Is it possible to change software/programming in a vending machine?

[WHARTY]

I am wondering if i was to buy a food vending machine if it's possible to change the software so it will move the motors in the machine in a different manner?

I want to be able to make it do things that it hasn't been programmed to do by the manufacturer.

Do manufactures or software developers put a lock on the programming so it can't be changed?

Any help very much appreciated.

 

[mit74]

interesting one. It's very likely in this day and age the system can be reprogrammed if you know what you're doing but would take a lot of trial and error doing it yourself. I imagine it has some sort of API to it.

 

[Peanut Butter Man]

I imagine, and thats all it is, that you could buy or reprogramme the ROM on the motherboard. kind of the way that most devices these days can be hacked. Did you google the machine make/number and hack? maybe worth a try.

 

[WHARTY]

I imagine, and thats all it is, that you could buy or reprogramme the ROM on the motherboard. kind of the way that most devices these days can be hacked. Did you google the machine make/number and hack? maybe worth a try.

Thanks. Yes i have googled for hacks but most of the hacks are so that people can scam the operator for freebies.

I am wondering now that if i can't reprogramme the ROM if i could just buy a new motherboard and programme the machine myself?

If thats the case then i could simply buy a few of the same machine and have ready made motherboards to go straight in when i purchase new machines?

Is it that simple?

 

[Peanut Butter Man]

I dont even think you need a motherboard. the ROM would just unplug and a new one goes in. Google ROM programming. Im not sure what you want your machine to do but maybe its out there already

 

[WHARTY]

I dont even think you need a motherboard. the ROM would just unplug and a new one goes in. Google ROM programming. Im not sure what you want your machine to do but maybe its out there already

If you have ever seen a sandwich vending machine then you will know that they have around 100 separate compartments for different products.

I want to be able to designate a compartment to a certain customer. So in essence they can reserve that compartment for a certain product they have ordered.

Let's say i order a chicken sandwich but i don't want somebody else to buy it. I could type in a code and the motors would move the compartment to the front so i can take the product I reserved.

My thinking is to have a customer order their lunch on their phone or on the computer at work. Once they have placed the order i go to the workplace and fill the machine up with orders that have been placed. The customer then simply types in the reference number and the machine does the rest.

I suppose i could look into how the train station ticketing machines work i am pretty certain it's the same kind of thing. You order your ticket online and then collect from the machine using a reference number.

It's basically a "Click And Collect" vending machine.

I think i could take on the workplace sandwich vans that you see driving around. I hate it when they turn up and only have a small selection or my favorite has already sold out.

Also, where i used to work many years ago the sandwich van would turn up at 10am and half the workforce would down tools to buy their lunch to the detriment of productivity.

I also like the idea that the customer could keep the compartment for the day so that yoghurt or fruit bowl they bought stays chilled all day.

It's just a thought anyway. I have this "Click and Collect" in my head and i think vending machines could play a big part.

 

[Peanut Butter Man]

Is that not already in place in the existing system. You key in the code for that particular selection, so A1, A2 etc. (I wonder if these codes could be changed say to a 4 digit number to avoid people just typing a simple A1?)

Now, If you disable the or take away the labelling within the machine you (in the background) do as you say, issue the code for each customer for that selection.

I just see that you would disable the coin mechanism (because your customers would pre pay on line or by app.. this would avoid non sales when people change their mind)

The above are just thoughts but maybe could be developed.

What would you do though if a customer wants a sandwich, drink and choc bar, It wont all fit in a small compartment (although you can resize them) are you not limiting the amount of sales... so 50 staff, 20 want 3 items,,, 30 lost sales (rough figures I know)

 

[WHARTY]

Is that not already in place in the existing system. You key in the code for that particular selection, so A1, A2 etc. (I wonder if these codes could be changed say to a 4 digit number to avoid people just typing a simple A1?)

Now, If you disable the or take away the labelling within the machine you (in the background) do as you say, issue the code for each customer for that selection.

I just see that you would disable the coin mechanism (because your customers would pre pay on line or by app.. this would avoid non sales when people change their mind)

The above are just thoughts but maybe could be developed.

What would you do though if a customer wants a sandwich, drink and choc bar, It wont all fit in a small compartment (although you can resize them) are you not limiting the amount of sales... so 50 staff, 20 want 3 items,,, 30 lost sales (rough figures I know)

Yea i suppose the fundamentals are already there. I suppose you would have to make sure the codes aren't memorized by the customer though, so it would be a case of changing the coding for each compartment every day.

Quite regularly you will see the compartments holding a full size plate so no issue with putting in a Sandwich, apple and a bottle of water etc.

The beauty of the idea is that the whole product range is online to choose from the day before. Because the products are pre-ordered, you can in theory cater for all 50 staff.

I was maybe thinking of a barcode reader. You send the barcode to the customer and the machine then scans the barcode on the customers phone. The machine knows where the order is and delivers it.

The idea will cut down on waste too. Most sandwich vans guess how much stock they need and of what type they will sell in a given day.

I think businesses may be interested too as it means workers don't down tools to buy dinner and they could also get a cut of the profits from the machine.

 

[paulears]

Is it possible? Yes absolutely.
Can you do it yourself? Depends how good you are at disassembling code, analysing it and then recompiling new code.

It's not a case of buying new motherboards and hardware - it's simply programming. In most of these products, the code is written in house, for that particular model of machine - the parameters are usually held in arrays. So a competent programmer could read the existing code - by popping the eprom in a reader and having a look. It usually is fairly simple because it deals with absolute positions in x,y terms. Adding code to prevent anyone without a code accessing certain positions is possible, but it does strike me that this is data that will change as people alter their needs, and the eprom is not really the best way to store changing data. if reprogramming has to take place it will get expensive, so some kind of user data entry system will be needed, and this needs screens and alphanumeric data input - which a standard vending machine doesn't have - so it's going to need a modified hardware design to get maybe a touch screen inside. Great idea - but I reckon a very expensive one to implement.

 

[Peanut Butter Man]

So .. there you go

 

[WHARTY]

Thanks, so on to the next idea!

 

[Deggle]

I'd not be so quick to write this idea off!

I read this forum almost daily, but don't tend to write much. I thought this sounded like a good idea and was thinking through all of what I'm about to write last night, so though it only fair to share it - even if it is an essay!

My background is in electronics/engineering and software, and I have a real passion for interfacing hardware, software, internet etc. Unfortunately it's not something I get to do in my current job! If I had time, I'd offer to work with you on this one, but I really don't. Anyway...

Firstly, I think the idea is very sound. Pre-ordering (and pre-paying!) is great, and as you've identified the range you can stock is much better than a van. Especially stuff with long shelf lives - you could have 20 varieties of crisps back at the warehouse and keep everyone happy, right? Plus you can pack everything in the early hours, run round and stock everyone's machines and take the afternoon off (or perhaps spend it packing the next batch, or getting sales for further sites etc)!

Anyway - back to the main point - this is how I'd approach this problem...

I feel your original question has already started you down the wrong route to an optimum solution - in that I don't think changing the existing programming is the best plan - I'd go a slightly different route...

Firstly, get the existing vending machine into a state where entering the codes (i.e. 'A7') would simply present the compartment. I assume this is probably just a matter of putting into into 'free-vend' mode, right? Then remove the coin mech, keypad and screen (the latter two may be best re-mounted inside the door in case you need them for changing any settings etc).

Editing the ROM would be great if you were a machine code expert. It would probably allow you to change the compartment codes to 4-8 digit pins, but it wouldn't be easy to add additional hardware (like a barcode reader) that I think this project really needs. You'd have to change all the pins each day of for change of customer and that's a total pain. There may also be copyright issues with this plan. I would suggest that the vending machine manufacturer may be happy to write updated firmware for your purpose - after all, they're just after a sale of a machine, however I suspect that you're initially looking at working with second hand machines which would be a lot cheaper (I'd do exactly the same when starting up - keep costs down to prove the concept at least).

Personally, I'd take a different approach - consider develop a new custom module/circuit to operate the rest of the process (the customer interface) and then enter the codes into the keypad. I'd suggest this could be done electronically as the original keypad will probably be a matrix type (a grid of contacts that connect at the position the button is pressed - here's an example:

[Grr, had to remove image as can't post links - Google Image Search: "keypad schematic"]

I'm not 100% sure where I'd start, but the whole grid will probably work on a floating 0v or 5v, pulled up or down or something like that - it should be possible to design a very simple circuit and programming via a microcontroller that emulates entry of the codes. Simply plug your new microcontroller in instead of the current keypad and bingo, you then have control - that's the first step.

Personally I'm a .NET programmer to would initially reach for my gadgeteer kit (sorry, can't post links yet) for prototyping this, however I would expect most people would go for Arduino or even a Raspberry Pi (overkill, but cheap and gives some great upgrade options) for this purpose. All these would allow you to easily connect up a barcode reader (along with other interesting options). You can then write the programming to 'interface' with the user (barcode reader, perhaps include an LCD display, maybe another keypad or touchscreen options) - then the module simply passes the compartment code to the vending hardware to vend the correct meal. You have full control of the software, and there's so much you could do.

Here are some other ideas:

• Get some Happy Meal style boxes made up that fit the compartment perfectly. This allows you to manage meal sizes back at packing. Also, they can be labelled for the machine and compartment they go into later.
  
  
• Add a network port (if connection is available) or a GSM module to the system with a m2m SIM (cheap data only machine-to-machine SIM card), so orders/barcode/customer data can be over to the system. Could also report which meals have been taken, and even remind people to collect their meal if they've not already.
  
  
• For stocking, scan the barcode printed on the meal box and the next empty compartment is presented. The system links that compartment with the order for when the customer scans their phone. In fact - a very simple implementation could do only this:
  • Completely random barcode printed onto food box, and sent to customer.
  • Food scanned, machine presents empty compartment and links barcode to it.
  • Customer barcode scanned, linked compartment shown, barcode then forgotten.
    
• Add touchscreen and allow customers to place tomorrows orders / repeat orders from the machine itself. "Thanks for collecting your lunch Tim, same tomorrow?" - debited straight from stored card/PayPal etc!
  
  
• Fingerprint module? The number of plug ins for these microcontroller boards is endless, so there's plenty of things to consider - though probably best to keep it simple!

Hope all of that's of some help. I think there could be a good and profitable business in there if you can get the right locations (large business offices?). I'd certainly recommend you explore it further.

Cheers,

T

 

[WHARTY]

I'd not be so quick to write this idea off!

I read this forum almost daily, but don't tend to write much. I thought this sounded like a good idea and was thinking through all of what I'm about to write last night, so though it only fair to share it - even if it is an essay!

My background is in electronics/engineering and software, and I have a real passion for interfacing hardware, software, internet etc. Unfortunately it's not something I get to do in my current job! If I had time, I'd offer to work with you on this one, but I really don't. Anyway...

Firstly, I think the idea is very sound. Pre-ordering (and pre-paying!) is great, and as you've identified the range you can stock is much better than a van. Especially stuff with long shelf lives - you could have 20 varieties of crisps back at the warehouse and keep everyone happy, right? Plus you can pack everything in the early hours, run round and stock everyone's machines and take the afternoon off (or perhaps spend it packing the next batch, or getting sales for further sites etc)!

Anyway - back to the main point - this is how I'd approach this problem...

I feel your original question has already started you down the wrong route to an optimum solution - in that I don't think changing the existing programming is the best plan - I'd go a slightly different route...

Firstly, get the existing vending machine into a state where entering the codes (i.e. 'A7') would simply present the compartment. I assume this is probably just a matter of putting into into 'free-vend' mode, right? Then remove the coin mech, keypad and screen (the latter two may be best re-mounted inside the door in case you need them for changing any settings etc).

Editing the ROM would be great if you were a machine code expert. It would probably allow you to change the compartment codes to 4-8 digit pins, but it wouldn't be easy to add additional hardware (like a barcode reader) that I think this project really needs. You'd have to change all the pins each day of for change of customer and that's a total pain. There may also be copyright issues with this plan. I would suggest that the vending machine manufacturer may be happy to write updated firmware for your purpose - after all, they're just after a sale of a machine, however I suspect that you're initially looking at working with second hand machines which would be a lot cheaper (I'd do exactly the same when starting up - keep costs down to prove the concept at least).

Personally, I'd take a different approach - consider develop a new custom module/circuit to operate the rest of the process (the customer interface) and then enter the codes into the keypad. I'd suggest this could be done electronically as the original keypad will probably be a matrix type (a grid of contacts that connect at the position the button is pressed - here's an example:

[Grr, had to remove image as can't post links - Google Image Search: "keypad schematic"]

I'm not 100% sure where I'd start, but the whole grid will probably work on a floating 0v or 5v, pulled up or down or something like that - it should be possible to design a very simple circuit and programming via a microcontroller that emulates entry of the codes. Simply plug your new microcontroller in instead of the current keypad and bingo, you then have control - that's the first step.

Personally I'm a .NET programmer to would initially reach for my gadgeteer kit (sorry, can't post links yet) for prototyping this, however I would expect most people would go for Arduino or even a Raspberry Pi (overkill, but cheap and gives some great upgrade options) for this purpose. All these would allow you to easily connect up a barcode reader (along with other interesting options). You can then write the programming to 'interface' with the user (barcode reader, perhaps include an LCD display, maybe another keypad or touchscreen options) - then the module simply passes the compartment code to the vending hardware to vend the correct meal. You have full control of the software, and there's so much you could do.

Here are some other ideas:

• Get some Happy Meal style boxes made up that fit the compartment perfectly. This allows you to manage meal sizes back at packing. Also, they can be labelled for the machine and compartment they go into later.
  
  
• Add a network port (if connection is available) or a GSM module to the system with a m2m SIM (cheap data only machine-to-machine SIM card), so orders/barcode/customer data can be over to the system. Could also report which meals have been taken, and even remind people to collect their meal if they've not already.
  
  
• For stocking, scan the barcode printed on the meal box and the next empty compartment is presented. The system links that compartment with the order for when the customer scans their phone. In fact - a very simple implementation could do only this:
  • Completely random barcode printed onto food box, and sent to customer.
  • Food scanned, machine presents empty compartment and links barcode to it.
  • Customer barcode scanned, linked compartment shown, barcode then forgotten.
• Add touchscreen and allow customers to place tomorrows orders / repeat orders from the machine itself. "Thanks for collecting your lunch Tim, same tomorrow?" - debited straight from stored card/PayPal etc!
  
  
• Fingerprint module? The number of plug ins for these microcontroller boards is endless, so there's plenty of things to consider - though probably best to keep it simple!

Hope all of that's of some help. I think there could be a good and profitable business in there if you can get the right locations (large business offices?). I'd certainly recommend you explore it further.

Cheers,

T

Wow, this just made my Week!

Thanks so much, going to need a bit of time to read it through a few times though.

Yes I would only buy a second hand machine to start. What do you think the costs involved would be to get a working prototype based on what you have said above?

Is the Raspberry pi easy to learn? I have heard kids use it to learn programming?

 

[Deggle]

No worries!

I'd have thought it could be quite cheap on the electronics side - Raspberry Pi is pretty cheap, as is a barcode reader and even if any additional circuits were needed to link up to the existing keypad it would probably just be a matter of adding some digital I/O connections/ports (I don't know how many the Pi has on board, but you may need a few for a screen, barcode reader, your own keypad etc).

Cost of components - probably could be done for under £100. The real investment is the time involved in actually building it (and I include both the software, and hacking around with the machine wiring etc).

I've never touched a Pi, but I'd of thought they are quite easy to learn - as you say, kids are using them! If you have some experience with programming or electronics you'll find it really easy, if not then it's only a matter of time and reading up and working step by step. That could take a long time though, and I would say that some background understanding of electronics and programming would be advantageous - while I'm sure you could learn to program it to achieve the basic objective, someone with experience could develop a more polished (and likely better devised) system.

If it's not really your area of expertise, I'm sure you could find someone to work with - there'll be plenty of students or keen amateurs that would probably love to work on a real world project (I know I always wanted to).

 

[WHARTY]

Thanks Deggle. Ok so i don't have any experience with electronics or programming so where would i start finding somebody to do this as a project? Are there any forums or other sites i can visit to find somebody?

I have the money to buy the machine and probably the electronics so no issue there.

Not knowing the lingo (as you kind of pointed out) i wasn't able to pose my question properly when i started this thread so if i was to start looking for somebody to help with this project, how would i pose the question? I am looking for somebody to reprogramme a vending machine? or something different?

Secondly, are you sure you have no time to do this as a spare time project? I don't have any time limits.

If it's something you or somebody would be interested in then i would be interested in researching further and seeing if it would be a viable business. I have a feeling it will be disruptive to the sandwich van industry and could become very lucrative.

According to my brief research the sandwich market in the UK is worth 3.5 Billion pounds with 18% of that being the workplace and 22% being supermarket bought sandwiches.

My original vision saw me starting as above but eventually hoping Sainsburys or another supermarket would get involved.

I see them being able to offer their meal deals and then use their home delivery network to stock the machines.

I am actually getting a little excited now!

 

[Deggle]

I bet there's a number of Raspberry Pi / microcontroller development website with people who'd be happy to share knowledge, and if you're lucky you may find someone local to you who's looking for a project.

What you're looking for is a microcontroller circuit that can control / replace the keypad on a vending machine to pass it key-presses based on a custom concept for vending via barcodes.

For a forum post title, perhaps use something like this:
Looking to develop barcode based controller to interface with vending machine.

Once you've got control of the vending, then the rest of the brief is really just down to how you want it all to work. The main aspects you need to think about are:

• How the customer places their order (online via website I guess).
• How the customer collects their order (barcode is a good idea, but a keypad would work too).
• How the machine is filled (and how orders are linked to the containers they are put into).
• Likely many other parts of the process.

You need to sit down and write up a 'use case' (like a list of steps) from each users point of view (customer, machine filler, perhaps order packer). It's also important to remember it's not just the vending aspect, you've got all the ecommerce side to do too - ordering, payments, automated sending of barcodes etc, customer accounts etc.

It really is a huge project when you take everything into account. Due to the engineer in me, I try to over automate, so the initial offering could probably be much simplified by manually doing a lot of the stages (i.e. using simple off the shelf ecommerce platform and manually printing barcodes and labels etc, where as I'd choose to write it all from the ground up and automate everything).

Perhaps simplify the vending by using the simple barcode matching method I explained before.

Expanding on that:

1. You scan an 'admin' barcode to put machine into setup mode.
2. Perhaps have another 'special' barcode to empty out all uncollected meals.
3. Scan new barcode (these would be random, unique barcodes also sent to customer).
4. Vending machine presents empty slot and links to the barcode.
5. Repeat from 3 until all meals are loaded.
6. Repeat from 1 the next day.

This would be simpler to make with a Raspberry Pi or similar, and would be good to get started. No connectivity to worry about, not a lot of interfacing, just the keypad interface and a barcode reader to make the above work.

In the sandwich van niche, I agree it is disruptive - however you could potentially sell the idea to existing van operators. Perhaps they pay for (rent) the machine, and to be listed on the website and they pack and fill the machines and take a cut (or, they just set their own prices for products, and you take a cut). There's plenty of models, and I do think it could work. Working with supermarkets could be good too - they are really pushing for the click-and-collect model at the moment, and do have the delivery network, so there's certainly potential. My concern would be that there are already click and collect style vending (like the lockers type of thing), so all you're adding is refrigeration (I assume) and more convenience in that it's in the workplace - then again, that's quite a differentiation. It really depends if you can get them out there, and if people want to use them. Have you done any market research?

I'm so busy with my current business (which is rather profitable, so I really have to commit my time to it) that I literally have so little time. It's a shame though, as this is right up my alley - from the electronics to the web design, I'm very much a jack of all the trades you need (and I'd like to think a master of a couple of them, maybe)!

Have you thought about approaching a vending machine company? While they may try and steal the idea (though it's public now I'm afraid), they'd probably be keen to work with you on something that could sell more machines - look for a company that is more about the engineering, and not the supply of the products, as I suspect they'll be keener to work with you.

I'll PM you my email, so you can keep me in the loop outside of the forum if you wish. I can't promise to always write such detailed replies though, I happen to be have a very rare quite morning!

Cheers,

Tim

 

[joe-jen12]

I have programmed a simple barcode generator/scanner system using Raspberry PI and Web programming languages.
Ever heard of Amazon lockers? It was pretty much that.
Would be interested to see if I could be of assistance?

 

[IanG]

The idea has got legs but re-programming an existing machine sounds like a world of pain.

What scenarios are you hoping to address with regards availability of the specific sandwiches? Because someone will still need to fill the machine based on the order. If you're doing that you may as well just arrive later and give the product directly to the customer.

Unless you want to take advantage of the storage to be able to deliver to more places. Question for me is whether the company would be happy to buy/rent/run an expensive machine just to help you out in being in more places at once.

 

[WHARTY]

The idea has got legs but re-programming an existing machine sounds like a world of pain.

What scenarios are you hoping to address with regards availability of the specific sandwiches? Because someone will still need to fill the machine based on the order. If you're doing that you may as well just arrive later and give the product directly to the customer.

Unless you want to take advantage of the storage to be able to deliver to more places. Question for me is whether the company would be happy to buy/rent/run an expensive machine just to help you out in being in more places at once.

Well it's all theoretical at the moment because I haven't done any research.

It started a few years ago when I built a Glow stick vending machine. One of the main problems i had was the fact that most of the sales were seasonal. They were located in holiday parks, Tenpin bowling alleys and night clubs.

During the summer the Glowsticks sold well in Butlins but obviously not well in the winter months.
The Glowsticks also did ok in Tenpin during the winter months as more people are inside for leisure activities.

My thinking was i needed to generate more sales for the machines but not rely soley on the footfall in the venue.

All vending machines rely on sales from people walking past so i decided that it would be a good idea if i could connect the machines to a website and generate further sales from the machines via the Web.

So my thinking was a "Click and Collect" vending machine and my advantage being that my machines had a minimum of two revenue streams as opposed to one for all other machines.

So this has got me thinking about Click and collect and what products could do well using this method and one of those products was Sandwiches.

I like the fact that i can go to Tenpin and say "Hey if i put my Glowstick machine in your venue, i can get people to walk in to your venue and you can offer a BOGOF offer! Tenpin for example get to cross sell their own product to people who wouldn't normally come to the venue.

So Sandwiches. Well one major advantage i can offer the company is that they will get a share of the revenue the employees spend on their lunch, something the sandwich van doesn't offer.
Also, the company doesn't lose out on productivity when workers down tools to go and buy lunch when the "butty" van comes. Some companies allow a break to cater for the van coming at a certain time but what happens when the van is late?

A lot of the time the van doesn't have what you want because it has sold out on the previous sites.

The sandwich van also has to "guess" their sales for the day, thus having to increase prices to cater for waste.

The van also has to pay for a member of staff, servicing and MOT, insurance and breakdowns.

I thought i could link up with a few local sandwich manufacturers and offer a greater range for my customers. Simply ask them to make a few more when i have the orders in from the website. Saves me getting my own premises!

I would still need one van to collect from manufacturers and to deliver to the machines but that's ok.
I could do the deliveries in the mornings from say 3am and as long as i can do it by 11:45 then everything is good.

Like i said it's all theory and guesswork.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Couldn't you just use the current way that schools are using ID cards?

What I mean is, currently the Mi-fare card readers that they're using are also a way of carrying pre-ordered school meals - Parents can put a value onto the card by ringing the school and making a payment then the kid can swipe the doors to let them into classrooms and once it's lunch time they can go to the dining hall and present the card to the reader and the staff can see how much they have available on the card - then remove the amount that they've spent that day via a PC.

The system is already there, it's just not being used in the same way that Wharty wants... i.e. with a vending machine... in fact I reckon if you look deeper it may actually be already in schools... Hmm... I'll have a look for you!

 

[DazRave]

i liked this idea at first.. then I started to think about a project myself and the team i'm on started late last year during down time between contracts.

I'll try and keep this in a nutshell:

We're a team of 5 in a company of 70. A few doors down is a sandwich shop and thursdays is our traditional bacon day whereby our resident bacon master (just some guy from another team who doesn't mind doing it) sends out a bacon related joke or photo in the morning with a Menu... and we all reply and take money down to him. He'll then ring up the store, order the food and they ring him back when it's ready (we're talking about 40% of the company averagely do this every thursday). He'd pay and collect the order, which is usually grouped in bags 'per floor' then each sandwich labelled with names... and drop them off. We're all colleagues here, i don't take someone elses sandwich if it's sitting there in the bag still.

So, as a bit of a joke but mainly a learning curve for our team, we built "the baconizer", a website and android app which, on a thursday, allowed the staff to build there bacon sandwich, it could take paypal payments and it emailed the order to the sandwich store. We never got around to actually launching the app... but it certainly worked and worked well.

So..... comparing it to your idea, i think the above baconizer is cheaper, faster and probably less hassle than an on site vending machine for two reasons. Firstly, I go to a vending machine because I want a snack or sandwich there and then, that's what they are designed for. Secondly, with an app based solution, you could take the route Dominoes Pizza has done and keep customers updated, tracking their lunch and even notifying them when it has arrived.... in a box with their name on it, at reception.

The concept of bringing technology to workers on their lunch break is great, i just don't see the need of adding a middle man vending machine to do it.


Sorry if this is disappointing to hear @WHARTY !

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&q=school smart card vending machines&f=false

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

http://www.systopia.co.uk/products/products-cashless-vending-interface/

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Basically, they can be programmed to do whatever you want it to do - i.e. if your customer has pre-ordered a sandwich from your machine as soon as they insert their card their order will be delivered and nothing else.

That way, all you have to do is load the machine in the morning to the appropriate order/card/segment and no one can remove anything other than what they've already ordered...

Hope you get what I mean with this...

 

[WHARTY]

Hey guys i will keep this short and reply in full later as i am nipping out for a few hours. Daz, no you haven't disappointed me mate because i don't agree with you lol!

Haunted Worlds, thanks for the info, i have seen these before in large distribution centres such Sainsburys and Tesco but hadn't realised you could Pre-order!

I am going think a bit more about it as i had a thought earlier about the Graze.com business model. Whereby you have a subscription and they deliver nuts etc to your door. I thought it may work for the machines.

Thanks.

 

[Deggle]

I think some of the replies are missing the point to some extent...

• Haunted Worlds: Yes, RFID vending is certainly nothing new and is already being done. But this is simply an alternate payment method - i.e. really all that's changed is swapping the coin mech for a RFID reader. You want to avoid having to issue the user with a card (save for regulars/subscribers perhaps) - the barcode to a mobile is a great idea as it can be a one off or for regular users.
  
  
• DazRave: Agreed, some people will prefer to pop to the van. Especially as this model doesn't really work for hot food (it could, kind of for some things like a pasty, but not very well*). However, many people do have cold lunches (sandwich, crisps and drink) and ordering your selection the day before, or a week in advance, or a subscription etc. does make a lot of sense.

* one of my staff used to work in the food industry, at a competitor to Rustlers (the microwave burgers). One of the things they were looking at was using vending machines with internal microwaves to produce hot meals (usually the burger buns don't get cooked, so that was a challenge). Anyway, hot food can be done - though actually, it's probably just as easy to have someone order a microwave item, supply chilled and they can use their work microwave.

Regarding the vending - this can be done. Clearly the technology, while tricky to develop from scratch (with second hand bits and little experience) it's not rocket science, it's very possible.

Really, the next step is to really look into the business model. If a machine does 50 lunches, and is operated at 50% capacity each day - what's the margins, is the business going to make enough to want to site the machine, are you making enough to cover the cost of the machine... what about 20%? How will you market it? What are the real development costs (website, card payments) etc etc... these are probably the questions to be exploring.

I think the point this may come unstuck is the pricing and margins. But then again, that's where supermarkets could come in - meal deal + 50p local pickup costs could be a winner. If you can site a machine somewhere where it's use is >90% that could well be profitable.

T

 

[japancool]

All you're really talking about here is a method of storing the food until the person who ordered it comes to collect.

Why go to all the trouble to build a vending machine? Why not just do a deal with a nearby shop which will already has the cold storage facilities, where the purchaser can simply drop by and collect?

 

[japancool]

If you're considering the issue of a machine that has seasonal sales, in Japan, the drinks machines dispense cold drinks during summer, and hot and cold drinks during winter. As for hot meals, self-heating packaging also exists.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

I think some of the replies are missing the point to some extent...

• Haunted Worlds: Yes, RFID vending is certainly nothing new and is already being done. But this is simply an alternate payment method - i.e. really all that's changed is swapping the coin mech for a RFID reader. You want to avoid having to issue the user with a card (save for regulars/subscribers perhaps) - the barcode to a mobile is a great idea as it can be a one off or for regular users.

Sorry, but I disagree, why would he want to avoid issuing the user with a card? He could use this as an advertising product - company details and contact number/email for instance, that way he's got more chance of getting more people interested in using the facility rather than ignoring it or wondering what on earth it is...

The point I've made is that the person issued with the card can pay online via the likes of Paypal, this will then hold a slot that Wharty wants that persons meal to be vended from, he'll go in early morning with the orders fill up the machine and then once the person inserts their card only their order drops - which is exactly what Wharty wanted to know if it could be done...[/quote]

 

[WHARTY]

Sorry, but I disagree, why would he want to avoid issuing the user with a card? He could use this as an advertising product - company details and contact number/email for instance, that way he's got more chance of getting more people interested in using the facility rather than ignoring it or wondering what on earth it is...

The point I've made is that the person issued with the card can pay online via the likes of Paypal, this will then hold a slot that Wharty wants that persons meal to be vended from, he'll go in early morning with the orders fill up the machine and then once the person inserts their card only their order drops - which is exactly what Wharty wanted to know if it could be done...

[/QUOTE]

Hi Haunted i think your idea is fine, however you limit the chances of getting an impulse sale by needing the card. Having the card means buying the cards and then sending them in the post which is just added expense when you can simply use a barcode and pin number on your phone.

By having the Barcode and pin anybody can place an order at anytime without waiting a few days for the card to arrive.

What happens when you lose the card? again your waiting days for a replacement.

As long as you have your phone and an account with us then you will always be able to get a meal.

 

[DazRave]

I still don't quite understand where these machines would operate and who would use them?

I buy a boots meal deal at least twice a week, and sometimes i take quite a late lunch and find myself without much to choose from... so reserving food in theory is a good idea, but using a machine to do it seems a little bit overkill to me? Shops have been using click and collect for years, why can't it just work the same way?

 

[NickGrogan]

If I am going to order my lunch a day ahead, why not order from "the Van", if they know I want it, they'll bring it along with everything else.

If I can order the same day, lets say before 10am, this gives you a very tight time schedule to collect and fill the machines at several offices.

Where is the value in using a vending machine?

 

[DazRave]

I am going think a bit more about it as i had a thought earlier about the Graze.com business model. Whereby you have a subscription and they deliver nuts etc to your door. I thought it may work for the machines.
Thanks.

But again, they deliver to your work or home address' door? So again, where do the machines fit in?

You're doing this the wrong way around, you have what you think is a solution but don't know what the problem is yet.

 

[WHARTY]

I still don't quite understand where these machines would operate and who would use them?

I buy a boots meal deal at least twice a week, and sometimes i take quite a late lunch and find myself without much to choose from... so reserving food in theory is a good idea, but using a machine to do it seems a little bit overkill to me? Shops have been using click and collect for years, why can't it just work the same way?

But again, they deliver to your work or home address' door? So again, where do the machines fit in?

You're doing this the wrong way around, you have what you think is a solution but don't know what the problem is yet.

What was the problem that Graze solved?

I don't think I am trying to solve a problem, it's just another option for customers to use.

You're at home and it's 9pm on Sunday night, you realise you have nothing for lunch for work tomorrow. Your choice is to pick something up on the way in to work (which may mean leaving 10 or 15 minutes earlier), going out on your lunch break to get something (why spend 20 minutes of your break queuing for lunch) or using a sandwich van (again wasting time standing in line for your lunch) all of these options (apart from buying in the morning) mean that it's likely you wont get your first choice as it's already been taken by somebody else.

Why not just grab your phone, open the app and choose your lunch for the next day? It would take 20 seconds to do if you have a favorite meal on the app?

Yes you can ask the sandwich van to bring something to you if you reserve it but they can't do it for everyone, they just don't have the space in the van, they need that space to display the products they are selling.

The other issue with the vans is that the customers can often be irregular so the van never knows 100% what stock to carry around and they quite often are owed money by customers who open tabs and take weeks to pay. Because the customers are sporadic it means there is a lot of waste.

The food can't be out of a chilled environment for more than 4 hours from what i understand. So unless the van is completely chilled then the van only has 4 hours to sell as much as it can.

Nothing worse than buying your lunch at 9am and come lunchtime your yoghurt, fruit salad or sandwich has gone warm. At least it stays chilled in the machine.

The sandwiches can stay in the machine for up to 3 days if need be. If a customer hasn't picked the lunch up from the machine i still have time to sell the product to the natural footfall at the site.

Maybe it is overkill to spend on vending machines to do this job but isn't spending 10-20k on a sandwich van the same? Not to mention paying somebody to drive the van, tax it and insure it?

One other USP that the business itself may be interested in, is the fact i can offer a share of the revenue the machines generate,unlike the vans.

I appreciate all of your comments but i still think there is something in this. I never thought there would be a business for graze but there is so i really don't see why this couldn't work.

 

[NickGrogan]

Maybe it is overkill to spend on vending machines to do this job but isn't spending 10-20k on a sandwich van the same? Not to mention paying somebody to drive the van, tax it and insure it?

One other USP that the business itself may be interested in, is the fact i can offer a share of the revenue the machines generate,unlike the vans.

But you would still need a van to deliver to the machines, and a driver, insurance, etc. The vending machine is an additional cost.

Not sure about your USP either - some vans pay backhanders already, not sure a more formal arrangement is going to be attractive, plus you are passing a cost and risk onto the business.

 

[WHARTY]

But you would still need a van to deliver to the machines, and a driver, insurance, etc. The vending machine is an additional cost.

Not sure about your USP either - some vans pay backhanders already, not sure a more formal arrangement is going to be attractive, plus you are passing a cost and risk onto the business.

Yes you would still need a van but it would more likely be a chilled 7.5t vehicle capable of carrying 10 times that of a sandwich van and be able to deliver over 12 hours as opposed to 4.

The cost of running the machines would be paid back surely by the sales? Maybe there are backhanders going on but it wont be everywhere. Where is the risk to the business? they don't buy the machines they simply let me site them and i give them a revenue share.

Thanks for your reply though.

 

[NickGrogan]

deliver over 12 hours. How can you do this?

If the food is stored on site and the refrigeration fails or there is another issue, who is responsible for the food poisoning? Sandwiches have a much shorter shelf life than crisps or coke.

You might want to take a look at this too.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/vfoodmanual/vfood5160.htm

"You will only need to consider the implications of where a machine is sited... Essentially, you must decide whether a supply of cold food, such as sandwiches, is to be eaten on the premises on which it is to be supplied, in which case it is standard-rated, or is to be taken off the premises to be eaten, in which case it is zero-rated."

This could add 20% to all your prices. Sorry.

 

[Newchodge]

As an ex-office worker, the problem with the butty vans was the time they came round. Ideally I would want to pick up my lunch when I want to eat it, but the vans had to cover several sites so started to come round at 10.00 - 10.30, which meant I had to use the office fridge, which may not have capacity and risks some other thieving colleague taking it .

A properly run vending machine solves these issues, and the advance ordering means you get what you wanted. Down side may mean you don't get impulse buyers, but there may be a way round that.

 

[WHARTY]

deliver over 12 hours. How can you do this?

If the food is stored on site and the refrigeration fails or there is another issue, who is responsible for the food poisoning? Sandwiches have a much shorter shelf life than crisps or coke.

You might want to take a look at this too.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/vfoodmanual/vfood5160.htm

"You will only need to consider the implications of where a machine is sited... Essentially, you must decide whether a supply of cold food, such as sandwiches, is to be eaten on the premises on which it is to be supplied, in which case it is standard-rated, or is to be taken off the premises to be eaten, in which case it is zero-rated."

This could add 20% to all your prices. Sorry.

Don't be sorry that's fine, i value opinions on this site and i appreciate the fact you found this information.

If i am honest i was expecting to pay VAT and was assuming the sandwich vans would too?

Do the sandwich vans pay standard rate? surely the food they sell is to be eaten on the premises?

With regards to breakdowns, well, these things happen but the machines are capable of monitoring temperature and shutting down if there is a problem. I am sure the machines that currently sell sandwiches deal with these problems anyway.

The sandwiches wouldn't go past their best before or use by as we would deliver and collect from the machines on a daily basis anyway.

 

[WHARTY]

As an ex-office worker, the problem with the butty vans was the time they came round. Ideally I would want to pick up my lunch when I want to eat it, but the vans had to cover several sites so started to come round at 10.00 - 10.30, which meant I had to use the office fridge, which may not have capacity and risks some other thieving colleague taking it .

A properly run vending machine solves these issues, and the advance ordering means you get what you wanted. Down side may mean you don't get impulse buyers, but there may be a way round that.

Thanks. The impulse buyers could buy products that haven't been collected (at a reduced rate) and are still within date? I don't know to be honest but with it being a workplace environment i am pretty sure if it caught on you wouldn't really need to worry about the impulse buyers.