Liability

[Rossm79]

Hi All,

We had some building work carried out in May 2018. We escalated an issue with it in 2019 and it was repaired. The issue has come back due to poor workmanship and when I escalated to them they said the business had shut down in March 2020 so they weren’t going to do anything about it.

The company at the time as called:
“ Cowboy Builders”. The new company is called “Cowboy Builders Ltd” and they are using the same VAT number as the old company which was apparently a non-limited company.

Do we have any ground to stand on if the old company has been shut down?

 

[Scalloway]

the old company which was apparently a non-limited company.

If it was a sole trader or partnership liability will rest with the owner(s).

 

[Rossm79]

Thanks Scalloway, if those owners are saying the company has shut down, is there a way to find out that this is the case?

Also the new company is using the same VAT number as the old company. Are they allowed to do that??

Thanks

Ross

 

[Scalloway]

It sounds to me that they have sold the business to their limited company. It is very common for an unincorporated business to keep the same VAT number when it goes limited, in fact it is part of the rules to stop a new business being formed to avoid VAT.

As I said earlier unless the previous business was a limited company the owners are liable for anything incurred before incorporation. If it was a partnership there is no easy means to see when it was closed down.

The partners are liable in full for anything they did before the limited company was formed, regardless of whether the business still exists or not.

You need to pursue the individual partners.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Look up at companies house the date they formed the limited company it may well be after they did your work. if so then make sure you only address the people as "fred blggs trading as xxxxx" and make no reference to the ltd company

 

[Rossm79]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies! This has been extremely helpful and a lot more help than I have been able to get from Citizen’s Advice and Trading Standards ( no offence to either as I’m sure some of this info isn’t their area). Our court paper work refers to “Cowboy Builders” and not the Ltd company name. The VAT number referred to the two owners individually. Worse case if I have to re-sue I will, however I’m hoping a strongly worded letter and our mediation date will force their hand!

I really can’t thank you enough! I will lurk around the IT area as that is my speciality to see if I can help anyone there. I don’t want to join this forum to get the info I need and leave.

Again many, many thanks!

Ross

 

[KAC]

If the debt is more than £600, have a word with @Big G who is an HCEO and will be able to advise you on how to collect. Good luck

 

[MOIC]

Are/were they part of the National Builders Federation (NFB)? If so, contact them and see if they can help you.

Were there any terms within the contract regarding warranty?

Get a consultation with a competent solicitor, if it warrants it.

 

[Rossm79]

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies. Our builder isn't a member of the NFB unfortunately. However we did have a JCT building contract, so will read through that again about warranties.

I'm going to send a letter to them again stating that i am going to purse the costs against him personally. My Small Court Claim is in the name of Ross Martin Vs Cowboy Builders which was the name on our invoices at the time. I assume i need to change that or do a new claim in the name of Ross Martin Vs Fred Blogs for example. I don't want to continue this claim and lose on a technicality. I'd rather get it right from the outset. Only £200 to do another claim and we are suing for £4800!

Thanks

Ross

 

[IanSuth]

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies. Our builder isn't a member of the NFB unfortunately. However we did have a JCT building contract, so will read through that again about warranties.

I'm going to send a letter to them again stating that i am going to purse the costs against him personally. My Small Court Claim is in the name of Ross Martin Vs Cowboy Builders which was the name on our invoices at the time. I assume i need to change that or do a new claim in the name of Ross Martin Vs Fred Blogs for example. I don't want to continue this claim and lose on a technicality. I'd rather get it right from the outset. Only £200 to do another claim and we are suing for £4800!

Thanks

Ross

Get proper advice but I dont think you need to change anything - if he was acting as a sole trader at the time the for all intents and purposes Cowboy Builders WAS Fred Blogs - there was no "company" to shut down, that is just his words to you. What he appears (from the info you gave) to have done is realise the liabilities he was open to and so started Cowboy Builders Ltd to "limit" his liabilities. As long as you contract was before that date what he did with the LTD is irrelevant, you had a contract with Fred Blogs who was trading as Cowboy Builder and so you pursue him/cowboy builder as one and same entity

I am sure one of the specialists in this area will be on here in a minute to give a fuller answer, so I wouldnt do anything until you have their informed advice

 

[Big G]

@Rossm79

One of the other members has tagged us in to this. We have just read through and it does sound as though it was a sole trading company at the time that you entered in to contract with them and the individuals are therefore liable.

As your legal proceedings appear to be in the non limited company name you will have to make a decision to change that or issue a fresh claim. Cowboy builders (for example) does not exist as legal trading entity. It is either Cowboy Builders Ltd or Mr Cowboy trading as Cowboy builders. That is how the claim should be issued as you will struggle to enforce against Cowboy builders.

You can either issue a fresh claim or you can make an application to the Court to amend the Defendants name on the claim. You will likely have to re-serve the claim if this is done.

If you would like any help please do not hesitate to contact us on here or via our website. We will be happy to help.

Good luck!

 

[Rossm79]

@Rossm79

One of the other members has tagged us in to this. We have just read through and it does sound as though it was a sole trading company at the time that you entered in to contract with them and the individuals are therefore liable.

As your legal proceedings appear to be in the non limited company name you will have to make a decision to change that or issue a fresh claim. Cowboy builders (for example) does not exist as legal trading entity. It is either Cowboy Builders Ltd or Mr Cowboy trading as Cowboy builders. That is how the claim should be issued as you will struggle to enforce against Cowboy builders.

You can either issue a fresh claim or you can make an application to the Court to amend the Defendants name on the claim. You will likely have to re-serve the claim if this is done.

If you would like any help please do not hesitate to contact us on here or via our website. We will be happy to help.

Good luck!

Hi Big G,

Many thanks fore the response. I had made a note to contact you this afternoon!

I would defiantly like some help if possible. I'm happy with the evidence we have, photos, five quotes by other companies to repair the patio, an email from the manufacturer stating the original pointing product was installed incorrectly. With these i believe we can demonstrate under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 that "reasonable care and skill" was not taken. They have had the opportunity to repair and they have taken it but they bodged they repair with cement and now that is failing.

My concern is losing the case on a technicality of suing the wrong name for example. Is that something you can help me with?

Many Thanks

Ross

 

[Big G]

Hi Big G,

Many thanks fore the response. I had made a note to contact you this afternoon!

I would defiantly like some help if possible. I'm happy with the evidence we have, photos, five quotes by other companies to repair the patio, an email from the manufacturer stating the original pointing product was installed incorrectly. With these i believe we can demonstrate under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 that "reasonable care and skill" was not taken. They have had the opportunity to repair and they have taken it but they bodged they repair with cement and now that is failing.

My concern is losing the case on a technicality of suing the wrong name for example. Is that something you can help me with?

Many Thanks

Ross

Hi Ross,

Yes absolutely we can help you with this.

What we will need to have a look at to establish the exact correct Defendants is copies of the initial correspondence, any contracts, payment details. Once we have this we should be able to establish exactly who you should be targeting your claim at.

Regards
Nick

 

[Rossm79]

Thanks Nick,

Am i ok to Private Message you? I have just found something that might answer it all!

 

[Big G]

Of course you are.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

Sounds to me like they are trying it on. If they were a partnership, or sole traders then the debt lies with them personally and it doesn't matter if they have ceased trading. Best of luck with your CCJ.

Here is the link:

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome