Legal issue - please help - non paying customer.

[Janz]

Dear Professional Users,

I have quite a problem. I'm hosting one site for over 4years. Their were always late with the payment and quite complicated...

They didn't pay for 10 months and I send them invoices in January telling them they should pay ASAP. They were not replying for nearly month and when they finally replied (few weeks ago) they only tell me that they are not using the site anymore and they would not pay me anything!

I tried to compromise by giving them discount and explaining them that they can't just run away without payment and without notification about they are leaving.

As I found from emails (on the server) - the last time they used the email (email services) was only couple of weeks ago! So it's obvious that they were using the services.

Since no compromise was agreed (they just don't want to pay anything) I closed their site down and put the NO payment message on the site, naively hoping that they would start to talk to me at least in some fair way.

What happen now is, that they said they would take me to court for that Non Payment message (which is there only for 3days after over 10months of non payment).

The only problem from my side is that I can't find the original agreement, however I'm hoping I still have the rights based on the fact they paid till 10months ago for over 3years.

The last email said that They are taking me to court because of damaging their business by posting the NO payment note on the site. And surprisingly they also said I should take them to court I want the money but I can't win because there is no contract or terms of use.

So, they seem sot be quite confident that they could run away without paying.

Any advice please?
What do you think I should do? Are they trying to scare me or am I in trouble?

Thank you very much!
Regards
J.

 

[kulture]

If they e-mailed you saying that they are not using the site, then they can hardly complain about you taking it down and your FACTUAL comment about them not paying.

I suggest that you keep the factual comment up there until they pay.

 

[kulture]

You do not need a written contract, although it is clearly better to have one, to chase a debt. You invoiced them, they have a history of paying for the service, they are still using the service, they did not dispute the invoice. A fairly strong case.

 

[Janz]

Thank you for your replies kulture!

Even better, just found that their new domain name was purchased after I started to "chase" them for the money. (They bought it on 15.02.2011 and my main "full amount" invoice was sent on 29.01.2011.)

If they take me to court, I hope judge will use common sense. Yes, I have no contract in hand, but they used the services - as I could prove in email box. (Funny, after I told them that they were using the email they said they thought it's for free since Invoices always stated "Hosting and Support Services" - well, it's obvious that emails takes space too and they need to be hosted )

I'm only hoping that they haven't got a chance!

Thank you and if anybody have any advice, please keep posting!

Regards
J.

 

[Clarkmans]

Hi

Where there is no written contract certain terms are implied under various acts. Under s.15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 it will be an implied term that you are paid a reasonable amount for the work done. This amount may have to be determined by a judge if you cannot agree the figures.

If you need further help please feel free to contact me.

 

[phoenixmatt]

Janz, I would have thought that you were well within your rights to do what you have done.

Surely an invoice can be deemed as a written contract?

Anyway, I had a similar experience recently, I say similar, it was an error on both parts, but my web hoster tried to take monies from my pay pal account recently for the hosting fees, and I hadn't transferred any money into it from my bank account so there was nothing to take.

He quite rightly suspended my website until it had been paid, and this was just an oversight on my behalf.

Keep fighting Janz

 

[Janz]

Hi

Where there is no written contract certain terms are implied under various acts. Under s.15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 it will be an implied term that you are paid a reasonable amount for the work done. This amount may have to be determined by a judge if you cannot agree the figures.

If you need further help please feel free to contact me.

Thank you very much Clarkmans,
as mentioned before the amount is/was £30. One of their argument was that they could have it elsewhere for only $5... which I replied that if they wish they could move it somewhere else, but they have to pay the money for the services provided till the end of February. (Anytime they wanted any support it was provided for free/included in the £30)

Thank you very much you advice. Hopefully this " Under s.15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 " would not be against me.

Thank you very much.
Regards
J.

 

[Janz]

Janz, I would have thought that you were well within your rights to do what you have done.
.... Keep fighting Janz

Thank you for your honesty Matt,
I had similar experience before I set up my own server... But my problem was that I have been charged twice (using paypal too) .... and never get the money back.

Regards...

 

[kulture]

Thank you very much Clarkmans,
as mentioned before the amount is/was £30. One of their argument was that they could have it elsewhere for only $5... which I replied that if they wish they could move it somewhere else, but they have to pay the money for the services provided till the end of February. (Anytime they wanted any support it was provided for free/included in the £30)

Thank you very much you advice. Hopefully this " Under s.15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 " would not be against me.

Thank you very much.
Regards
J.

It really does not matter that they can get hosting for 5 elsewhere. £30 for a year is not much, and I am guessing that it is in line with what you previously charged and they paid.

 

[Janz]

It really does not matter that they can get hosting for 5 elsewhere. £30 for a year is not much, and I am guessing that it is in line with what you previously charged and they paid.

It is actually £30/month. They paid till the May 2010. They never said that they would like to close the site and not continue using it. Maybe they could find cheaper services, but as we all know there are hidden cost and I never charge them for support etc.

Who knows!?
Fingers cross!
Thanks a lot to all of you!
Regards...

 

[allington-marketing]

Hi
I love the people who want to sue for defamation (or as an ex boyfriend once told me, he was suing me for 'deformation'...).
They haev to prove loss of earnings, it will not be processed through the small claims court. Basically, if they want to take you to court for defamation, they're looking at over £100k in legal costs. Clearly worth it if they've lost £50m in business, but since they can't be bothered to pay your invoice, it's highly unlikely.
So basically, don't tell him you know he can't sue you, but pursue him. I would make a claim no matter the amount, out of principle. All you have to do is send a letter before action (google it for some templates), then fill out an online claims form. There is a contract in place since they have paid for the service previously. Hit them with a CCJ and then see how long they last once their D&B report plummets and they can't get credit!
At this point, I should say that I am not a lawyer! So don't sue me for poor advice
I hate non-payers; have a few of my own at the moment! Grrr
Good luck!

 

[steve23]

Well, first off, ignore what they are saying as it is total bluff and going nowhere.

Second, move on !

Lets face it, you have not helped yourself by leaving it 10 months before chasing the debt - and what they said about the email use, well, it is a point.

What may be obvious to you may not be to them - or in truth they are just trying it on.

Either way, you don't need this hassle.

People are going to say pursue them for it, get them a CCJ etc etc but you still probably wont get your money back.

Take it for what it is - a learning experience, and put more robust procedure in place ref your contracts / T and C's etc.

If you learn from it, they may have done you a favour.

All the best

Steve

 

[Janz]

At this point, I should say that I am not a lawyer! So don't sue me for poor advice

Not at all dear allington-marketing!
Thank you very much for your advice! Since I have no experience in this everything counts! And they are small business not big corporation etc...

I hate non-payers; have a few of my own at the moment! Grrr
Good luck!

good luck to you too! ( What I don't understand is, how those people could sleep! )

To Steve,

"Move and learn from it!"

Exactly! Very good point! I have to!

I don't think I'll claim anything in small court even thought I really think I would win and what is saying allington-mar. is a good plan. However as Steve said "you still probably wont get your money back" , I am also afraid I would lose time when I should be working.

But, I'll look at the Small Claim Court to find out more, especially how exactly does it work in terms of time or if it's possible to do everything online.

Right now - I'm happy to leave the No Payment Notice! If they don't like like it, they should pay!

THANK YOU ALL!!!! YOU GAVE ME CONFIDENCE TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT! SO, LET'S HOPE THE GOOD GUYS WIN THIS TIME!!!

 

[allington-marketing]

Hello Janz
With regards to the small claims court, you normally send a letter before action, fill out the forms online and submit them. They can either respond or ignore it. If they ignore it, there's no court, you just get a stamped letter saying it's gone in your favour and they have an automatic CCJ. In my experience, most people ignore them or pay up.
I appreciate that you should 'move on', but if we ignored every ten people who owe us £300, that's £3k and a lot to lose.
I don't understand why they do it. They seem to think that because they no longer want the item, they don't pay. That's right, I shall get my house replumbed, a new boiler, then say 'actually I don't want it any more' and the plumber will say 'okay, that's fine, I'll leave it here for you to use but don't worry about paying'. It doesn't work in the real world, so why people think they can get away with it when using small businesses is beyond me!
Best of luck!

 

[Janz]

Hello Janz
With regards to the small claims court,....
doesn't work in the real world, so why people think they can get away with it when using small businesses is beyond me!
Best of luck!

Thank you very much for the information Steve! You are right based on the principle! I totally agree with everything and I should be "strong" enough to do it!
( The example with boiler is good, I have been working on website development for 2months and finish it to only find that they don't want it anymore! In this case I have all emails, agreement etc. In this case we talk about £2500 so I'm really thinking about to do this one.)

What ever will happen I'll let you know so you know the END of the story... Hopefully it will be the Happy End for me

ALL THE BEST!!!

 

[allington-marketing]

Steve? Steve? Who you calling Steve?! Ha ha.
Use that example when you deal with non payers.
Be sure to update on here!

 

[Steve Thornbury]

Happy to help Steve and anyone else affected by non-payers!!

Steve (No really!)

 

[allington-marketing]

AGH! I'm being haunted by Steves!
Maybe I've become one myself...like a zombie!

 

[Janz]

My biggest apologize for calling you Steve, Mr.Allington-Marketing

Have a great weekend to all of you! Thanks to you I have smile on face and I'm going to enjoy it!

Thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks.... !!!!

 

[allington-marketing]

Oh no. I'm still being called a man! I'm a Miss or a Ms (depending on how old you think I am!).
Enjoyr your weekend, sir!

 

[Janz]

Hehe!
Truly sorry!
Who ever you are, you are great

All the best Ms Allington!
Regards...

 

[allington-marketing]

Aww! I'm winding you up.
(Although I am actually female!!).
Enjoy your weekend and good luck finding trustworthy clients!
Terri

 

[Janz]

Hi Terri and others,

hope you are all well. The story continues.... and I would really appreciate if you could tell me what you think. Basically I received letter from their solicitor and I don't know if they are just trying it again or they are really going to take me to court for £300 they owe me!

The only thing that thay say now is that I field to explain the calculation, which is not really true, because I always replied to them that it's for hosting and support services if they need any as it always was. It was always fine for them till they stop paying obviously.

Thank you very much for your time and thoughts
Regards...

(I wanted to attached the image of the letter, but I can't till I have 15 or more posts here, but I could send it to anyone... just one page, not much text at all! Thanks a lot! or please try: img801XimageshackXusSLASHimg801SLASH9045SLASHissuegXjpg

 

[Geoff T]

Hi Janz - if you want to email me a pdf version of the letter, my email can be found thrugh members search - be happy to look at it for you - just in case the "Steves" or "Terri's" are busy...

 

[allington-marketing]

Hi
Jan sent me the letter by email.
To me, as I've said to Jan, if a client approaches a solicitor, that solicitor would not turn work down because they don't agree with the client; they're going to get paid regardless.
I have a similar issue at the moment with a client and I'm sure it's just them 'trying it on' because they've decided they don't want it anymore and assume that they no longer have to pay, without giving notice.
The text is pasted in my next post as it's too long to post in one go!

 

[allington-marketing]

We act for the above named company. Our client has passed on certain recent
correspondence relating to a dispute between you regarding web site support and hosting in
respect of the XXXX.
In relation to that web site, we note the statement you have added regarding non-payment of
fees. Our client refutes that suggestion. As you are fully aware, our client has asked you
repeatedly to explain the calculation and basis (commercial and contractual) for your
purported invoice, which is the subject matter of the dispute. You have failed to do so.

 

[allington-marketing]

The statement added by you to the site is clearly defamatory and as such unlawful. We
require you to immediately remove the notice and take down the web site from the internet. If
this is not done within 2 business days of receipt of this letter, our client reserves the right to
seek immediate injunctive relief and commence proceedings for damages in respect of trade
libel, the considerable legal costs associated with which, wi ll be your responsibility.
Please confirm your compliance with this letter by return.

 

[steve23]

I think this is a load of hog wash from the solicitor, but I also dont think you stand much of a chance getting your unpaid fee, so with that in mind, I would just take the web site down and right it all off.

I don't see any point letting this generate more hassle - its very annoying I would agree, but these things happen.


All the best

Steve