Minimum remuneration to new starter

[Telson]

Hi
I would like to appoint a graduate engineer or trainee engineer for my small company. After reviewing their capability, it seems that I would have to give three or four months training to get some output for my company. Till that time if I pay as probation and some salary, say £1000 per month, it would result in total £5000 for my company in three months and if the person is not of good use, I would lose my £5000.
Is there any way, I can appoint someone for training such a way that there is no legal complication to give minimum wages. Say something like £500 per month to meet their expenses, though I don't get any output. The person has not worked anywhere, struggled to pass the engineering, and as she didn't get any engineering job, for last one year working at somewhere non technical position. So I would have to struggle to get some out put and use their hours so that it can be used in billable hours.
What I would like to know is that if there is any way that I can take someone for training or like that, so that I don't have to pay them so much money and don't need to give holidays payment, sick leave etc.
I am ready to give market salary after say three months, when they are ready to give at least 50% output for the money I spend.
Any advice would be helpful.
Thanks

 

[Hash and Bash]

You sir are a tightwad.
Look at the long term gains not the short term.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Ive just taken on a student who was an intern and only getting paid 4.50 per hr before we took her on. Her internship had to end due to Covid impacting the business she worked for. But she said it was legal for them to pay her that as she was only an intern.

So if you have low budget then maybe an internship is an option for you. Providing you can find someone willing to work for you etc

 

[WaveJumper]

There are various 'levels' of intern if they are classed as a worker they should be receiving minimum wage for the full rules check it out here:
https://www.gov.uk/employment-rights-for-interns

 

[Interestedobserver]

There are various 'levels' of intern if they are classed as a worker they should be receiving minimum wage for the full rules check it out here:
https://www.gov.uk/employment-rights-for-interns

She was on one of these:

Student internships
Students required to do an internship for less than one year as part of a UK-based further or higher education course are not entitled to the National Minimum Wage

 

[Mr D]

Hi
I would like to appoint a graduate engineer or trainee engineer for my small company. After reviewing their capability, it seems that I would have to give three or four months training to get some output for my company. Till that time if I pay as probation and some salary, say £1000 per month, it would result in total £5000 for my company in three months and if the person is not of good use, I would lose my £5000.
Is there any way, I can appoint someone for training such a way that there is no legal complication to give minimum wages. Say something like £500 per month to meet their expenses, though I don't get any output. The person has not worked anywhere, struggled to pass the engineering, and as she didn't get any engineering job, for last one year working at somewhere non technical position. So I would have to struggle to get some out put and use their hours so that it can be used in billable hours.
What I would like to know is that if there is any way that I can take someone for training or like that, so that I don't have to pay them so much money and don't need to give holidays payment, sick leave etc.
I am ready to give market salary after say three months, when they are ready to give at least 50% output for the money I spend.
Any advice would be helpful.
Thanks

If you can find someone to work for minimum wage (why should they take what you are offering?) then you get the fun of paying them minimum wage while you train them and they WILL be applying for other jobs. First one to offer them a job and you lose the person.
Absolutely no reason to stick around.

However if you offer competitive pay then the person is not going to quit / find another job solely over pay issues. Maybe over other issues but not pay.

£500 a month to meet their expenses? Great, so long as its at least minimum wage.
The cost to your business of not paying even minimum wage is considerably higher.

 

[Telson]

I think, may be the best option would be to offer work shadowing for two weeks, let them understand about the company, the work, and then may be I can offer them a permanent role with initial probation.

 

[Mr D]

I think, may be the best option would be to offer work shadowing for two weeks, let them understand about the company, the work, and then may be I can offer them a permanent role with initial probation.

Two weeks?

Have seen as much as 3 days a couple of times. You want to do things on the cheap then do not expect much.
How much will it cost you to do a half dozen times of work shadowing for at least a week at a time? More than doing it just once?

 

[Newchodge]

You will end up with an employee who owes you zero loyalty.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

@Telson Would you give up your life for £500 a month ?

 

[Mark T Jones]

The expression 'pay peanuts get monkeys' springs to mind.

Internships work in sexy jobs, not engineering. Apprenticeships can work in engineering but do involve you, or another key person taking considerable time out to offer the employee great training.

If you are serious about running a business, you'd be far better thinking in terms of how you can recruit, train and retain good people, not how you can penny-pinch from them

 

[WaveJumper]

Put the right interview process's in place, the right package in place, the right training in place then go out and find the right person thats fits your criteria. And until you find that don't settle for second best.

 

[Deleted member 335660]

Hi
I would like to appoint a graduate engineer or trainee engineer for my small company. After reviewing their capability, it seems that I would have to give three or four months training to get some output for my company. Till that time if I pay as probation and some salary, say £1000 per month, it would result in total £5000 for my company in three months and if the person is not of good use, I would lose my £5000.
Is there any way, I can appoint someone for training such a way that there is no legal complication to give minimum wages. Say something like £500 per month to meet their expenses, though I don't get any output. The person has not worked anywhere, struggled to pass the engineering, and as she didn't get any engineering job, for last one year working at somewhere non technical position. So I would have to struggle to get some out put and use their hours so that it can be used in billable hours.
What I would like to know is that if there is any way that I can take someone for training or like that, so that I don't have to pay them so much money and don't need to give holidays payment, sick leave etc.
I am ready to give market salary after say three months, when they are ready to give at least 50% output for the money I spend.
Any advice would be helpful.
Thanks

Hi,
I see you have had a few critical responses so I’ll try and keep it to facts.

I understand from working with companies that their is a shortage of engineers in UK. I know my graduate business students would be looking for £20k jobs so a graduate engineer might want more.

I think in most non labour jobs it takes 3 months for people to get going anyway. Certainly when I was in sales companies never expected me to be on target for first three months.

Finally, continuous training is important for any job like this. Are you suggesting that even once they are achieving output to the level you desire you won’t let them go and do more training?

So look at the person and see if they have the potential and characteristics you desire and take them on at the right salary level from day one.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

My first question would be "Why do you need a graduate Engineer" and the second "why training is so long"

I would expect the engineer to quickly learn the basics of your industry, and have been selected from your people interviewed for that ability, and therefore be earning you money very fast.

Last question is there really a need for a graduate Engineer, maybe the job could be undertaken by a lesser qualified bright spark

 

[IanSuth]

I worked in IT recruitment for 27 yrs but sat opposite the Engineering guy and we helped each other out. I am also married to someone who did an integrated engineering degree

Decent Engineering grads are harder to find than IT grads, the sector is more differentiated and specialist, as in people specialise in electrical or mechanical or aerospace etc etc, think of it this way

They have just spent 3 years and racked up £50k of debt (3 x £9k tuition fee loan plus just £8k a year of living expenses does that), there is an argument for saying you will keep their salary under the fee repayment threshold for a couple of years and then give them a big bump up when you do so the effective 9% graduate tax on salary over £27k doesn't mean limited benefit from a small rise.

But if you want to pay sub £20k you will get a muppet.

Another suggestion is find a local uni that has an engineering course which aligns with your needs (they are all a bit different in speciality so look carefully) and then contact their careers dept re Knowledge Transfer Program placements https://www.gov.uk/guidance/knowledge-transfer-partnerships-what-they-are-and-how-to-apply uni's are partly measured on how many graduates are working in roles relevant to their degrees 6 mths after leaving, so they will do all they can to help you take relevant grads but listen to what they say re £

 

[Ozzy]

Any advice would be helpful.

So much of what you put across in your opening message goes against so much of what I stand for, I feel you are looking at this all wrong. You are looking for an immediate quick win for yourself;

How about investing into this person, someone who from what you say appears to want to work in your industry (an industry I know is lacking up and coming talent based on published LMI). Imagine how grateful and loyal and dedicated that person would be to you and the business, grateful that you believed in them and invested into them. You'd reap the dividends for years to come, if you could look beyond the next couple of months.

Investing in people is a long term strategy, and one that is proven time and time again to be successful.

 

[Paul Norman]

I am biting my tongue a bit here.

Yup. Recruitment carries exactly the financial risk you describe. It also carries immense reward. What if the person is excellent, and earns you a fortune. I assume you will share that fully, and without holdback, with that person? If you want them to bear the risk, then make sure you offer them the reward - all the reward.

If your organisation cannot afford to risk that £5k, then I gently submit that you are not ready for the world of hiring people. It is potentially expensive. It can be frustrating. But if your motive is to get away with as little as possible, you are going to have higher staff turnover, and it will be worse.

I remember being appointed to my first management role, in the 80's.

I had a phone call, as all new manager's did, from the company chairman. He gave a few tips on what he expected from his managers. And one was this. He said 'at pay review time I might be inclined to try to keep your team's wage rises to a minimum. I expect you to fight their corner, and I will listen'.

His view was that we should always aim to in in the upper quartile of the market for remuneration, and that we should seek, demand, and train for, the best.

 

[gpietersz]

I know my graduate business students would be looking for £20k jobs so a graduate engineer might want more.

Engineering degree apprenticeships (so less than full time work and no qualifications beyond A-levels) have salaries ranging from 15k to 20k, although I know of one paying 23k.

If you want to be sure they can do the work without a few months training, hire someone experienced.

nternships work in sexy jobs, not engineering.

My daughter who is starting a degree apprenticeship soon (that is why I know the salary ranges) would like to know what about engineering is not sexy. From the look on her face I think you are lucky she is not asking you face to face

 

[Mark T Jones]

Engineering degree apprenticeships (so less than full time work and no qualifications beyond A-levels) have salaries ranging from 15k to 20k, although I know of one paying 23k.

If you want to be sure they can do the work without a few months training, hire someone experienced.



My daughter who is starting a degree apprenticeship soon (that is why I know the salary ranges) would like to know what about engineering is not sexy. From the look on her face I think you are lucky she is not asking you face to face

Possibly a bad choice of words - 'cuddly' might be better.

A huge thumbs up to engineers from me!

 

[Mr D]

Possibly a bad choice of words - 'cuddly' might be better.

A huge thumbs up to engineers from me!

Engineers don't rule the world. They merely run it.

 

[Financial-Modeller]

...I would lose my £5000...

That's called investment.

As a business, you spend money on recuiting and developing resources to increase your future profit. Presumably you want to hire somebody because you can see a return on their cost in future. Its not without risk.

 

[BeyondTheIllusion]

1. increase your capacity to what it can withstand without taking anyone else on
2. increase your pricing
3. Upsell to existing customers

That will help you increase revenue so you can pay a proper salary to get the right person

 

[gpietersz]

Possibly a bad choice of words - 'cuddly' might be better.

A huge thumbs up to engineers from me!