Landlords responsibilty.......

[jukeblf]

Hi, I have only just found/joined this forum so please be nice to me................


I took over a commercial shop (tattoo studio) in December 2010, which already had an insurance policy (public liability/artists work etc) inplace. The insurance policy is due for renewal at the end of this month. When I applied to re-new the policy, the insurance company said they would need to visit the premesis to assess prior to the renewal.
On inspection of the electricity main consumer unit and supply, I was advised by a friend that as it was old and had push in wire fuses, I should get the advise of a professional registered and qualified electrician on the regulations of such supplies.
When the electrician visited the premesis, not only did he tell me it was unsafe, but also that it would not pass any inspection for insurance purposes. Nor would he, or any reputable electrician, give any kind of certificate for the supply board.
I informed my landlord of this, and was told it was my responsibilty to change the unit at my own expense.
I have had no choice but to pay for this as I cannot trade without the relevant insurance, but can someone advise me as to whose responsibilty this is. I have checked my lease and there is nothing written in it that specifies responsibilty.....................

 

[kulture]

I would not bet on that. It is more likely that the lease will have given you responsibility for EVERYTHING. Did you run through the lease with a solicitor before you signed?

 

[internetspaceships]

Juke you need to talk to the landlords more.

Electricity fuses etc are fixtures and fittings and are the landlords responsibility and not yours.

 

[DavidBHill]

The terms of the lease will make it clear the relationship you have (or should do). There is the added complication of just how did you take over the shop - did you buy shares in a company, did you simply take over the business etc, etc

If you have a full repairing lease then the problem is yours - if you have most other kinds of lease/licence then it is the landlords problem.

I hate to make lawyers even richer but a quick chat (which you should pay for to ensure that the advice you get has a come back) with a solicitor is what I would advise - it could save thousands. And you really ought to understand your liability position.

A simple short term solution though is simply to find another less intrusive insurance company - there are still a few old fashioned insurance brokers about who can sort this kind of problem

 

[kulture]

Juke you need to talk to the landlords more.

Electricity fuses etc are fixtures and fittings and are the landlords responsibility and not yours.

For residential I would agree with you. For most commercial, I would have to completely disagree. Many commercial leases leave everything to the tenant and nothing whatsoever to the landlord.

 

[internetspaceships]

For residential I would agree with you. For most commercial, I would have to completely disagree. Many commercial leases leave everything to the tenant and nothing whatsoever to the landlord.

And I would have to ask how many commercial leases you've taken then.

 

[kulture]

Several. Why?

 

[internetspaceships]

Because on all the leases I've taken, the inherrent infrastucture on the electrics has been covered by the landlord.

 

[kulture]

All the leases I have signed started out as full repairing and got negotiated down to internal decoration only. But what has this to do with this thread? What you or I negotiate has nothing to do with what may have occurred here. It is all down to what is in the lease, and unless it is in the lease, the landlord has no obligations. For commercial there is no protection like there is in residential.

 

[kulture]

No, you are both misreading me. ISS has no doubt negotiated/agreed to sensible leases, where the landlord has assumed reasonable responsibilities. None of which matters necessarily with the OP's situation. It is entirely down to the lease.

For commercial properties, unlike residential, there are no statutory obligations on the landlord. To simply say "Electricity fuses etc are fixtures and fittings and are the landlords responsibility and not yours." is just not right.

It is entirely up to what the lease says, and the sensible option is to go through the lease with a commercial property solicitor to see just what the landlord's obligations are and what the tenants obligations are.

The OP says that the lease does not mention the electricity at all. But this could be because it is included in some overall term/condition statement, OR NOT. This is why expert advise is sensible. For all we know this could be a FRI lease, with no decent statement of initial condition.

 

[internetspaceships]

Thanks for the compliment Kulture however I'm actually coming at this from the point of reference that I've made some APPALLING judgement calls in the early leases I took out.

You're correct that it all depends upon the lease however even an FRI (full repair insure for those who were wondering) lease usually doesn't (in my humble experience) put the onus on the tenant to ensure that the main electrical/fuse system is up to spec.

Repairs yes - legal maintenance no.

Obviously some of the legal beagles here might disagree with what I've said above, however I can only comment from my own experiences.

I agree that the OP should check his lease. Until he does there's not a lot more help we can give.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

With regards to repair in majority of cases it is down to the tenants whether commercial or not, legally it is the Landlords responsibility to ensure that their property is safe to work from or live in.

*According to my Solicitor from when I had my own business a few years ago*

Try contacting these and see what they say about the matter.

http://www.esc.org.uk/public/contact-us/

 

[deniser]

I agree with Kulture. The electrical installation is down to the tenant if it is within his demise (ie. the bit he is leasing) and used exclusively by him.

The only time when it would be down to the landlord to repair (but even then the cost would be borne collectively by the tenants) is if it is a shared building and the electrical installation serves all the different units within the building.

You are supposed to have a survey before you take on commercial premises and any surveyor would have highlighted the need to get a separate electrical survey done if the electrics were old or uncertificated.

By all means read the lease to make sure but I think you will find - unless it is a shared installation serving more than one unit - that it is your responsibility.

At least, if it is your responsibility you have control over who does the work and at what cost. If the landlord were doing the work he could do it at any cost (within reason) and charge it to you.

 

[deniser]

legally it is the Landlords responsibility to ensure that their property is safe to work from or live in.

[/url]

No, this is not the case. For residential yes, for commercial no.

 

[internetspaceships]

Fair enough, I've got no problem with being corrected by someone!

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

No, this is not the case. For residential yes, for commercial no.

So my Solicitor was wrong and My old Landlord forked out for a full rewire which cost him over £4500 for no reason at all - baring in mind he himself was a letting agent and his son himself was a Solictor and they didn't argue at all?

Bonus... Sucks to be him

 

[Tej]

Fair enough, I've got no problem with being corrected by someone!

For your info.. I believe Deniser is a legal Eagle ( not just someone)

 

[internetspaceships]

For your info.. I believe Deniser is a legal Eagle ( not just someone)

I was being discrete Tej (I knew )

 

[Tej]

I was being discrete Tej (I knew )

.Bloody knowall

 

[internetspaceships]

.Bloody knowall

If I was a knowall the lady in question wouldn't have nailed my ass to the wall, now would she? lol

 

[Tej]

If I was a knowall the lady in question wouldn't have nailed my ass to the wall, now would she? lol

Too true blue

 

[deniser]

So my Solicitor was wrong and My old Landlord forked out for a full rewire which cost him over £4500 for no reason at all - baring in mind he himself was a letting agent and his son himself was a Solictor and they didn't argue at all?

Bonus... Sucks to be him

Sounds like good negotiating to me and proves why getting a solicitor and a surveyor to check the property out before you sign the lease will save you money in the long term. Compare your situation and the OPs. Before you sign you have the upper hand and can ask for the landlord to do repairs. Once you sign they are down to you.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Psst Deniser...

I didn't actually sign the lease and neither did my Wife at the time

 

[deniser]

Psst Deniser...

I didn't actually sign the lease and neither did my Wife at the time

You mean the lease was already subsisting or you are occupying without a written lease?