Manchester Attack
- Thread starter STDFR33
- Start date
Lazy commentary and may I suggest almost apologetic towards Islamist atrocities? Not unlike Corbyn and his views on the IRA.
If you get a moment I can recommend reading Maajid Nawaz's book about how Islamists rely on the complicity of the left to infiltrate Western societies and establish a victimisation culture. He might be wrong of course but as a former member of Hizb ut-Tahrir and founding member of the Quilliam Foundation he has some knowledge of these matters.
Were I do agree is that our 'global elitists' of whom our political class are fully signed up members (champions of Remain and Brexit alike) aggressively impose capitalism at the point of a gun and under a cloak of democracy, adding fuel to what has been a 1,500 year conflict.
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I cannot believe what I just heard on the BBC news. They were talking to an 'expert' about the fact that the murderer's family was from Libya. The expert said that. as Libya is a failed state, it would be difficult to get information from there. No mention of the reason WHY Libya is a failed state. BECAUSE the West destroyed it.
And
without Corbyn and his views on the IRA we would not now have (nearly) peace in Northern Ireland and no more bombing campaigns from them.
And
without Corbyn and his views on the IRA we would not now have (nearly) peace in Northern Ireland and no more bombing campaigns from them.
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I am not an expert on the armed forces, but this person, Rowan McAllan is. I would prefer to trust her word on these issues:
"I will be voting Labour on 8th June.
As a veteran of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces for seven years, I served in Iraq, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar and remotely worked on Kosovo, Sierra Leone and Afghanistan. So, my backing Corbyn may be a surprise to many people.
Please allow me to explain why, as a soldier and an intelligence analyst, I believe Jeremy Corbyn isn’t a threat to national security, but a massive asset as compared to PMs May and Cameron.
Firstly, let me emphasise I have not always supported Labour. I have failed to be inspired by any party leader since John Smith. One of my final acts before deploying to Iraq was to post my party membership card back to PM Blair, explaining why: whether or not there were weapons of mass destruction to be found, there was no long-term plan that would invoke any kind of stability in the country, we were expected to “improvise, adapt and overcome” while the people became more and more angry that there was no delivery on the promises made by our politicians and fundamentalist clerics came over the border from Iran to take advantage of the power vacuum and disenchantment. Incidentally, May also voted in favour of "liberating" (invading) Iraq.
As many in the intelligence community predicted, this situation created the environment for ISIS to replace Al Qaeda as the main Islamic Terrorist threat. After all, we had just cut the head off the Al Qaeda snake; it was searching for another one and we gave it ideal conditions to thrive.
Since then, our Tory government has treated most refugees as sub-human, assaulting them with apparently no recourse, building more fences, arrest and detention without trial, skewed interpretation of reports as to the safety of their homelands, deportation of some to face certain death, destruction - even criminalization - of basic life support services for refugees in northern France denying them food , shelter, medical care, community and reneging on agreements like the Dubbs amendment.
The Conservatives' chronic lack of compassion, understanding or caring about the lives of people from the Middle East and other places has only served to produce more terrorists; while at home cuts to public service budgets, benefits and the health service have resulted in the deaths of several people and many more lives have been put at risk without reducing the overall budget deficit at all. They have also slashed Arts funding to the extent it barely exists, even the great British Bulldog Churchill refused to cut arts funding in favour of the 2nd World War effort. His response? “But then what would we be fighting for?”
Jeremy Corbyn has been smeared spectacularly since becoming leader of the Labour party, being called a Marxist for advocating policies that would have been normal only a few years ago, and are still considered quite centrist in most other European countries. Even the Independent described his manifesto as radical, but that is more a barometer of the right leaning nature of our press than it is of his policies. Blamed for crushing a cameraman’s foot when it was a police officer at the wheel and clearly the cameraman’s fault. Reports of his having been arrested for supporting the IRA are false. He wanted peace and advocated talking instead of shooting or internment without trial, yes he talked to terrorists, so did Major and Blair. He was arrested for obstruction while peacefully protesting the legal process as it was being applied. He wasn’t even charged with anything, let alone found guilty, and I believe we’re still innocent until proven guilty in this country.
It is actually Corbyn’s activist past that gives me faith in him. Far from being a dangerous wafty hippie, his policies are plausible, sound and well thought out. It’s the man’s ability to stand up for what he believes is right, and his ability to survive snipers from both within and without his own party that makes me believe he has both the courage and conviction to be a great leader.
If you think otherwise it is because he has been relentlessly slandered by the media,corporations and his colleagues, who are actually terrified of his ability to lead and to change things for the better for us and the worse for them. He’s even been criticised for saying that he would be cautious about using the nuclear deterrent. Thinking twice before going ahead and vaporising a few thousand civilians? That’s a mark in his favour if you ask me.
**EDIT**
With apologies to the International Churchill Society, it seems he may not be credited with such concise generosity.
He did, in 1938 say:
"The arts are essential to any complete national life. The State owes it to itself to sustain and encourage them….Ill fares the race which fails to salute the arts with the reverence and delight which are their due.”
But this was, of course, before Britain was engaged in a war."
"I will be voting Labour on 8th June.
As a veteran of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces for seven years, I served in Iraq, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar and remotely worked on Kosovo, Sierra Leone and Afghanistan. So, my backing Corbyn may be a surprise to many people.
Please allow me to explain why, as a soldier and an intelligence analyst, I believe Jeremy Corbyn isn’t a threat to national security, but a massive asset as compared to PMs May and Cameron.
Firstly, let me emphasise I have not always supported Labour. I have failed to be inspired by any party leader since John Smith. One of my final acts before deploying to Iraq was to post my party membership card back to PM Blair, explaining why: whether or not there were weapons of mass destruction to be found, there was no long-term plan that would invoke any kind of stability in the country, we were expected to “improvise, adapt and overcome” while the people became more and more angry that there was no delivery on the promises made by our politicians and fundamentalist clerics came over the border from Iran to take advantage of the power vacuum and disenchantment. Incidentally, May also voted in favour of "liberating" (invading) Iraq.
As many in the intelligence community predicted, this situation created the environment for ISIS to replace Al Qaeda as the main Islamic Terrorist threat. After all, we had just cut the head off the Al Qaeda snake; it was searching for another one and we gave it ideal conditions to thrive.
Since then, our Tory government has treated most refugees as sub-human, assaulting them with apparently no recourse, building more fences, arrest and detention without trial, skewed interpretation of reports as to the safety of their homelands, deportation of some to face certain death, destruction - even criminalization - of basic life support services for refugees in northern France denying them food , shelter, medical care, community and reneging on agreements like the Dubbs amendment.
The Conservatives' chronic lack of compassion, understanding or caring about the lives of people from the Middle East and other places has only served to produce more terrorists; while at home cuts to public service budgets, benefits and the health service have resulted in the deaths of several people and many more lives have been put at risk without reducing the overall budget deficit at all. They have also slashed Arts funding to the extent it barely exists, even the great British Bulldog Churchill refused to cut arts funding in favour of the 2nd World War effort. His response? “But then what would we be fighting for?”
Jeremy Corbyn has been smeared spectacularly since becoming leader of the Labour party, being called a Marxist for advocating policies that would have been normal only a few years ago, and are still considered quite centrist in most other European countries. Even the Independent described his manifesto as radical, but that is more a barometer of the right leaning nature of our press than it is of his policies. Blamed for crushing a cameraman’s foot when it was a police officer at the wheel and clearly the cameraman’s fault. Reports of his having been arrested for supporting the IRA are false. He wanted peace and advocated talking instead of shooting or internment without trial, yes he talked to terrorists, so did Major and Blair. He was arrested for obstruction while peacefully protesting the legal process as it was being applied. He wasn’t even charged with anything, let alone found guilty, and I believe we’re still innocent until proven guilty in this country.
It is actually Corbyn’s activist past that gives me faith in him. Far from being a dangerous wafty hippie, his policies are plausible, sound and well thought out. It’s the man’s ability to stand up for what he believes is right, and his ability to survive snipers from both within and without his own party that makes me believe he has both the courage and conviction to be a great leader.
If you think otherwise it is because he has been relentlessly slandered by the media,corporations and his colleagues, who are actually terrified of his ability to lead and to change things for the better for us and the worse for them. He’s even been criticised for saying that he would be cautious about using the nuclear deterrent. Thinking twice before going ahead and vaporising a few thousand civilians? That’s a mark in his favour if you ask me.
**EDIT**
With apologies to the International Churchill Society, it seems he may not be credited with such concise generosity.
He did, in 1938 say:
"The arts are essential to any complete national life. The State owes it to itself to sustain and encourage them….Ill fares the race which fails to salute the arts with the reverence and delight which are their due.”
But this was, of course, before Britain was engaged in a war."
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Pretty sure the West didn't destroy Libya. They had a civil war, we chose a side.
As we have done many other times in history.
The civil war was already ongoing before we got involved.
As to the Libyan connection - is it not a bit early to tell yet?
Could be he was an idiot, could be he was a dupe, could be he was easily led, could be he was involved with a group over other atrocities, could be quite a lot of things. We won't know at this point, and the public may never know.
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No one won. the Libyan people lost big time. I would not ususally use Wikipedia as a source but:
"Since the defeat of loyalist forces, Libya has been torn among numerous rival, armed militias affiliated with distinct regions, cities and tribes, while the central government has been weak and unable effectively to exert its authority over the country. Competing militias have pitted themselves against each other in a political struggle between Islamist politicians and their opponents."
That doesn't sound like a country that has restabilised.
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T
The Byre
This is indeed true, but part of the gig of being a party leader is image and the pulling together of the various fractions within the party. He has mismanaged his image in a spectacular manner. His oratory is poor and his presentation is weak.
Worse still, he has managed to alienate vast chunks of his parliamentary party, resulting in having to dredge up hopelessly unacceptable shadow ministers (e.g. Dianne Abbott) who are obviously not on top of their briefs (insert joke about Dianne's briefs here!)
Throughout the rest of Europe, things like rent control, members of staff on the board, employee protection after a few months, care-insurance, 13 months pay (Christmas money) and a whole host of other things of a similar nature are just taken for granted. Even right-wing Mutti Merkel would never advocate taking these rights away from the people.
Here, if suggest just one of these measures, you are branded a Communist nut-job.
But the funny thing is, all other West European countries that have these rights are RICHER than those that do not. And they nearly all started off being poorer.
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Oh please.... the USA, Britain etc all ignore the GC when it suits them to do so, things get blurry the moment you go onto a battlefield, war is never that simple.
Look, if you wish to pretend the West's actions have no bearing on future events, feel free to be deluded.
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I can't find a citation (my Arabic is a bit rusty) but there was a political discussion show on the Arabic language version of an Al Jazeera during which a woman challenged the presenter and head-nodders all repeating your assertion above of how the West was responsible for all of the Middle East's problems.
She reeled off half a dozen major inter-faith conflicts over the last several hundred years that had nothing to do with the West, and correctly pointed out the tensions throughout the region that have existed for centuries.
The West's globalists add fuel to the fires that already burn for their own political ends, but it's naive to suggest the West caused any of the issues the region struggles with.
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Well, I don't know his reasons, but, given his track record, I would assume it would have been because he knew it was a waste of space because it did not address the issues that needed addressing.
If that were his reason, then he was right. As he was virtually every time he voted against the establishment.
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No one is trying, or even if they tried, could ever justify this despicable crime that resulted in the deaths of 22 innocent people.
What is under discussion is trying to understand WHY it happened in the hope that there may be some way to prevent something similar happening again. Don't you think that is important?
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So if it was because US planes were bombing Syria? If it was because of the country not following Sharia Law? If it was because he didn't like how many fans that singer had?
Security services usually stop plans going ahead by catching the people concerned before they kill people. Intelligence, evidence, arrests etc.
Most of what they do you won't find out - the information doesn't generate an arrest or the person falls off the radar as other more important priorities are assigned.
The actual why may be never known. We can speculate based on what his family and friends say, we can speculate based on his known actions. But as he cannot be interviewed its impossible to know why for certain. At best you have 2nd hand information that may or may not be relevant - or more commonly a selection of reasons of which one, more than one, or none may be the truth.
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I'm not a fan of Corbyn or his views, but I would concede of all the leaders he has the most consistent and steadfast beliefs regarding conflicts etc. I might not agree with him, but at least I believe he truly believes in what he says, no matter how unpopular it might make him.
I have a grudging admiration of his conviction in this matter.
I have a grudging admiration of his conviction in this matter.
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These kind of attacks are taking place all over the world , they are targeting everyone, children, youngsters and elders as well, no one is escaped from them , they are killing Jews, Christians, Hindus and Muslims everyone. I don't understand what they actually want , do they want peace ? will they get peace by killing others and ruining others happy peaceful life. They are not targeting a single religion they are targeting the whole humanity, Really feeling very bad is this the world we are living into where people kills other people 
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