/prs-performing-rights-scam/

 

[UKMusicLicenseManagement]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Well, I don't think you require a license for music from TVs since you are in a hotel room and would have already made payment for the bedrooms that has an attached TV. Only the individual guests residing in the rooms are formally licensed to enjoy music.[/FONT]

Hi Mathew4

Unfortunately hotels and even B&B's (unless they fall into a PRS/PPL Discretionary Charging Policy) do legally require licensing for all music use within their premises including paying for the devices capable of playing music (inc. TV) within their letting bedrooms.

Just as with any other business premises, the business running the premises is required to obtain the relevant PRS/PPL license(s) not the 'end user' (in the case guests).

Regards


UK Music License Management

 

[simon field]

PPL phoned me at work the other day and said "Is that the radio I can hear playing in the background?"

"Yes it is", I replied.

He then started to waffle on about license fees so I had to interject - "It's coming from the unit next door. Loud, isn't it!".

He was happy with this and apologized for taking up my time.

Job done.

 

[Trisha&ChrisPlant]

PPL phoned me at work the other day and said "Is that the radio I can hear playing in the background?"

"Yes it is", I replied.

He then started to waffle on about license fees so I had to interject - "It's coming from the unit next door. Loud, isn't it!".

He was happy with this and apologized for taking up my time.

Job done.

Thanks for making my day Simon. That's the funniest thing I have heard in ages. I have laughed so much over your post that I just couldn't speak - and Chris has just come into the room, wondering what the matter was, and I still couldn't speak, I could only make gasping noises, and point to the screen ...

 

[simon field]

Thank you Trish, likewise it makes my day to create laughter thus!

Just keep away from the jokes thread if you want to preserve your innocence

 

[Trisha&ChrisPlant]

Thank you Trish, likewise it makes my day to create laughter thus!

Just keep away from the jokes thread if you want to preserve your innocence

I'd better go and check that out....

 

[kulture]

PPL phoned me at work the other day and said "Is that the radio I can hear playing in the background?"

"Yes it is", I replied.

He then started to waffle on about license fees so I had to interject - "It's coming from the unit next door. Loud, isn't it!".

He was happy with this and apologized for taking up my time.

Job done.

Next time say its the BUILDERS working outside. Otherwise the poor sod working next door will get a bill. For some reason builders get an exemption from the PRS/PPL.

 

[Sophi Chamus]

Hi, for about 3 years I have had a PRS licence, believing that this was what was required to enable me to listen to the radio in our shop.

Yesterday we had a vist from a guy from another licenceing agency, the PPL. He claims we also need a licence from them. The PPL literature says we need a licence from them if we play recorded music, we dont play recordings, we listen to the radio. Im guessing that because the broadcaster is playing recordings we have to pay, is this right?

If it is true its going to be quiet in here from now on....

Hi there x I had both after me for months. Then I realised that I actually sell the music that I play. I phoned the music company up and told them I was being hassled and they sent me an exemption certificte. Could you sell cd's in your shop ? I can let you know the music makers name x

 

[Arriba]

The musical dentist and the collecting society



Società Consortile Fonografici (SCF) v Marco Del Corso

In this dispute between a collecting society and a dentist in Italy, the Court of Justice of the European Union (the CJEU) made it clear that for the purposes of the Rental Directive (Directive 92/100/EC) the playing of music to patients in a dentist's surgery was not a "communication to the public". In reaching this conclusion the CJEU regarded both the number of people communicated to and the reasons (profit making or otherwise) for the communication to be relevant:

• the patients were not "persons in general" (they were a relatively fixed circle, as other people did not generally have access to treatment by that dentist)
• they were insignificant in number ("the public" excludes groups that are too small)
• they heard the music without any active choice on their part; and
• they did not choose to attend this dentist or pay what they paid for treatment because of the music (the music broadcast was not likely, in itself, to have an impact on the income of that dentist - therefore it was not considered profit-making in nature).

This decision of the CJEU is to be contrasted with earlier decisions where it has ruled the playing of sound recordings in hotel rooms was a "communication to the public". Such provision was to a "not insignificant" group and was part of the package of services that enabled the hotels to charge the rates they did.
The British Dental Association's Chief Executive welcomed the CJEU's Del Corso decision and sought confirmation "...that this decision applies equally to the United Kingdom and should take immediate effect" and "assurances from both the Performing Rights Society and the Phonographic Performance Ltd that [they] will refund dentists who have already paid this year's licence".
The PRS and the PPL quickly pointed out they would still be seeking license fees from dentists and similar businesses. This was because they enforced infringement by performance/playing the relevant musical or literary works or sound recordings or broadcasting them (respectively) "in public" as well as or instead of by "communication to the public".
The public playing/broadcasting forms of infringement derive purely from UK legislation and unlike "communication to the public" do not have their roots in an EU Directive. Therefore when considering this type of infringement "the public" means what the UK courts have said it means and not what CJEU said it meant in the Del Corso case.
The UK courts have held that acts, 'in public' mean all acts that do not take place in a private and domestic setting. For example, the owners of a factory that played music broadcasts from the BBC and vinyl records via loudspeakers to their employees were found to be performing/playing musical works 'in public'. This was so even though strangers were not allowed into the factory.
This leaves the rather odd situation where "the public" means one thing in one part of the UK copyright act and another in another part of it. Therefore the UK courts may in future seek to close the gap or a further amendment may be made to UK legislation to bring the two types of infringement into line. Various business groups are lobbying for such a change. If this happens, then the licensing business model of several collecting societies will be significantly affected.

 

[simon field]

Next time say its the BUILDERS working outside. Otherwise the poor sod working next door will get a bill. For some reason builders get an exemption from the PRS/PPL.

Aha but that's the best bit. There is no next door, only a field with a few sheep and donkeys in it

 

[nikkoo]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I don’t think you require a license for music from TVs since you are in a hotel room and would have already made payment for the bedrooms that has an attached TV[/FONT]

 

[UKMusicLicenseManagement]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I don't think you require a license for music from TVs since you are in a hotel room and would have already made payment for the bedrooms that has an attached TV[/FONT]

Hi nikkoo

Only the premises owner/business running the hotel are responsible & liable for the PRS/PPL licensing not their paying customers or guests.

For further confirmation of this you can go directly to PRS for music's web page, type "tariff HR 2012" (PRS' current 2012 tariff for Hotels, Restaurants & Cafes) into their search field (top right corner of their page) and you will find the top search result is a pdf doc. named "HR-2012-07 \Tariff.pdf"

Section 4.5 'Background music in hotel bedrooms, corridors and foyers'.

Equally for PPL, although you will have to locate the relevant PPL pdf tariff guide via a series of drop down menus.

Hope this clarifies.

Regards


UK Music License Management

 

[webgeek]

Glad that none of the remixes I listen to are represented by record labels.

Afraid that even if they were, I'd have to go down the route of streaming from my automobile, which is covered under my home owners license.... It's the source that gets you every time

 

[simon field]

So Christian, are you a supporter of the PRS /PPL attempts to get money out of people who are having molecules of air vibrated upon their eardrums by a radio?

What's your take on it?

 

[ahmed121]

Hi Mathew4

Unfortunately hotels and even B&B's (unless they fall into a PRS/PPL Discretionary Charging Policy) do legally require licensing for all music use within their premises including paying for the devices capable of playing music (inc. TV) within their letting bedrooms.

UK Music License Management

This is incorrect advice from someone with an obvious interest in the profits from licenses.

Hotels and B&Bs do not legally require licensing for ALL music use. It depends on who manages the rights for the music involved, this varies depending on the owner/s of the rights. The PRS and PPL are not catch-all agencies - this cannot be stressed enough! Up and coming, unsigned, artists may WANT you to play their music to help them get exposure - get in touch with them directly and you'll be surprised.

May I make a suggestion? Provide MP3 docks for guests, they can then play their own music privately to themselves in the privacy of their own room. I seriously doubt this would be viewed by a court as the business publicly performing the work. You would not be aware of this and neither would any licensing agency.

I know of a few projects whereby people have raised money to commission their own recordings of public domain compositions and then released the work into the public domain. You would not need a PRS or PPL license for any of this.

Creative Commons / Jamendo might be a good place to start, or get in touch with local artists directly.

The copyright law is being ambushed and abused by extreme interpretation by PRS and PPL.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Creative Commons / Jamendo might be a good place to start, or get in touch with local artists directly.

So you either pay Jamendo 48 Euro or PRS £43. With PRS you get over 99% of the music some of which might just be familiar.