Keeping my band legitimate

jt77464

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Jul 22, 2009
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I run a small function band, two piece and three piece. I handle all the cheques and pay my musicians in cash. I earn less than £6475 but obviously I handle more than that in a year, around £20,000. How do I prove to the taxman that I didn't keep all of that, ie most of it was paid to my musicians who performed the events? As far as I'm aware I can pay the musicians however I want and it's their responsibility to declare their own earnings etc. Thanks
 

jt77464

Free Member
Jul 22, 2009
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Thanks. Is that what's normally done? I'm new to all this, I'm a student. Apparently all students who earn anything are meant to register self employed. I wonder how many do?

I have never wanted the hassle of invoices. Would I be able to do them retrospectively if I got in trouble? Is HMRC lenient on new business people?
 
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paulears

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Jan 7, 2015
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I work with bands a fair bit - performing arts in all areas is what I do.

The HMRC are aware how odd our business is, and do make some allowances for the traditional way of dealing with money. However, if you are running a function band, you have to do it properly. How do you get the money from the people who book you? I'd assume you give them an invoice, and then they pay it. One big problem you can get into with the Revenue is when you merge your business income with your private income, so make sure you set up a business account. The cheapest (and I think best) way is the alliance and leicester business account which you run on-line. It's the cheapest business bank I could find, and after 2 years, I have no complaints.

So you get paid by cheque, and then 'divvy' it up to the band. This is quite normal, and as long as you keep records, you won't have issues - AS LONG AS - all the people in the band are genuinely self-employed and have the appropriate UTR set up with HMRC. What could happen is that one of the band is actually a full time PAYE person, and is doing the music for a bit of extra income. Do you as the band leader/MD/organiser know for certain? What could happen is that you get selected for inspection/investigation. This is rotten, and goes through absolutely everything you do at transaction level. If you tell them what time to turn up, what to play, and perhaps provide the PA, or do the negotiations with the venue/client, the HMRC could decide you are actually an employer and this is not good. You would have been paying employers NI, and deducting PAYE from their pay, submitting records and keeping lots of details. So it would be possible for the Revenue to want YOU to pay the bits the others should have done. You don't know for certain they are paying their own NI and Tax.

What bands usually do is draw up an agreement - doesn't have to be done by the legal people, but it sets out the status, and distribution of money - making it clear you are not the employer, just one of the group who is doing the negotiating on their behalf. Paying money into an account in the band name also helps separate it. Although it will likely say BIZARRE FUNCTION BAND - F Smith T/A on the cheques!

If you take on subs, and have to pay them in cash, then you need an invoice from them, or other documentation that set's their status.

I remember the Revenue Inspector in the final meeting after the investigation, just going through a few items she'd been looking at.

Why did you take out £300 every week for ten weeks? I gave it to a Romanian Dwarf was my answer. I really did - I was doing pantomime and there is a shortage of dwarfs, so for Christmas, many come in from abroad to work. This was just before Romania joined the EU, and I couldn't get this poor bloke a bank account, so the company paid £300 into my account, and I gave it to him. Panto also explained why I'd bought 30 pairs of white ladies pants from M&S. The Revenue lady soon understood the rather odd way we work, once I explained it all.

So my best advice is to regularise what you do. The band each give you an invoice for their services, you keep them with your records. All you need is to be able to prove you didn't keep the money. Self-employment status will be your problem, I suspect.

What you don't want to be is an employer. However, don't forget that as self-employed all sorts of your genuine outgoings can be legitimate expenses - especially so if you incur outgoings that should be deducted from your profits, even though you may end up having to pay them in full!
 
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Thanks. Is that what's normally done? I'm new to all this, I'm a student. Apparently all students who earn anything are meant to register self employed. I wonder how many do?

You register as self-employed with HMRC.

All students who earn anything do not have to be classed as self-employed. If they work for somebody then their employer deals with their tax issues on their behalf!
If they are making money by themself like you are then they are self-employed.

Unless I am corrected here, but students have no additional tax benefits than anybody else. We all get the first £6475 (I can't remember exact amount of top of my head) tax-free. Students don't usually make any more than this so therefore pay nil tax. It seems to be quite a common misconception that students don't pay tax because of their student status, when infact its just because they don't hit the threshold.

I have never wanted the hassle of invoices. Would I be able to do them retrospectively if I got in trouble? Is HMRC lenient on new business people?

I doubt they would be lenient! Information about taxes and self-employed is available everywhere. On the HMRC website, you can phone them, get leaflets that explain everything.

Just get invoices from them!! Don't even risk it!! What if they aren't declaring properly or loose records of what you gave them? If you then get your numbers wrong the tax man may estimate your expenditure - and I doubt leniency would be shown here!
Just require them to issue you with invoices - it takes little of your time and saves you from getting your finances in a complete mess!!
 
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jt77464

Free Member
Jul 22, 2009
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Thanks paulears. How can I avoid being an employer? I tend to do all the negotiations with clients, and tell the players where to turn up and who to ask for. Normally I get a cheque, but sometimes the cheque is in one of the player's names (if I'm not paying) and sometimes it's cash. If it's cash I don't run the whole amount through my books, but just divvy it on the spot.

I didn't realise I could be an employer. What's the definition for an employer? How do they decide what's just bandmates, one of whom takes the initiative to do the talking to clients? When I was an undergrad noone I played with ever bothered with self-employed, even though it's a legal requirement.

Am I legally obliged to check the tax status of every musicians that I ask to play for me? Sometimes I don't even know who plays, I delegate one band member to sort out the players and he gets whoever is around. Sometimes I don't know who that is.

Keeping a record of everything would be a major pain in the ass. I have all details logged on a google docs spreadsheet, so if I had to I could retrace all steps.

Thanks for your help
 
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paulears

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Jan 7, 2015
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Suffolk - UK
This is a really big problem in the Performing Arts industry, where traditionally everyone who works on different productions, for different people always was self-employed, but the guidelines HMRC have fit us with some difficulty. In truth, if you all work together, all of the time, for one centre then it would be hard to see you as anything other than employees, but holiday centres in particular 'employ' people on fixed term contracts, maybe (even for the resident band who play every week for maybe 5 or 6 nights) on one month contracts - this, they argue successfully is NOT employment.

I work for myself, am VAT registered and for one of my regular clients this is enough - they give me a contract for the total fee for the period, and I invoice them before I start. However, I have around 18 cast and crew under me, and apart from the top turns who are VAT registered like me, the rest get PAYE status - and pay Class 1 NI contributions. This is an arrangement approved by HMRC and is designed to ensure that the production company don't get hit with paying the Tax the cast and crew should have done - when their self-employed status turns out to be bogus. The company just won't take the chance.

However, another regular client always deducts 20% tax from my fees yet their deal with HMRC doesn't require NI contributions - weird, but no doubt brought about by problems in the past. As I really am Self-Employed, I've paid tax I shouldn't. The system my accountant suggested to deal with this is to show the invoice for the full amount, but when they pay, clear the entire invoice (even though this is actually 20% short) - at the same time I create an entry as if I have bought something for the tax element. This counteracts the missing money and keeps the book straight. When he prepares my accounts, he takes this tax paid into consideration when working out my liability.

That's confused you enough, I guess.

Musicians are by nature unreliable, so you'll have to work out if you dare risk doing it how you currently are. If you have documentation to explain it all, I'd suspect you will be OK, but if your paperwork is iffy, or worse, one of the band gets in trouble with HMRC, then you can expect them to be very interested.

My advice is pay everything via a bank account so there is a paper trail in and out. So you bank the cheque for £1000, then you give each of them a cheque for £250.

Finally, it is quite possible to be self-employed AND PAYE at the same time, but really you just need an accountant. I always say it, but a decent accountant can almost guarantee to save you more than he costs, and the Revenue like dealing with accountants, rather than idiots like us who do best guess!

Many accountants will give you 30 mins of advice free and your books might be quite simple and not cost a lot - I'd recommend getting one, even if this has to come from your own percentage. You could find all sorts of advantages. If you wear special clothing on stage - you might get away with this as expenses. This has got a bit tighter over the years, but if you have to buy equipment for work, and you could argue stage wear you can't wear outside is work equipment - then this may reduce your tax liability. I've switched to in-ear monitors as I want to protect myself from too much noise, and this kind of thing will be fine in the accounts too.

Students often think they're self-employed as they do a bit of playing, but the Revenue do accept the concept of hobby income as an alternative to self-employment. It depends on your circumstances. Mind you, I cannot sign on and if I don't work, I don't get any income. If the rest of the band get money from other sources, I'd be careful - because when the Revenue think you have earned, they'll want their cut - and the onus is on you to prove you don't owe it, not the other way around. Could you afford to pay a year's employers tax and NI contributions on the money you have paid them?

Unlikely, but possible.
 
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jt77464

Free Member
Jul 22, 2009
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Thanks very much.

So, if I earn under the £6475 tax threshold then accountancy fees come out of my own pocket; but if I earn over that amount the fees are deductible so the accountant is essentially 'free' to me? Is that right?

Thanks
 
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paulears

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Jan 7, 2015
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Suffolk - UK
Not really - you pay tax on your profit, not turnover. So the system allows you to take income, remove allowed expenditure and this gives you your profit which is kind of effective income - you are allowed some income before tax, as in your personal allowance, then you pay 20% on whatever is remaining.

You will also pay Class 2 NI contributions by direct debit (but they are rather cheap anyway) then you pay Class 4 National Insurance on the profits too - like an extra tax!
 
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