Late end of year return penalty

[David Griffiths]

A few years back (2006 iirc) I had a string of calls from irate clients just after Christmas, each of whom had received a £800 penalty notice, and for each of whom we processed the payroll. If all of those penalties had stuck, it would have come to over £10,000 and my clients would have been expecting me to pay up!

In every case, the returns had been filed on time and we had the email confirming receipt.

After getting shunted from pillar to post, I eventually got through to somebody who could deal with the matter. I pointed out that these forms had been filed 8 months earlier and all she could say was that they were probably "still in the pipe line." Eight months in the pipeline. She promised to get back to me on the cases, and I'm still waiting, but we, or the clients, didn't hear anything more.

Pathetic

 

[CSBob]

In every case, the returns had been filed on time and we had the email confirming receipt.

Yikes.

Just out of curiosity (never really looked into it, or had need to) isn't there any sort of official complaints / compensation procedure? Surely this sort of major cock-up on their part could be construed as harming your reputation with your clients? It's clearly not your fault but in the mind of your clients it's not always so crystal clear, and somewhere down this line this could cost you valuable business.

I dunno, it just seems so very wrong that they can virtually trash your reputation / professionalism with things like this but just walk away scot free.

 

[Tom McClelland]

You won't believe this (actually you will)

HMRC's gateway for 3rd party software to file P35/P14 is down at the moment. You get a message saying that your login details aren't correct.

We've just had a client report this to us. We checked their login details and they're right. So we tried to do a test submission P35/P14 for 12Pay Ltd itself, and sure enough the "login credentials failure" message came back for us too. Logging into their website directly with the same credentials works perfectly.

Our client checked with HMRC, and indeed got a recorded message saying that their system for online filing has gone down.

Note that the error message that you get back is completely wrong. They state that you're giving them incorrect login credentials when actually their site has failed. GRRRRR. What a load of time I just wasted investigating the credentials that the client is using.

It is a good thing that in a few years these people will be able to bring their expertise to bear making sure that everyone's employees get paid on time.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I'm sensing that we may have another HMRC blunder news story soon on PAYE penalty demands.

What do you think?

Another system cock up

 

[Tom McClelland]

I'm sensing that we may have another HMRC blunder news story soon on PAYE penalty demands.

What do you think?

Another system cock up

I'm guessing that they've sent all these letters out, and that they've been hit by a wave of filing from all the people who had genuinely forgotten to file for one reason or another, and for some reason their systems weren't braced for the volumes.

 

[Tom McClelland]

Just had a chat with a different client, and the system for filing P45/P46 is still working, because he's just filed some using 12Pay.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I'm guessing that they've sent all these letters out, and that they've been hit by a wave of filing from all the people who had genuinely forgotten to file for one reason or another, and for some reason their systems weren't braced for the volumes.

They may well be genuine letters but there seem to be a lot for companies that have closed down.

Just had a tweet about this from an accountant plus I think there is something on Aweb.

Think it was a couple of years ago when HMRC announced that they had sent loads of incorrect letters out.

So am thinking maybe the same cock up

Hope to be proved wrong and it's not another HMRC blunder and huge waste of tax payers money

 

[Bob]

Why, exactly, did these letters not go out on the 27th May? There would be absolutely nothing stopping HMRC nagging people straight away. They don't get anything more than £100 from the people who'd paid on time, so why do they terrify people with the wording of the letter? Some of the people hit with these letters will get very distressed.

I asked exactly the same question when I was on one of the Working Together local groups. The answer was that they had to wait for a slot when they had spare computer and printer capacity to deal with the print run and that the system was to busy before September

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

BTW do remember that all HMRC on line systems are down this weekend for maintenance.

 

[Tom McClelland]

BTW do remember that all HMRC on line systems are down this weekend for maintenance.

Taking their 3rd party P35 filling system down the same week that they send out hundreds of thousands of reminder notices beggars belief.

And they should give an appropriate message when you try to file online, not give you the completely false statement that your credentials are wrong.

 

[Rexxom]

Not to my knowledge as anything I recieve I call the accountant and ask what am i meant to do!

 

[Rexxom]

CIS penalties are higher.

 

[QuickHomeBuyers]

End of the day, we cant do anything against this mafia, so have to live with the new rules.

 

[Homshaw]

A few years back (2006 iirc) I had a string of calls from irate clients just after Christmas, each of whom had received a £800 penalty notice, and for each of whom we processed the payroll. If all of those penalties had stuck, it would have come to over £10,000 and my clients would have been expecting me to pay up!

In every case, the returns had been filed on time and we had the email confirming receipt.

After getting shunted from pillar to post, I eventually got through to somebody who could deal with the matter. I pointed out that these forms had been filed 8 months earlier and all she could say was that they were probably "still in the pipe line." Eight months in the pipeline. She promised to get back to me on the cases, and I'm still waiting, but we, or the clients, didn't hear anything more.

Pathetic

Things similar to this happen regularly. I worry about what the client think.

I have a 400 pound fine at the moment for a client. I'll be in at work checking out what went wrong tomorrow.

Does there have to be culpability in this because I suspect I might have missed a rejected filing. It's easy to do when you are filing large numbers of P35's

Not a big problem the company has ceased trading and has no assets.

 

[Homshaw]

Well I have a receipt saying it was received. I was a worried man

Tried to refile but HMRC wouldn't accept it saying my login or the client details were incorrect. The login is built into the software and works for all other clients. The client details were brought forward from the previous year where they worked fine

Starting to think there must be something better to do with my time. Any work ideas for an ageing frustrated accountant. My Sunday morning is ruined and I'll spend an hour (pension day) at the post office getting a receipt for the letter

 

[Tom McClelland]

Tried to refile but HMRC wouldn't accept it saying my login or the client details were incorrect. The login is built into the software and works for all other clients. The client details were brought forward from the previous year where they worked fine

All online 3rd party attempts to file P35s are currently being refused by HMRC with an "invalid login credentials" message. This has been the case since Friday. It appears that their system is down, and is returning an entirely inappropriate message when you try to file. Someone told me that this downtime is a scheduled downtime (good timing, eh, when they've just sent out all those "Naughty, naughty, you haven't filed" messages). And if this *is* a scheduled downtime then why on earth doesn't their system return a more sensible message when you try to file?

 

[Homshaw]

Another thing that is peeing me off is you have 30 days to appeal but the letter was 14 days old by the time I received it

 

[Tom McClelland]

Re your filing receipt. If it is an email receipt don't forget that (in another brilliant part of HMRC's system design) you get an identical message for both test and live filings.

 

[Homshaw]

I've never done a test filing at any point. If they have a system that gives out misleading receipts I don't know what I am expected to do about it

I had this with a self assesment return - when I rang up they said you might have a receipt but we don't accept this as proof we received it

It's about time the accountancy bodies took a tougher line on this. If time is spent sorting out problems which can not be charged to the client and are the HMRC's fault they should be made to pay compensation. However I suspect the budget deficit might double

One small mistake or oversight on your part and you have significant fines to stand. Spend hours sorting out problems caused by the HMRC and you stand the cost

 

[Bob]

Spend hours sorting out problems caused by the HMRC and you stand the cost

Of course it does depend upon how well you know the client. If you feel able to bill the client for the time spent, they can claim recompense from HMRC.

While I was in practice we used to do this regularly. Only problem was that client had to have paid you before they were reimbursed, but in those days the Inland Revenue normally refunded the client.

 

[nrowe2]

Hello,

My names Natalie and I own a tiny shop and pay my mum very small wages... I don't make anything really from the shop and admit to being a TOTAL novice at filing returns ect.

I have just recieved a penalty notice today for £400! As I haven't sent through my P35 and P11... I have no excuses apart from the fact I had NO idea I had to send these through as my Mum doesn't earn enough to pay TAX and NICS... I cannot afford £400..And I don't know what to do?

Is there anyway I can avoid this fine? I have no idea how or what to say in my defence/appeal??

Please help

Natalie xxx

 

[billy buntin]

OMG i am a new employer and this is the first thing i have seen about filling in an employer annual return. I have never recieved anything to ask me to complete anything or knew anything about a deadline or anything. I have been paying HMRC quarterly online and was wondering what i was meant to do but nobody ever askd me so I just kept paying and thought at some point they would get in touch - well not just with a £400 fine!

I am lost. I work so hard to keep the business going through these times and this just feels like a kick in the teeth and makes me wonder why i bother.

I have tried calling them but their pc's are down (convenient) so can;t access records

Have i any chance of appeal? Also what should i do next I am very lost!

your penalty is nothing to do with payments, it is to do with the employers annual return due in by the 19th may each year, hmrc do not write to every employer because it is a waste of tax payers money, it is your responsibility to find out what you have to do, it is on the website and also employers bulletin. you can appeal, but the reason i didnt know wont wash.

 

[billy buntin]

How frustrating is it to be sent a 2010 £400 late filing penalty for a company that ceased to trade on 3th November 2008, filed final accounts and paid the corporation tax, sent in a final P35 for year ended 5th April 2009 and was struck off on 5th January 2010?

Shall I waste my time appealing on just let them carry on sending demands

Would ring them to let them know but they'll either not answer the phone or put me on hold and it's an 0845 number so I'll have to pay

Not sure that I can be bothered to write to them now that they don't supply "postage paid" envelopes

So glad I don't have to deal with their total incompetence on a day to day basis any more

400.00 or a 1st class stamp? a no brainer. when you say struck off do you mean you contacted companies house? that is not closing down the paye scheme that you set up, this has to be done independantly.

 

[Homshaw]

Not everyone is knowledgeable on payroll. These are small businessmen who try their best and provide employment to others

A small fine and early notification is fair. A 400 pound fine for not fully understanding something is extreme and unfair

 

[mr. mischief]

"Another thing that is peeing me off is you have 30 days to appeal but the letter was 14 days old by the time I received it."

Too right! I think it's only fair that HMRC have 30 days to reply to a letter from a taxpayer - or they have to accept its contents.

Their database is pants - I had one new client whose "SA" code arrived just 2 days before it was due to expire. It took them over 3 weeks to issue that code. I'd say that they were "pants" but that would be way too kind to them!

 

[Bob]

400.00 or a 1st class stamp? a no brainer. when you say struck off do you mean you contacted companies house? that is not closing down the paye scheme that you set up, this has to be done independantly.

Hi Billy
Looking at some of your posts, do you have a chip on your shoulder about professionals such as accountants and lawyers
Why should I spend out on a first (or even second) class stamp? Exactly how do you consider that HMRC are going to collect this penalty from a company that has been struck from the Companies House register:|

 

[Rhino RCS]

Hi,

Can someone advise me as to why i have recieved the same £400 fine.
We are a small business, with only myself as Director and Wife as CS.

We have no PAYE staff, so is the return on May 19th applicable anyway?

Regards

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Hi,

Can someone advise me as to why i have recieved the same £400 fine.
We are a small business, with only myself as Director and Wife as CS.

We have no PAYE staff, so is the return on May 19th applicable anyway?

Regards

If your company is registered with HMRC as an employer even with one employee you must still complete the end of year employer Returns.

 

[Tom McClelland]

If your company is registered with HMRC as an employer even with one employee you must still complete the end of year employer Returns.

And if the company registered as an employer HMRC doesn't actually know that you're not paying anyone. Have they been getting quarterly or monthly nil payment returns from you? If you're registered as an employer it would be slightly surprising if they're not hassling you for those.

 

[Rhino RCS]

If your company is registered with HMRC as an employer even with one employee you must still complete the end of year employer Returns.

Thanks Nicola for your response.... Not what i wanted to hear mind but non the less.... I will have to suck it up and pay it.....

Strange how they let it go for 4 months before informing you of the issue!!!???? 1 month and £100 would be much fairer.

Nick

 

[Tom McClelland]

Thanks Nicola for your response.... Not what i wanted to hear mind but non the less.... I will have to suck it up and pay it.....

Strange how they let it go for 4 months before informing you of the issue!!!???? 1 month and £100 would be much fairer.

Nick

The fine is reduced (by concession) to £100 as long as your PAYE/NI payments were up to date on 19th April.

 

[Rhino RCS]

And if the company registered as an employer HMRC doesn't actually know that you're not paying anyone. Have they been getting quarterly or monthly nil payment returns from you? If you're registered as an employer it would be slightly surprising if they're not hassling you for those.

Should i have it registered as 1 employee then if we are Director and CS?
Would that then solve this issue.....?

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Should i have it registered as 1 employee then if we are Director and CS?
Would that then solve this issue.....?

Possibly - this explains when you need to register as an employer -
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/intro/register.htm

 

[Rhino RCS]

Possibly - this explains when you need to register as an employer -

And there is my answer.... Thanks Nicola.

I am a Ltd company and therefore need to be registered!

Thank you Nicola.

Nick

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

And there is my answer.... Thanks Nicola.

I am a Ltd company and therefore need to be registered!

Thank you Nicola.

Nick

Hi Nick

You dont have to register just because you are a limited company But I suspect as a director you are being paid above the Lower Earnings threshold?

 

[Rhino RCS]

Hi Nick

You dont have to register just because you are a limited company But I suspect as a director you are being paid above the Lower Earnings threshold?

Thats right... So i am both Employer and Employee!

Nick

 

[Tom McClelland]

And there is my answer.... Thanks Nicola.

I am a Ltd company and therefore need to be registered!

Thank you Nicola.

Nick

You already *have* registered as an employer, or you wouldn't be getting the letter about the fine. Whether or not you should have registered as an employer (not every ltd needs to be an employer, only if the ltd actually pays wages to a director or an employee does it need to be an employer) is a separate question, but you already did it, which is why HMRC is expecting the annual P35 return from the company, and fining the company for not producing it.

 

[Williams lester]

Thats right... So i am both Employer and Employee!

Nick

No, you are the employee, the limited company is the employer. A lot of small limited companies struggle with the concept, but the company is totally separate to you, you just happen to be a director (and I assume a shareholder).

 

[Homshaw]

Well I have a receipt saying it was received. I was a worried man

Tried to refile but HMRC wouldn't accept it saying my login or the client details were incorrect. The login is built into the software and works for all other clients. The client details were brought forward from the previous year where they worked fine

Starting to think there must be something better to do with my time. Any work ideas for an ageing frustrated accountant. My Sunday morning is ruined and I'll spend an hour (pension day) at the post office getting a receipt for the letter

I've finally got the £400 fine cancelled

They initially said I'd filed the wrong year so the fine stood - I still don't believe I did. It was just a zero return.

I appealed again asking for proof and suggesting that even if I did file the wrong year it didn't seem a reason for a £400 fine as an attempt had been made to file and if the wrong year was filed they should have informed me

HMRC didn't provide proof they simply said as it was a nil return they would waive the fine

I'm glad the fine is cancelled but it has caused me some hassle