Logo Copyright?

[DJE]

Happy for this to be moved to the relevant section if it doesn't belong here.

I have a friend who is now the largest semi permanent make up (SPMU) artist in Southampton after quitting her well paid job in the city. She was only doing SPMU part time and put up a Facebook post regarding a business name and I convinced her to use her own name as it's more personal and brandable. I came up with a concept in a free app really quickly and she loved it. She has ran with it and I've spent ages trying to get her to change it to something a little more unique but she refused haha. I have continued to do all her branding since even though I am not a designer.
The logo is white swirly script writing of her name with a black background.
She is now unquestionably the No1 SPMU artist in Southampton and therefore her logo and name is very well known on social media etc. She has had her design copied 4 times now but usually they are just very similar but this last time is an exact copy in every way just with a different name.
She has reached out to her and the girl has basically said tough luck you don't own black background or white swirly font. My argument would be that McDonald's don't own the colour red and yellow or the letter M but when arranged in a specific way it makes it unique.
She has admitted in a message to my friend that she liked the design so used it.
If it was a different industry then it wouldn't be of any great concern but it's in direct competition. These new girls run 50% offers and then my friend has people asking her to book in for the deal. So there is a real issue of these copycats taking money away from my friend.

Would love to know where she stands legally? From what I have researched the logo needs to have a unique artistic concept to be consider for trademark but seems a little unfair.
Due to my friends business becoming so large and well known it's become the norm for people to use white on black font and use their own name. Before her all the other people had generic salon type names.

Sorry for the long post, wasn't my intention. Guess I'm not too good at getting to the point quickly.

Happy to PM anyone the logos if you to see for yourself the similarities.

 

[JamieM]

Sorry but I don't think she has any case as the other girls have a different name so there is a clear differentiation. The logo is arguably just a font. (I've had a look at it)

Perhaps she should consider creating a stronger protectable brand.

 

[DJE]

I have tried convincing her but it's so well known and she loves it and doesn't want to change. I created a much better logo but she's not agreeing.

I know it's only a font but surely there must be some protection. It's not like it's a generic arial font or something

 

[JamieM]

I know it's only a font but surely there must be some protection. It's not like it's a generic arial font or something

In my opinion the only protection is against anyone using it in exactly the same way. i.e. with the same name. Even if her logo was a registered trademark.

 

[DJE]

Now I know many larger companies commission custom fonts but some other do use generic fonts.
I know sky has a custom font more than likely but let's just say they didn't and a new to company use the exact colours and font but in a different name. Would that be ok?

 

[JamieM]

I would say there wouldn't be any issue if it wasn't a custom font.

Is this one a custom font that you created?

 

[DJE]

It's not a custom font. It is a generic font that anyone can use but it's the arrangement of it all not the specific font. If they used that writing but on a teal background or something then although it still would be 100% ok at least they have made it different. This is just an outright copy

 

[JamieM]

Okay so if it's the layout and not the specific font then you don't think any other SPMU can have a logo with their name in a generic font and 'semi permanent make up' written underneath?

Sorry but there is nothing protectable about this except the exact logo.

 

[TotalWebSolutions]

I was curious to see the similarity of the two logos. I've searched online for 'semi permanent makeup Southampton' and whilst it brings up quite a few different results I cannot find the two in question?

 

[Xtm_Mike]

also interested to see the logos

 

[DJE]

Okay so if it's the layout and not the specific font then you don't think any other SPMU can have a logo with their name in a generic font and 'semi permanent make up' written underneath?

Sorry but there is nothing protectable about this except the exact logo.

Think you missed the point Jamie. Of course if people are using different fonts that are freely available of course that is acceptable but when the exact font is used it makes a difference.

I will get the pic hosted now and pm the pic to everyone

 

[ethical PR]

Has your friend looked into 'passing off'?

 

[DJE]

Has your friend looked into 'passing off'?

What is that?

 

[TotalWebSolutions]

Personally, if I was her and the business was successful as you say, I would just invest in a unique protected logo and communicate it to all her clients " we have a shiny new logo - hope you like it " as that would solve the problem and maybe even generate new business or repeat business if twinned with an offer ?

 

[DontAsk]

Of course if people are using different fonts that are freely available of course that is acceptable but when the exact font is used it makes a difference.

How? If the font is freely available then anyone can use it. If both had used Times Roman you would not be having this argument. Any other freely available font is just the same.

You example of Macdonalds is totally different. Their M logo is obviously stylised and protected.

 

[JamieM]

Think you missed the point Jamie. Of course if people are using different fonts that are freely available of course that is acceptable but when the exact font is used it makes a difference.

I will get the pic hosted now and pm the pic to everyone

I was just responding to your comment:

but it's the arrangement of it all not the specific font.

So it is the specific font? And the layout?

When the font is used for a completely different business name then you are essentially looking to stop other people using the font. How can you do that when you don't own the font? There is no design element other than the font so I don't see how it can possibly be protectable.

 

[DJE]

If that is the case then fair enough but what I will say is this isn't a boring generic font like arial, Helvetia or times roman etc this is a fancy script font. It's very noticeable.

I think she may need to get a very similar design done by a calligrapher which would then fall in the category of artistic design.

Once this is done would she be able to stop anyone creating similar designs?

 

[JamieM]

I'd say that protecting a custom font might be quite difficult unless it is truly unique in the eyes of a general observer.

She would be better to design a logo that can be registered as a trademark. If she isn't overjoyed with the new one you created maybe you can try showing her a few different concepts.

Just to say, I understand why you and your friend feel the way you do. It is annoying but my comments are from a legal perspective and what can or can't be done about it.

 

[DontAsk]

Its her name, in black and white.

You say her name is very well known.

How is a less well known competitor called, say, Morag, to be accused of passing herself off as Shiela, for example. Maybe if the competitor were Scottish and called Sheilagh...

Time to move on and concentrate on providing a good service...

 

[TotalWebSolutions]

Its her name, in black and white.

You say her name is very well known.

How is a less well known competitor called, say, Morag, to be accused of passing herself off as Shiela, for example. Maybe if the competitor were Scottish and called Sheilagh...

Time to move on and concentrate on providing a good service...

The OP has suggested it could be affecting the business as the competitior is using the logo as a blatant means of attracting business. Perhaps if both are posting adverts on Facebook and a client is tricked in to looking at the competitor due to the similarity?

 

[Xtm_Mike]

With that particular word mark I don't think you would have much of a case... It really is just a white font on black background. The font is free to use, anybody can use it.

I agree it's a clear copy but it could also be a coincidence, the layout is not unique either.. title with sub slogan is fairly standard... I've seen very similar logos, a fancy curly font in the hair, style and beauty industry isn't unusual.

It's a shame but i'd be focusing my efforts on improving her brand with something unique rather than chase somebody over font usage.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

The original Log is automatically copyrighted and can be protected by their laws. If the other person copies it in a way that makes people think they are the same company then passing off laws exist for that purpose

Go to a solicitor for a thirty min free consultation and see what they say they can do, Write a letter to the other person requesting they stop using your copyrighted logo as you consider they are passing off using near identical logo's made with the intention of confusing the public

 

[japancool]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off

The question is, would a moron in a hurry mistake the other girl for your friend?

 

[Xtm_Mike]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off

The question is, would a moron in a hurry mistake the other girl for your friend?

Based on the logo's i'd say yes, apart from the fact the logo contains 2 completely different names, it may be possible if not paying attention.

That being said, there is absolutely nothing unique in the logo, it's just a black image with a white font, i'm not sure it's worth the effort.

I don't know much about copyright laws, i'd be interested to know how much protection you have when using something that you technically did not create such as the font.

Would I be able to create a text mark with Times New Roman in white on a black background and cry copyright every time somebody in the same industry done something similar?

 

[DJE]

Its her name, in black and white.

You say her name is very well known.

How is a less well known competitor called, say, Morag, to be accused of passing herself off as Shiela, for example. Maybe if the competitor were Scottish and called Sheilagh...

Time to move on and concentrate on providing a good service...

A bit harsh really. She is the main SPMU artist for a reason, because she provides the best service and is exceptional at her work.
But when she has built up her client base it seems unfair to have her own clients message her asking to take her up on the deal she is offering. Of course she knows nothing about these deals because she doesn't ever have deals and it's just copycats piggybacking off her success. They see what she has and want a piece of the pie.

If someone from Manchester for example done it, it would not be an issue but this is somebody 5 minutes drive away. There intention is to get business from the back of misconfusion.

I forgot to mention she also had screenshot proof from her clients of the girl sending messages to them saying she is currently running offers. And also messages to my friend admitting she done the design because she liked my friends logo.

 

[DJE]

The original Log is automatically copyrighted and can be protected by their laws. If the other person copies it in a way that makes people think they are the same company then passing off laws exist for that purpose

Go to a solicitor for a thirty min free consultation and see what they say they can do, Write a letter to the other person requesting they stop using your copyrighted logo as you consider they are passing off using near identical logo's made with the intention of confusing the public

I thought there must be something like this because it seems completely wrong that someone can just pass off as someon else without any issues.

 

[japancool]

This is the point where you need the services of a solicitor.

 

[DavidWH]

Would it not be like someone using a logo with a town name, and just changing the name of the town?

Joe public could think they are a branch of the same company, or part of a franchise.

Speak to a solicitor, if they do send a letter that should do the trick.