Lost in the post?! Customer honesty...

[OptiRick]

I have been running an online venture for a few years.
The value of items is such that it's worth sending everything recorded. I can count the number of packets which have gone missing on one hand.

Recently I took over a site selling a less valuable product and have been sending items first class. Two (of only about a dozen) items we posted in the first week have been reported as not arrived.

I'm just wondering what the findings of others are before I revert to sending everything signed for.
Are people generally honest?
Are there a sufficient number of chancers to make a signed for service essential or are they likely to be diluted to the point where the savings from not doing so will outweigh the loss from resending?

Ta for any input,
Rick

 

[Ali-v-8]

Get it signed for. Thats what i advised my client. Product is insured then.

 

[Demus]

I sell items retailing around £8 (with £1.50 flatrate P+P that costs me 75p on average). When selling a product of £8, my overheads all in probably come to £4.50 (50p Paypal and another 50p additional fee).

Resending a lost order (due to not paying additional fees) costs another £3.50+75p P+P so if ppl were to try it on, it'd cost me around £4.25 depending on order size.

Recorded costs >74p. Therefore if I save 75p/order by not doing signed for, provided someone tries to steal less frequently than 1/6 orders, I "break even" on not including recorded delivery.

This logic culd break down if the lack of recorded encouraged people to do it, thus increasing it's frequency.

I've been going for 4 years and probably had well over 1,000 orders. It's very infrequent that I have someone saying something hasn't arrived; in the last 6 months there was 1 that didn't turn up (but due to the customers phrasing I'm 100% certain it was due to my or Royal Mails error) and one where the shipping address given was supposedly not the right one.

I've sent stuff worth £30/£40 non-recorded in the past. I include a return address sticker. It's rare for RM (I would guess at the very very most 1 in 1000 and even lost things would surely be sent to a return address?) to lose things so if someone says it hasn't arrived I ask them to wait a few days and normally it's just a postal strike causing things to be late. I normally state that it has definitely been posted and should arrive by a certain date or if something has gone wrong, RM will return it to me. This probs disuades people unless it really has gone missing.

If I suspecte a problem I'd keep an eye on the addresses as if a couple of orders didn't arrive for one person, that'd be an alarm bell...but then I'd just send recorded to that person.

TL;DR my experience is that people are honest and I can't think of instance of where I was suspicious someone was trying it on. The kind of market I sell to is a lose community (a sport) where people tend to know each other, which makes it less likely as they will want to buy from me again. Weigh up the cost of of recorded v cost of replacing lost items; if you have a decent markup you'll probably be better not recording most of the time.

Also (at least some if not all) couriers available from Pharos and Interparcel require signatures on delivery. If RM is costing you £4/£5 with recorded delivery, these will quite possibly be better options as it's essentially recorded into the deal and they pick up from your house so easier than RM; all you need is a printer.

 

[xsibx]

well count the price of item lost + costs to repost and then compare it to cost of sending it recorded. Then go with the cheapest

 

[dataferret]

Send everything with a signature. It is simply not worth the hassle without one and you can use it as a sales and marketing feature so people can see how quickly you ship the orders out (and how slowly Royal Snail deliver them).

You only save pennies by sending without a signature and if the price difference is a problem then increase the price and compete on service instead.

 

[paretowasright]

Send everything with a signature. It is simply not worth the hassle without one and you can use it as a sales and marketing feature so people can see how quickly you ship the orders out (and how slowly Royal Snail deliver them).

You only save pennies by sending without a signature and if the price difference is a problem then increase the price and compete on service instead.

Unfortunately recorded delivery has its own challenges as if items are not collected within 7 days they get sent back via RM Belfast which can take 2 months. It does seem to be the cheapskates that end up trying it on but I find the best thing is to imply the parcel can be tracked and mention the Royal Mail/E-bay investigation team...that seems to make a lot of 'missing' stuff suddenly appear!

 

[Demus]

imply the parcel can be tracked and mention the Royal Mail/E-bay investigation team...that seems to make a lot of 'missing' stuff suddenly appear!

That's a good point; that there's some Royal Mail procedure for lost post. I don't think the procedure probably turns up much that has been lost but find out about it, then ask them to submit it etc so it can be investigated/tracked. Also stating "oh must have been slowed down in the post, I'm certain it'll arrive in the next 2 days" is an added deterrent.

And it means customers have to be home to sign or go out again to collect it from PO.

 

[OptiRick]

Unfortunately recorded delivery has its own challenges as if items are not collected within 7 days they get sent back via RM Belfast which can take 2 months.

I think that only happens when there is no return address on them.

I find the best thing is to imply the parcel can be tracked and mention the Royal Mail/E-bay investigation team...that seems to make a lot of 'missing' stuff suddenly appear!

That's a good idea and something we have been thinking of, making the customer think they will be busted if they are lying without implying that they are.

Thanks for everyone's input.
It's not just about the cost of postage, there is a problem with recorded in that people need to be in to sign or they end up having to collect the package from their loccal depot, which can be a hassle.

 

[paretowasright]

I think that only happens when there is no return address on them.


No unfortunately it happens frequently when it is clearly marked on the parcel and seems to be down to the whim of individual sorting offices.

 

[owas]

you could ask the cusotmer to sign a form stating that they have not recived the product, and explaine that this is to help make a claim for lost post with royal mail. Youd be surprised how many items then turn up

 

[mike.davis]

We used to send everything standard post (by taking it to the post office) and we had about 1in10 "going missing", so we switched to recorded which obviously cut it to next to nothing.

But when we started getting royal mail to collect sacks of packages, we didn't send recorded - we just had our royal mail account label on the item - this seems to put customers off claiming when it isn't actually lost, because it looks more official. We now send about 50 post items a day and only get about 1 every 3 weeks missing.

 

[Alicatt]

you could ask the cusotmer to sign a form stating that they have not recived the product, and explaine that this is to help make a claim for lost post with royal mail. Youd be surprised how many items then turn up

We do this. Recorded is simply not worth the extra expense and hassle for low value orders. If your loss rates are so high that it looks worthwhile, I would investigate to find out why. Our lost parcels rate is less than 1 in 500.

High value stuff we send special delivery or courier.

 

Been sending small items out first and second class royal mail for many years.

I can't remember the last time anything went missing.

It may be something to do with the type od product you send and your clients.?

Earl

 

[OptiRick]

The product is spectacles so the clients will be anyone and everyone.

I think part of the problem stems from the fact that they don't often fit through the letterbox then end up back in the sorting office in some sort of limbo.

 

[HTMLHugo]

generally i find less then 1 in 30/40 items disapear and im sending all around europe.

And for what its worth the coverage / insurance offered by RM is pathetic.

you have to provide reciepts etc of your items cost then the *may* refund the cost of the item. I believe they dont refund the postal costs / or the packaging costs etc.

for me the stuff i sell has a cost value of about 5/6 quid its just easier to send a new one out. Which is lazy but the numbers just dont make it worth worrying about.

 

[bjg123]

We used to just ship out new goods free of charge to customers who's items were "lost" by Royal Mail, but found we were doing so many that we needed to recoup some money, Royal Mail will give you a refund of the cost to you of the goods (we get 50% of total order value minus postage back) if the customer fills in a P91 form and sends it back. Unfortuantely they won't do this until 15 working days after despatch. We've found since enforcing this policy the number of people claiming their goods are lost has fallen dramatically, and as we offer a refund as well as a reprint, this can only be explained by people lying and trying to get a free reprint.

 

[Blagger]

Recorded delivery itself has its flaws, if you send something that will fit through the letterbox the postman will just slip it through without signature (or sign it themselves) if no one answers the door, saves them coming back to deliver again.

 

[goodsexguide]

We operate two businesses one of which is reselling through Ebay. Recently RM have started to lose 10% of our sent parcels. Value is low, but RM will only pay the amount we paid plus they want proof which is difficult as we buy from flea markets etc. As items are lost in the post we lose the swale, the postage as we have to refund, Ebay fees and its knocking our Ebay feedback ratings. Ebay say we are a poor seller and this is through the parcels going missing. We have spoken to RM customer services who are less than helpful. Value of the goods sold is low and insurance or signature on delivery is too high - any suggestions?

 

[Setfire]

Of course it depends on order value, but we found that stopping signed-for saved us money overall.

Most people are honest, and if something does not turn up, we ask people to wait a few days, then we just resend.

Effectively, we began self-insuring our deliveries, and this saved us money. As far as tracking went, we found that the signed-for service (which is tracked only at the delivery end) was unreliable since some posties don't bother with recording it.

The biggest benefit for us was not requiring someone to be in, since most of our parcels will fit through a letterbox. This stopped the annoyance of missing the delivery.

All in all, happier customers and more profit .

 

[paretowasright]

We operate two businesses one of which is reselling through Ebay. Recently RM have started to lose 10% of our sent parcels. Value is low, but RM will only pay the amount we paid plus they want proof which is difficult as we buy from flea markets etc. As items are lost in the post we lose the swale, the postage as we have to refund, Ebay fees and its knocking our Ebay feedback ratings. Ebay say we are a poor seller and this is through the parcels going missing. We have spoken to RM customer services who are less than helpful. Value of the goods sold is low and insurance or signature on delivery is too high - any suggestions?

There must be some other circumstance here to have such a high loss rate.
I can only think it must be the returns address (making it very obvious and tempting as to the contents?) or a big problem with the local sorting office you use?

I would also always get any buyers on ebay to raise a missing item claim that way e-bay can spot the frequent offenders.

 

[A Party Shop]

This is something we've also been considering. Up until now we've always used Recorded Delivery for non-urgent orders valued at less than £20 trade cost but we're going to be trialling basic 1st class post over the next couple of months.

My main fear is if it is sent 1st Class non-recorded and it's 'bigger than letterbox' size, there may be more chance of it going missing.

 

[Naughty Vend]

We send out say ten 'large letter' Jiffy bags a day, about 80% are from Ebay orders and this is split between UK second class post and international airmail.

The majority arrives safely and in the last month only one has been reported as not received, I don't resend I refund because in my case that's a cheaper option and then inform the client that whilst we are sorry this has been lost in the post that it was sent and please feel free to re-order. We flag that buyer and send anything to them recorded thereafter, because if they are telling Porkies to get it free via PayPal then its covered... this is calculated exposure and strangely or not items purchased and not paid via PayPal (so far) have all arrived safely. I'm not going to be prejudice but I'll be prepared... You'll find more goes missing in December as temporary posties come onto the streets so if you can then do not make your package look like something worth opening, think like they would, a nice fat or well wrapped pack is going to get opened... the sealable plastic pouches stop quite a bit of theft.

When we start getting up to the level that the item is a single order of greater value we send by next day courier, it costs about the same and is a more professional appearance and that covers the signature issue regardless. Only you as a retailer know where that line is for you but as a general rule of thumb 'no signature' works if you are prepared to average the loss due potential dishonesty and actual lost packages.

 

[allsquare]

Anyone got a copy of the word document that play.com send out for a missing/not received order?

Would like to have a look at the wording they use, as apparently it'd be a useful addition to our current procedure.

 

[BankruptStockBargainsUK]

I send everything signed for. Go for the cheaper option and send it all 2nd class recorded to save a few quid. There are a lot of buyers who will say the item didn't arrive when its not signed for. Especially on eBay. If you do send it standard post ask for a certificate of postage so that you at least have some proof it was sent!

 

[ScottNelson&Co]

Anyone got a copy of the word document that play.com send out for a missing/not received order?

Would like to have a look at the wording they use, as apparently it'd be a useful addition to our current procedure.

this sounds very interesting. I would like to see this also.

 

[goodsexguide]

We have used both IE Signed for and not signed. The amount of claims dropped 90% when we started to send as signed for

 

[TotalWebSolutions]

Anyone got a copy of the word document that play.com send out for a missing/not received order?

Would like to have a look at the wording they use, as apparently it'd be a useful addition to our current procedure.

Just so happens I do as I had a problem recently. Completed the below form on 12/11/2010 and got an email yesterday to say replacement was on its way

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are sorry to hear you have not received your Play.com order for :

Red Dead Redemption (with Limited Edition Bonus Content)

In order for us to issue you with a replacement / refund (please delete as appropriate) we require a signed confirmation from you so that an official Royal Mail investigation can take place. Details of your missing item will be sent to Royal Mail as part of our ongoing efforts to ensure that our customers receive the items dispatched to them.

In order to confirm that you have not received the above item please sign this letter below and return it to us at the following address:

Play.com Claims Dept.
PO Box 1159
FREEPOST
BELFAST
BT1 9HG

We aim to review all claims within 3 working days from receipt. Please notify us immediately should the item arrive before you have returned this declaration. Once your claim has been approved we will issue you with a replacement and send a confirmation email.

Kind regards,

Play.comDeclarationThe details requested below do NOT refer to any replacement that may have been sent to you since the original was reported missing.
Has the order been received yet ? YES / NO . If YES, what date ___/___/___

I ********** confirm that the above item has not been received at the delivery address listed. I will contact Play.com immediately should the original item arrive and understand that failure to do so will result in a charge for the replacement.SignaturePrint nameDate

 

[paretowasright]

Also add that they have checked with both neighbours and the local sorting office to the criteria. Amazing how many suddenly appear from a 'neighbour' when they see that!

 

[Deleted member 74679]

It's worth anyway asking the customer to check whether the item is at the local sorting office. My postmaster told me that frequently posties forget to put the card through the door when they take items back to the sorting office. I've sent about 300 items second class since starting my business and only 2 have gone missing (so back to the OP - recorded is not worth it for me). Both of these items were waiting at the customers' local sorting offices.

 

[lmartin87]

I ********** confirm that the above item has not been received at the delivery address listed. I will contact Play.com immediately should the original item arrive and understand that failure to do so will result in a charge for the replacement.SignaturePrint nameDate

How do they work that then?

 

[Sky Racer]

Interesting split of do/dont send recorded. Personally I'll send an item via recorded delivery if it's been paid for by Paypal as people a re to quick to file a claim nowadays and Paypal simply take the buyers side everytime.

As the seller you lose out on the item cost, the cost of packing materials and the time spent processing the order then of course ebay fees / paypal fees etc..

For the sake of 75p it saves a lot of greif. Putting tracking info on the paypal transaction / ebay order page notes generally stops any false claims.

On the odd occasion I am sending out an item only worth a few pounds then I'll use royal mail first class standard post and put a return address on the parcel and get a proof of posting. The proof of posting does not stop paypal / ebay as far as a claim goes but it can at least prove you did send it.

if something is more than about 700grams in weight then its worth using myhermes courier. its tracked door to door and only costs £2.75 plus vat for under 1kg packages.

 

[Sky Racer]

Ment to add that if an order is paid for by debit/credit card then its very rare anyone tries it on with a claim for item not received. Its one of the reasons we offer free delivery when orders are placed direct from our website and payment made by card.

 

[kulture]

It is an interesting split. I have not read all the posts but I did pick up a couple of points.

1 There is no additional insurance on recorded delivery. It is the same as 1st/2nd class in this.

2 The RM do not actually guarantee to get a signature on recorded delivery. And do not in many cases.

3 You are much more likely to get the goods returned as un called for as they are only held a week. (after using recorded for a year and then switching back to plain 1st class I can say this with certainty).

4 The number of "lost" claims is only slightly lower for recorded (at least for my goods av value £14)

I have started to use royal mail tracked, which tracks a parcel throughout the network up to delivery. No signature is required. Interestingly the number of non receipt claims went up because people got goods without a signature and assumed that the delivery was thus not tracked. Naturally they all suddenly found the parcels when the delivery place and time was sent back to them.

Since in my experience not all recorded delivery items are signed for, this actually INCREASES the chance of a customer trying it on when they get such a parcel. This especially happens over christmas when the postman is in a rush.

So for me, I will never use recorded.

 

[deniser]

We always use signed for for international parcels having had problems when we didn't. We haven't had a missing international parcel at all since we started using signed for.

For domestic parcels we use recorded for everything that won't fit through a letterbox. Our loss rate is about 1 in 1000. It's not just the fact that the loss rate is considerably less, it's the fact that when customers ring up to find out where their parcel is, you can give them a tracking number which always calms them down if they are anxious. Without a number to give them they can get even more agitated as they don't understand how long the delays can be with RM. The 75p charge is incorporated within our fixed postage charge so is paid for by the customer in any case.

As for "missing" parcels 90% of the time these are sitting at the sorting office but the customer hasn't received a card or in 10% of cases the parcel has been delivered at the neighbour with the neighbour assuming the addressee has received a card and will come to collect it. All of these can easily be traced if you have a tracking number and it makes for better customer service and satisfaction.

For anything that has a low order value of say less than £15, and will fit through the letterbox, we send it by 1st class and touch wood, have never had one of these go missing.

We tend to self insure on high value items so don't use special delivery (unless they need it next day) on the basis that we will cover the cost of the in 1000 that goes missing and that it is not worthwhile paying the extra when you can only recover the wholesale price of the goods anyway and claiming is such a hassle that it makes no sense timewise.

If we do get a missing parcel, we do the same as Play.com and send the customer a declaration to sign which says they have not received the item and that if it turns up they will return it to us and that they will assist in the event that we pursue a claim with RM. We then refund them or send them a replacement, whatever they prefer. Quite often the missing parcel will be returned to us weeks later either by RM or the customer. They are very rarely lost for ever.

 

[Debby1]

Hi,
Just been looking at your replies, threads etc. Im trying to get hold of a copy or how do I download the Royal Mail claim form P91. Ive tried rnging Royal Mail but just keep getting redirected then cut off.
Ive had a few parcels go "missing" lately and want to try and send these out to make sure my claims are genuine.
Thanks any help much appreciated.

 

[Sky Racer]

Had a case of a 'missing item' this week and I knew the buyer was trying it on so I sent a lost item declaration / claim form just the same as Play . com send out and gues what.. I got an email to let me know 'The item has now arrived, thanks' ...hmmm

 

[Angels Avenue]

I was just wondering ...

Is it possible to contact a customer, who claims they haven't received their unrecorded order and tell them ' Here is your 'proof of posting, we dispatched it promptly, if you haven't received it contact Royal Mail and make your own claim.'

I'm guessing the answer is 'No' :redface:, I'm aware that regulations are in favour of customers and not sellers but because I've had a few claims recently I am starting to get a bit annoyed and thinking 'Do I really have to refund them?'. I can prove it's been sent, is it my responsibility if it's been lost? Why can't the customer make a claim from Royal Mail?

 

[silvermusic]

I was just wondering ...

Is it possible to contact a customer, who claims they haven't received their unrecorded order and tell them ' Here is your 'proof of posting, we dispatched it promptly, if you haven't received it contact Royal Mail and make your own claim.'

I'm guessing the answer is 'No' :redface:, I'm aware that regulations are in favour of customers and not sellers but because I've had a few claims recently I am starting to get a bit annoyed and thinking 'Do I really have to refund them?'. I can prove it's been sent, is it my responsibility if it's been lost? Why can't the customer make a claim from Royal Mail?

The contract is between you and Royal Mail and not your customers concern. If they tell you they haven't recieved an item, it's down to you to refund/replace and chase Royal Mail for any redress. sending packages Recorded or Special delivery is for your benefit.