Left employment of own accord where do I stand

[Maho]

Hi All,

My predicament is this,

I was employed by a member of my family in an office position which then became a labour position as time and need went on just over a 1yr.

The plan had originally been agreed for my brother who owns his company and has been successful to help me to start a company of my own as a Graphic Designer, whilst I helped with the office work for his company, this was made impossible by the number of hours that I was working for his company.

I left the employment today, as a heated discussion arose and I decided it was getting too close to becoming physical as it has done about 4 or 5 times in the past, granted as in most scenarios like this it was a mixture of both of us but my brothers very fiery temper would usually take things from verbal to physical.

On this occasion it was getting to close and as my brother had told me that we had been close to fighting the day before I decided to remove myself from the situation and said 'Im not going to do this! Im going' to this my Brother/Boss said if you go you don't come back, I stayed and tried to sort the problem but the tension didn't stop and the risk of it turning physical became higher so I decided to go.

I understood at the time that this meant that I would not be back. But I was

He has since Phoned me and told me that the Computer bought by the company, would be coming back, even though there was a verbal arrangement between ourselves that once I had completed some new brand designs and webpages then the computer would be mine and that Instead of paying by an hourly rate this would be covered by my not charging him for the time spent.

I spent numerous hours working on the brand logo and website and he has used them and still does. The hours must be in excess of 60 to 100 hours maybe even double including other project that I have done with no charge since.

The desktop computer was purchased at £2000 a little under one year ago and has been in my possession since it was purchased.

Any information as to where I stand in both of these situations would be appreciated.

What are my legal obligations and what are his?

Many Thanks

MH

 

[YourLaw.co]

Hi Maho

There are a great deal of questions that I would need to be answered to be able to be clear about your position. You should probably think carefully before trying to use the law against your brother but judging by your post it appears that you have already made that decision.

Having said that it seems to me that you you have a good case for a constructive dismissal claim at the Employment Tribunal.

Also on the face of what you say the computer is yours now that you have done the work that he agreed to being the price that you paid for the computer. I would suggest that if he wants to take the computer you should tell him that you will report it to the police and if he takes it do report to the police that he has stolen it.

You can start a claim at the Employment Tribunal yourself or you would be much better to get some advice first.

Good luck

Francis

 

[arcon5]

Also on the face of what you say the computer is yours now that you have done the work that he agreed to being the price that you paid for the computer. I would suggest that if he wants to take the computer you should tell him that you will report it to the police and if he takes it do report to the police that he has stolen it.

The only problem being verbal agreements are hard to prove, so if he denied agreeing to that then it's his word against his brothers -- and it's his brothers company who has proof of purchase for it.

 

[YourLaw.co]

Yes it is always true to say that it is difficult to prove a verbal agreement but it is not very often the case that if the OP is telling the truth that his brother will not tell the truth.

Having said that it may be that a Tribunal and/or a bench of magistrates may have to decide who is telling the truth at some point. Based on what the OP says the brother is likely to have a hard time convincing the decision makers that he paid for all that work or that the OP did not do all that work so it is most likely that the OP is the one telling the truth.

It is for the OP to decide whether to run with it.

Francis

 

[Consistency]

So where there is no written proof, it just becomes a he says she says with one person deciding who is telling the truth and they may be wrong?

So if the employer is a man, a few stones overweight, strong accent, etc etc and the woman is considered to be a girl (as for some reason some men still call women girls even when they are 50), blonde, skinny, fake tanned and what is considered to be attractive today etc and crying, who is the judge going to believe?

 

[Montaigne]

So if the employer is a man, a few stones overweight, strong accent, etc etc and the woman is considered to be a girl (as for some reason some men still call women girls even when they are 50), blonde, skinny, fake tanned and what is considered to be attractive today etc and crying, who is the judge going to believe?

It's good to see you have such faith in the impartiality of our justice system

 

[Podge]

So where there is no written proof, it just becomes a he says she says with one person deciding who is telling the truth and they may be wrong?

So if the employer is a man, a few stones overweight, strong accent, etc etc and the woman is considered to be a girl (as for some reason some men still call women girls even when they are 50), blonde, skinny, fake tanned and what is considered to be attractive today etc and crying, who is the judge going to believe?

The one whose story rings true. Not all men are like you connie

 

[Consistency]

No, they are not all like me! Wouldn't the world be a good place if it was


Sometimes what rings true is not always true and sometimes it is who is the better actor or actress who is believed.

 

[Maho]

Hi Francis and all,

I dont plan to use legal action unless completely necessary i.e. I have monies owed to me which may or may not be paid, my car was also damaged by my brother whilst it was in his possession and a promise to fix it was made, The computer has been used as a personal computer for over a year which has ment that Ive put money into it myself and as its a mac there is no way to transfer to a cheaper computer.

It is my belief that i will be paid all monies and the car will be repaired in time, as my brother is usually fairly fair with these situations,

But.... the Mac is his one concession, he likes to have the last say and prove that he's not to be messed with so to speak, even though the verbal agreement was that it would be mine once I had done this work, and my personal feeling is that i have paid for it 5 or 6 times over with the amount of work I have completed for his company,

Including complicated spreadsheets and other company stationary, and then the website and brand design.

My brother is ultimately computer illiterate and has no need for a computer which was built for art,design or programming, so to take it is his way to hurt me because I've left.

More than anything Id like to know where I stand, My opinion is strongly biased to my own case as will be my brothers to his,

if there is a strong following that with the facts Ive given, that I'm in the right then I will pursue this personally before contemplating using any legal authority.

I understand family issues are difficult because there is a large amount of emotion involved and tied to each issue so i appreciate any opinions / information offered

Many thanks MH

 

[saxondale]

do the only thing you can do - walk away, far away.

today emotions are running high, in 30 years time you can come back on here and thank me.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

My only advice if you want to pursue this is to get in touch with a solicitor who specialises in employment law. Until that point, take everything you read on a public forum with a pinch of salt.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

If you can still take to each other, explain you are going freelance, you need the computer like previously agreed and have given him plenty of help and assistance over the last year

It's obvious you cannot both work closely together, but would offer to undertake any computer requirements he has at your location and wish him luck with his company

If not talking send him a letter

You may well be able to get a cheaper model second-hand or hired to keep yo going if all else fails, half speed or even 1/4 speed is frustrating but not really that important when working on a computer unless doing massive projects as a start-up

good luck

 

[jules12345]

Choose the right employment and adjudicate for yourself where you stand.

Regards
Jules

 

[mhall]

Is your Mum still around ?- she will sort it far better than any solicitor, usually by banging your heads together.

Failing that - walk away - some things in life are more important than business and in my opinion, family is one of them.

 

[Maho]

Unfortunately he doesn't speak to my mum so that would be a none starter =P

I agree that family is important and in every other circumstance I have let bygones be bygones.

unfortunately there are many more factors that I wont bore you with. but it gets to a point where you ask yourself why do I have to back down and lose out every time.

The computer is really the last straw so to speak and although I would much rather an easy transition I feel I worked for it and if he takes it, Im not going to be willing to help when he phones me up.

Which will mean that we wont put our differences aside. which ultimately is something I want.

Thanks for your comments everyone.

 

[saxondale]

can I ask how old you both are, what business is it and whever it employed staff has premises etc etc.

it does sound like your just playing at it.

 

[Maho]

Hi Saxondale,

The company is a cleaning services and there are currently 7 staff plus myself, working from an office on a small yard, I am im 26 and he is in his early 30's

I dont quite understand why you would think I would be playing at it, or for what reason.

I am merely trying to find out how the law would stand with regard to whether or not the computer is legally mine, morally I would say it is, I even believe he would say the same, if it were the other way around.

Im certainly not playing games if thats your opinion, I have a young family and we are expecting our 3rd child in a few weeks so I'm taking this very seriously.

I would agree with you today emotions are running high, but come tomorrow just because tensions are reduced does that mean that I should take the moral high ground and give up, even though I know it will put my family in a worse position for the future.

I very much doubt I will ever take legal action but upon the chance that my brother decides to take what I think is mine I would like to be sure of my standing.

Just as much as if my Boss was not a member of my family.

 

[saxondale]

Hi Saxondale,

The company is a cleaning services and there are currently 7 staff plus myself, working from an office on a small yard, I am im 26 and he is in his early 30's

I dont quite understand why you would think I would be playing at it, or for what reason.

I am merely trying to find out how the law would stand with regard to whether or not the computer is legally mine, morally I would say it is, I even believe he would say the same, if it were the other way around.

Im certainly not playing games if thats your opinion, I have a young family and we are expecting our 3rd child in a few weeks so I'm taking this very seriously.

I would agree with you today emotions are running high, but come tomorrow just because tensions are reduced does that mean that I should take the moral high ground and give up, even though I know it will put my family in a worse position for the future.

I very much doubt I will ever take legal action but upon the chance that my brother decides to take what I think is mine I would like to be sure of my standing.

Just as much as if my Boss was not a member of my family.

understand this is just my opinion (admittedly with 30years experience of family firms, my own and others I have mentored)

forget legal action, this is my right, I`m entitled, and it`s my computer etc etc etc

thats for the legal sharks to encourage you to waste your time and energy with.

once you`ve come to blows it only will go one way, you can either walk away tomorrow break off contact and start making plans to look after your own family or hang around and hope you come off best next time too (because it will happen again)

I know which way I would walk.

 

[internetspaceships]

I'm gonna give Sax a thumbs up for this mate. Good advice there.

Life's too short to fall out with family over this. Move on.

 

[Montaigne]

I'm gonna give Sax a thumbs up for this mate. Good advice there.

Life's too short to fall out with family over this. Move on.

Advice from Saxon and Internet suggesting that if you have a problem you just roll over and take it? Where have I heard this argument before?

 

[saxondale]

Advice from Saxon and Internet suggesting that if you have a problem you just roll over and take it? Where have I heard this argument before?

that`ll be because we are real people with real life experience - I seem to remember the last ban was over taking on the plastic posters on here.

history repeats itself no doubt.

 

[Steve Sellers]

can I ask how old you both are, what business is it and whever it employed staff has premises etc etc.

it does sound like your just playing at it.

Maybe they should close the business and settle it like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q3stFYLVa4

 

[internetspaceships]

Maybe they should close the business and settle it like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q3stFYLVa4

Hehe when it came out back in the day it was a great film. Before it all got very repetitive

 

[Steve Sellers]

Hehe when it came out back in the day it was a great film. Before it all got very repetitive

Yes not quite the 'business' way of settling an disagreement, nor a business like suggestion . I just couldn't resist, classic film!

 

[internetspaceships]

Haha sometimes I wish I could settle business disagreements like that. But considering the armchair heroes you meet on here, that's hardly likely to happen

 

[Maho]

I appreciate your opinions and will take things that have been said into account,

I doubt it would have the finesse shown in kick boxer, but thanks for the idea we might consider it if nothing else works out =P

I expected a range of views,

Just a quick question to Saxondale, Do you think, On the basis that we did have a verbal agreement, and I did follow through with my side of the deal... that if I was to stand my ground and say no your not having it back as it was agreed that it would be mine after completing the work... that I would be in the wrong?

Also bearing in mind that if it was the other way round, and it was me telling him that he could not use the branding and website or stationary and literature and programmes that I developed, as he had not paid for them. would he be in the right to say no we agreed payment would be via the computer?

Thanks again I am intrigued by everyones input.

MH

 

[saxondale]

I appreciate your opinions and will take things that have been said into account,

I doubt it would have the finesse shown in kick boxer, but thanks for the idea we might consider it if nothing else works out =P

I expected a range of views,

Just a quick question to Saxondale, Do you think, On the basis that we did have a verbal agreement, and I did follow through with my side of the deal... that if I was to stand my ground and say no your not having it back as it was agreed that it would be mine after completing the work... that I would be in the wrong?

Also bearing in mind that if it was the other way round, and it was me telling him that he could not use the branding and website or stationary and literature and programmes that I developed, as he had not paid for them. would he be in the right to say no we agreed payment would be via the computer?

Thanks again I am intrigued by everyones input.

MH

thats not the point, your health and the future happiness of your wife and kids is.

You need to learn when its worth fighting and when your better off walking away, do you want to go into work monday morning as if nothing happened?

yes - then you over reacted and this threads the result

no - then you need to move on and banging on about a blasted computer is not moving on.





your call.

 

[Steve Sellers]

armchair heroes

I have noticed that actually.

 

[Maho]

Sorry I think I confused the situation with the title of the thread,

Im not going to be going back.

And you may think it is petty but if your boss/bank came and took £2000 out of your bank because they wanted to I think you'd have a different opinion, but as I said I came on here for opinions,

To help guide my decision but not to make it.

Thanks again

MH

 

[internetspaceships]

I don't understand your post?

 

[saxondale]

Sorry I think I confused the situation with the title of the thread,

Im not going to be going back.

And you may think it is petty but if your boss/bank came and took £2000 out of your bank because they wanted to I think you'd have a different opinion, but as I said I came on here for opinions,

To help guide my decision but not to make it.

Thanks again

MH

no, I wouldnt think it was petty and dont believe I have given that impression. You`ll think that because emotions are still running high


put your kids first not some poxy computer.

 

[Steve Sellers]

And you may think it is petty but if your boss/bank came and took £2000 out of your bank because they wanted to

Normally the other half that does that!

 

[jules12345]

Haha sometimes I wish I could settle business disagreements like that. But considering the armchair heroes you meet on here, that's hardly likely to happen

And armchair captain Kirks...?

 

[Maho]

Again I dont think the point has been taken,

I gave up my job because the conditions were unreasonable, the violence was the reason I left but then the hours were too much, Since I worked there each time Ive arranged something with my boss to ensure I get to spend some quality time with my family, something happened to make it change, ie

I changed my office hours so I started an hour earlier than everyone else each day and then finished an hour earlier, one of the labour lads quit and I was left to pick up his shifts, cutting the time I had to do things in the office, this ment I was working later than every one, so I changed my hours so that I worked late on 4 days and finished early on two, then amongst other things the company grew and another lad left so again I was enough of a mug to be told i was to cover the extra work,

It got to the point where My full time office job had become a full time labour job by day and in the early mornings and late evenings I covered the office job, and there was no way out that was in my opinion fair to my brother, I have been planning on leaving but the time has never been right each time its been close someone else has left and the company couldn't handle another but I never planned quite such a quick exit.

This was not the basis of my question,

The question was more the lay of the law and if the computer legally belongs to me or not.

I wasn't asking for fatherly advice so to speak, I have a dad who does that very well and although I appreciate your opinions it was merely to find that out.

So that when it does come down to the talking side of it I will be able to say ok its yours, or no I'm sorry the agreement was it became mine and that stands.

The truth is if this was not a family member and was just a matter of some big corporation and I had not left in the terms I did, I highly doubt your opinion would be the same.

A Large corporate company such as BP fuels give an employee a computer and tell them that after completing a series of jobs in their own personal unpaid time the computer is theirs,
after completing the jobs and many more after that the employee then Decides to leave due to personal reasons.
But BP send them a message saying that you will have to return the computer. Is that fair?

the problem with opinions is everyone thinks theirs is right, it wouldn't be an opinion otherwise, but if you take all of the bias's out of an opinion it becomes somewhat closer to fact.

Legally am I Right or Wrong?

morally we are both wrong I should not have left but he should not have put me in the predicament.

The last time I tried to stay and stick it out I ended up with a 5cm gash across my brow, which is now a lovely scar which reminds me that its sometimes better to do whats actually right and not what seems right, I don't want to fight with my brother but that then means I have to walk away and that is what I've done.

Many people cast aspersions on what they believe to be incorrect behaviour but it is easy to say things when the shoe is on the other foot, if my position was straight forward and it was the decision of staying amiable with my brother or keeping the computer, then I have no doubt I would not think twice about the computer in fact I would quite happily take it back personally,

I have always tried to keep a good relationship with my family, I don't hold grudges and I always try to fix problems. But in your opinion should I do this forever?

 

[Podge]

I don't think anybody will be able to answer the question for you as if it went to court it would be down to the judge to decide who's story he/she believed.

But you may have leverage if your brother was employing you in what the taxman might believe was an illegal way.

If your employment was legit ie paye then I think that the chances of you getting the computer might be slim. If however you were being paid cash in hand and let your brother know that this would come out if you were to persue the case for the pc, he might see it as the worst of two evils and let you have the pc.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[internetspaceships]

And armchair captain Kirks...?

Oh no, I'm more than happy to meet anyone to carry on a dignified discussion that started online.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

You have made your points and we have given advise basically that suggests family is better than law, you tell that you have left the firm OK done and finished, your brother has lost a good worker and will be two people down on Monday one doing the office one the cleaning

You have a new job Monday starting afresh and have five mouths to feed on a start up company which will be incredibly hard to do, so you need 1000% of your time this weekend planning for the new start

You have the computer so the worse your brother can do is apply to the courts for it's return whatever happens it will take a long time and both of you have far better things to worry about

There is only one real solution, Talk it over between yourselves and get on with life, you have wasted enough time on here now get to work and support your family full time

 

[Maho]

Thank you thats good advice which I will take, I will take a lot into account and as a couple of people have said I am wrong to question this when emotions are running high.

Thanks again to everyone I think ill call it a day there.

Cheers for all the input MH.

 

[saxondale]

Again I dont think the point has been taken,

I gave up my job because the conditions were unreasonable, the violence was the reason I left but then the hours were too much, Since I worked there each time Ive arranged something with my boss to ensure I get to spend some quality time with my family, something happened to make it change, ie

I changed my office hours so I started an hour earlier than everyone else each day and then finished an hour earlier, one of the labour lads quit and I was left to pick up his shifts, cutting the time I had to do things in the office, this ment I was working later than every one, so I changed my hours so that I worked late on 4 days and finished early on two, then amongst other things the company grew and another lad left so again I was enough of a mug to be told i was to cover the extra work,

It got to the point where My full time office job had become a full time labour job by day and in the early mornings and late evenings I covered the office job, and there was no way out that was in my opinion fair to my brother, I have been planning on leaving but the time has never been right each time its been close someone else has left and the company couldn't handle another but I never planned quite such a quick exit.

This was not the basis of my question,

The question was more the lay of the law and if the computer legally belongs to me or not.

I wasn't asking for fatherly advice so to speak, I have a dad who does that very well and although I appreciate your opinions it was merely to find that out.

So that when it does come down to the talking side of it I will be able to say ok its yours, or no I'm sorry the agreement was it became mine and that stands.

The truth is if this was not a family member and was just a matter of some big corporation and I had not left in the terms I did, I highly doubt your opinion would be the same.

A Large corporate company such as BP fuels give an employee a computer and tell them that after completing a series of jobs in their own personal unpaid time the computer is theirs,
after completing the jobs and many more after that the employee then Decides to leave due to personal reasons.
But BP send them a message saying that you will have to return the computer. Is that fair?

the problem with opinions is everyone thinks theirs is right, it wouldn't be an opinion otherwise, but if you take all of the bias's out of an opinion it becomes somewhat closer to fact.

Legally am I Right or Wrong?

morally we are both wrong I should not have left but he should not have put me in the predicament.

The last time I tried to stay and stick it out I ended up with a 5cm gash across my brow, which is now a lovely scar which reminds me that its sometimes better to do whats actually right and not what seems right, I don't want to fight with my brother but that then means I have to walk away and that is what I've done.

Many people cast aspersions on what they believe to be incorrect behaviour but it is easy to say things when the shoe is on the other foot, if my position was straight forward and it was the decision of staying amiable with my brother or keeping the computer, then I have no doubt I would not think twice about the computer in fact I would quite happily take it back personally,

I have always tried to keep a good relationship with my family, I don't hold grudges and I always try to fix problems. But in your opinion should I do this forever?

a big company wouldnt operate under those conditions for that reason.


legally the computer belongs to your brother UNLESS you have something in writing and if you did then there would be no thread one presumes.

 

[Consistency]

£2,000 for a computer! A very expensive one, does it make the tea as well? Maybe ask the computer for advice?