Legalise building and selling computers

[businessowner350]

Hi Everyone,

Not many may know this, but building and selling computers to customers in the UK is virtually impossible - at least legally. I've created an "idea" on Nick Clegg's "Your Freedom" site with more details:

http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/cutti...tions/legalise-building-and-selling-computers

I encourage all small business owners to vote highly for this idea, as it is not fair that the big players (HP, IBM etc..) are the only ones who can afford to legally build and sell computers/servers!

Thanks

 

[Subbynet]

Sorry, I can't really support your plan.

The CE mark is important for knowing you've purchased quality goods, and not something designed up in the back streets of China.

Likewise the WEEE regs are a bit of a PITA, but I found you could use it to your advantage.

I don't understand why you feel an EMC tests are required, but it would be if you stop using CE certified parts. You don't CE certify the whole computer.

I feel repelling these regulations will do nothing to help you in your battle against the big players, as you will just lower their barriers to market too.

 

[businessowner350]

Sorry, I can't really support your plan.

The CE mark is important for knowing you've purchased quality goods, and not something designed up in the back streets of China.

Likewise the WEEE regs are a bit of a PITA, but I found you could use it to your advantage.

I don't understand why you feel an EMC tests are required, but it would be if you stop using CE certified parts. You don't CE certify the whole computer.

I feel repelling these regulations will do nothing to help you in your battle against the big players, as you will just lower their barriers to market too.

Subbynet, what you say about not having to certify the whole computer is a common misconception. It is indeed law that you do have to certify the whole computer (even if all parts of CE marked). Please see here:
http://www.tcauk.org/home/TradeInformation/CE%20Marking.shtml

So while I agree with you that CE mark is important for all the components (Motherboard, RAM etc..), it is outrageous that we are supposed to create documentation, and EMC test every varient of a computer - even if you change the keyboard!! (Legally speaking)

I don't understand why you say WEEE can be used to your advantage?

My company may only build <10 custom units a year, and a £600 charge for a compliance scheme, plus £500 to test each unit (each are different) in a EMC test lab. Consider the margin on each unit is £50, I make that aproxx £5,000 loss a year, if I were to remain 100% compliant.

 

[Subbynet]

Subbynet, what you say about not having to certify the whole computer is a common misconception. It is indeed law that you do have to certify the whole computer (even if all parts of CE marked). Please see here:
http://www.tcauk.org/home/TradeInformation/CE%20Marking.shtml

So while I agree with you that CE mark is important for all the components (Motherboard, RAM etc..), it is outrageous that we are supposed to create documentation, and EMC test every varient of a computer - even if you change the keyboard!! (Legally speaking)

I'll have to backtrack and say after reading the law indeed you're correct. Although, you are not required to have it tested by a specialist. You are allowed to self-certify the systems you create, but, you'll also be liable for the results. That might come back to bite you in the back side one day, but if you're selling only a few units, its unlikely.

From the DTI.

“When self certifying, the manufacturer takes responsibility for his products’ performance. He must be confident that his products meet the essential requirements of the EMC Directive and is responsible for deciding what measures are necessary to achieve this. If he decides to conduct minimal tests, or none at all, he must assess the risk of so doing and be prepared to justify his action to the enforcement authority in demonstrating compliance, if so requested”.

I don't understand why you say WEEE can be used to your advantage?

Before WEEE, many companies would depose of their old IT systems (by some method or other - sometimes with a big skip and a hammer), but you could now factor in the end-of-life costs and disposal services and offer this to the client. I subbed this out to a 3rd party who done the leg work, and I made a few quid in the process - not a lot mind you.

 

[businessowner350]

I'll have to backtrack and say after reading the law indeed you're correct. Although, you are not required to have it tested by a specialist. You are allowed to self-certify the systems you create, but, you'll also be liable for the results. That might come back to bite you in the back side one day, but if you're selling only a few units, its unlikely.

Agreed. You don't have to have it tested by a specilist. However the law does say that you must be confident that it's compliant, and you must place the sticker on the system, as well as keep documentation. Also, it is an offence to place a sticker on a system which you know is not compliant. The thing I'd be worried about is how do I justify that it's compliant with the EMC directives? I don't think "I just have a feeling" will do...

Before WEEE, many companies would depose of their old IT systems (by some method or other - sometimes with a big skip and a hammer), but you could now factor in the end-of-life costs and disposal services and offer this to the client. I subbed this out to a 3rd party who done the leg work, and I made a few quid in the process - not a lot mind you.

I see where you are coming from, however I'm not really "in" the hardware business. I make most of my money selling support and maintenace services. I would only build a few custom unit when ones that are on offer to buy won't do. An example of this is a custom rack-mount firewall. Since I'll only be making maybe <10 systems a year, it doesn't really make sense for me to pay £600/year to a Producer compliance scheme...

By the way, I'm not suggesting that we get rid of CE marking altogether, just for the actual assembly. Also, it would be nice to place a minimum weight before WEEE applies.

 

[businessowner350]

Also, see here for a good discussion on the topic:

http://www.pcr-online.biz/news/32634/Many-system-builders-do-not-conform-to-EU-laws

Basically, all of us who building and sell computers, are criminals

 

[Subbynet]

Agreed. You don't have to have it tested by a specilist. However the law does say that you must be confident that it's compliant, and you must place the sticker on the system, as well as keep documentation. Also, it is an offence to place a sticker on a system which you know is not compliant. The thing I'd be worried about is how do I justify that it's compliant with the EMC directives? I don't think "I just have a feeling" will do...

Granted... If you were just producing computers for home use, the chances of anything bad occurring is unlikely (and I mean that in a legal sense, not just electrical), but you say below that you might make a rack mounted firewall, and well, now you're no doubt offering your products to other companies, and your equipment will be running alongside their important IT operations. Down time is not an option.

The chances I feel are still very slim of anything happening, in all my time building computers/servers I can't remember having had an issue, but its that chance of causing a company to stop work, because your product is not perfect. The cost of this could be very high indeed for a small business.

I would perhaps find out what it would take to properly self-certify these systems from a legal angle. I personally am qualified to PAT test, which was a service we would sometimes call in on behalf of our clients, but it was easy enough to learn with just 3 days at a college. EMC testing sounds a bit harder and more expensive to implement, but I'd try find out if I was you, in the long run you will be better off - and it might grow into a service you can offer to other small IT companies.

I see where you are coming from, however I'm not really "in" the hardware business. I make most of my money selling support and maintenace services. I would only build a few custom unit when ones that are on offer to buy won't do. An example of this is a custom rack-mount firewall. Since I'll only be making maybe <10 systems a year, it doesn't really make sense for me to pay £600/year to a Producer compliance scheme...

Hard one really... You do seem to be hit by the regulations much more than I was.

I can only really refer to you someone who I hope can help you. I'd give Valpak a call - http://www.valpak.co.uk

 

[businessowner350]

I've been in touch with Valpack - this is where i got the £600/year from!

Also, I've done extensive reading on EMC testing/self certification. It is totally different from PAT testing (which you are correct, is fairly easy to do with 3 days of training). EMC testing is impossible without a professional lab, which costs about £1000/day to hire out.

I'm not concerned about "downtime" regarding the topic in hand. The reliability of a system is not related to CE compliance. If you ask me, an HP system is just as likely to fail as a non-compliant (legally speaking) system built by a local store (Provided they have used decent quality parts from well known manufacturers)

When you built computers/servers for people, what did you do to ensure that your systems were CE compliant? I would put money down that apart from the regular PAT testing, you probably did nothing. This isn't a dig at you, it's just what reality is in this industry, and we need to work together to get the law changed, or at least get noticed by contacting people who represent us (I'm a member of the FSB, for example).

I just don't want to be label a criminal for doing something innocient that I love doing.

The only real way to remain CE compliant while building computer, is to use a combination of parts that someone else has done the testing for you. For example, Intel in their documents say they have testing a respective motherboard with a certain case and RAM. However even then, they probably didn't include a hard drive, so that point is nearly moot.

 

[Subbynet]

I've been in touch with Valpack - this is where i got the £600/year from!

Wow I remember it being a fair bit cheaper than that!

Also, I've done extensive reading on EMC testing/self certification. It is totally different from PAT testing (which you are correct, is fairly easy to do with 3 days of training). EMC testing is impossible without a professional lab, which costs about £1000/day to hire out.

What about products like from Laplace? Have you researched the cost of such equipment?

http://www.laplace.co.uk/products/

All our products are specifically designed to meet the stringent requirements of EMC testing. However, Laplace equipment is particularly relevant to those such as manufacturers who lack the resources to enable them to build formal test sites, and must cope with noisy and restricted facilities. Our systems uniquely include features that enable these issues to be addressed.

I'm not concerned about "downtime" regarding the topic in hand. The reliability of a system is not related to CE compliance. If you ask me, an HP system is just as likely to fail as a non-compliant (legally speaking) system built by a local store (Provided they have used decent quality parts from well known manufacturers)

Sorry, by downtime I meant introducing a system which will interfere with the existing equipment - and this causing downtime. Trust me, any company isn't going to worry about the cost of the faulty IT equipment, but the downtime cost to the company, which can be much greater. You'll be liable for this because you sold them uncertified equipment.

When you built computers/servers for people, what did you do to ensure that your systems were CE compliant? I would put money down that apart from the regular PAT testing, you probably did nothing. This isn't a dig at you, it's just what reality is in this industry, and we need to work together to get the law changed, or at least get noticed by contacting people who represent us (I'm a member of the FSB, for example).

I just don't want to be label a criminal for doing something innocient that I love doing.

I "Self-Certified" , which according to the law I am allowed to do. So you won't be labelled a criminal for it.

But, saying that, I rarely had to build anything for companies, I used a branded retailer in virtually all cases, with the main exceptions being home users who wanted something more - or a business wanting as much as it could for very little money.

There is a huge difference between building a single (or few) machines which fall short of the regulations, and someone like Dell selling thousands of units - which could cause mass disruption should they be faulty.

 

[businessowner350]

Sorry, by downtime I meant introducing a system which will interfere with the existing equipment - and this causing downtime. Trust me, any company isn't going to worry about the cost of the faulty IT equipment, but the downtime cost to the company, which can be much greater. You'll be liable for this because you sold them uncertified equipment.

I presume you are talking about bad emmisions? I don't feel that this is an issue. Computer components are very reliable these days (Again, from good manufacturers), and if any problems arise, then they are usually spotted within the first couple of days. In any case, this issue is not really just relavent to custom made PCs. "Big Brand" PCs have the potential to cause problems. I have an Apple Mac Mini, which causes my Acer monitor to buzz. And in any case, it is part of CE regulations for products to accept interferance and continute to still work. So the other systems that fail that wern't supplied by me could be classed as non-CE compliant.

I "Self-Certified" , which according to the law I am allowed to do. So you won't be labelled a criminal for it.

What tests do you run? If you run none, and have no justification for sticking the CE mark, and something goes wrong, then that is just as bad (or maybe even worse) as not marking at all - a criminal offence in the eyes of the law. The key here is having justification for placing the mark in the first place. As previously mentioned, the law doesn't require you to test, but it does require you to have justification for why the system is CE compliant.

There is a huge difference between building a single (or few) machines which fall short of the regulations, and someone like Dell selling thousands of units - which could cause mass disruption should they be faulty.

This is not what the law sees. You are classed as exactly the same if you build one pc or thousands!

 

[Subbynet]

I presume you are talking about bad emmisions? I don't feel that this is an issue. Computer components are very reliable these days (Again, from good manufacturers), and if any problems arise, then they are usually spotted within the first couple of days. In any case, this issue is not really just relavent to custom made PCs. "Big Brand" PCs have the potential to cause problems. I have an Apple Mac Mini, which causes my Acer monitor to buzz. And in any case, it is part of CE regulations for products to accept interferance and continute to still work. So the other systems that fail that wern't supplied by me could be classed as non-CE compliant.

I agree. So what is the problem? Your making a small number of systems, and your exposure to risk is hopefully small - so long as you stay away from hospitals and other high-risk categories of IT usage.

What tests do you run? If you run none, and have no justification for sticking the CE mark, and something goes wrong, then that is just as bad (or maybe even worse) as not marking at all - a criminal offence in the eyes of the law. The key here is having justification for placing the mark in the first place. As previously mentioned, the law doesn't require you to test, but it does require you to have justification for why the system is CE compliant.

The system is compliant, because it works, and I tested it.

No really, your introducing a very small number of systems, using quality parts, so I don't understand why any issue could not be tackled in court should the need arise.

Your liability is only as large as the problem you create, which is going to be small.

This is not what the law sees. You are classed as exactly the same if you build one pc or thousands!

It's not what the law states, its how the law is interpreted.

You'll be judged in court based on your actions, or inactions, and the consequences of those actions, or inactions.

If you build a uncertified PC for a kid at home, small problem, most likely you'll be forced to pay for a new (compliant) PC as or with compensation. But if you sold the same system to hospitals for viewing x-ray images, and something went wrong with other medical machinery, its a different kettle of fish altogether.

 

[businessowner350]

I've just been in touch with Valpack and the guy said on the phone that unfortunately there is no minimum and even if you make 1 pc a year, you have to pay approx £500 + VAT a year.

As for the CE marking, I agree with you tottaly about what you say. I'll send you a PM in a minute discussing this.

Cheers

 

[FreelanceSoftwareDeveloper]

Self Certification for CE marking isn't particularly difficult. I don't have all the details to hand but I do have some useful info on this. It's not as hard as it seems to justify the EMC compliance without testing, like you say testing is impossible unless you use a specialist facility which is very costly.

I did consider a business in this area as it's a classic case of 'consultants' charging lots of money to do very little except baffle you with jargon!

 

[businessowner350]

Self Certification for CE marking isn't particularly difficult. I don't have all the details to hand but I do have some useful info on this. It's not as hard as it seems to justify the EMC compliance without testing, like you say testing is impossible unless you use a specialist facility which is very costly.

I did consider a business in this area as it's a classic case of 'consultants' charging lots of money to do very little except baffle you with jargon!

If you have info on this area then it would be really appreciated if you could share. Maybe you could PM me with details?

Maybe I've just been speaking to the wrong people about this (consultants!)

Thanks