Is it ok to buy links?

[cardinal]

Whats the best way to market an online company. Quite new to marketing, but looking to market http://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/new_cars.jhtml for a friend.

 

[FireFleur]

I don't think it is a sin to buy links, but how effective that is the grand scheme of things is hard to say.

There are lots of ways to promote sites online, just have a wander around and see what is out there. What you are looking for is relevancy, and the main portals and hubs of congregation for whatever market segment you are aiming for.

Then if you can provide content in some way, that helps that site and allows you to promote what you are offering then it should be a win win.

 

[DanHarrison]

Generally speaking, buying links is bad. This is because Google actively seeks out websites buying links in return for manipulating search engine rankings. If you buy links to your site, you stand a very high risk of getting penalised (i.e. damaged in rankings).

You probably want to start with Google Adwords to test out which keywords get you hits/sales. When you work out which keywords work, you might want to think about getting links to the site using those successful keywords. Getting backlinks is a whole new ballgame of its own.

Dan

 

[i3SearchWorx]

The question here is...should you HAVE to buy links? The answer is, no. I keep stressing that content is what builds links. As long as you write content for people to engage with, the natural links will follow. Sure, approach webmasters and sell the VALUE of them linking in with your site - I.E what you can offer their websites visitors that they don't offer, hence offering visitors to that site a rounded experience.

Write good content, network through social media and use the old fashioned method of contacting web masters individually and selling them the benefit of linking into your site, the link profile will follow and believe me, it will be a bloody good one if done properly.

 

[scothost]

^^ Exactly, unique content is king!

 

Depends where and who you buy the links off.

Bad news if the search engines catch your site doing it.

Earl

 

[weareable]

NO!!! I found this out the hard way.
To shorten a long story, I had built up a site that was making about £1000 a month selling humor related products. The site was getting about 1500 uv's a day. I found a huge site that was offering paid text links and I jumped right in. Within two months my site took a nose dive.
I put this down to buying the links.
I decided to contact the other sites that had bought links from this site and without exeption all who got back to me had noticed an 80% drop in google traffic as did the site that was selling the links.

 

[petera]

It really depends how you play the game.
Paying someone to let you guest blog is less likely to be discovered. You are providing relevant content that just happens to contain a link to your site.
Paying for links in a blog's sidebar or the footer of a website is not a great idea. This is the kind of link buying that is more likely to be penalised.

 

[WaterCoolersDirect]

I agree with the valuable content feedback here.... to attempt to manipulate the search engines by purchasing links is generally a poor alternative to the long term effort involved with adding quality information about your business, products and the wider choices available to the searchers/potential customers.

Look to add value at every turn without condition and you wont go far wrong.

All the best and good luck

Fred Cairns Palmer

 

[AndyMyers]

What natural promotion have you been doing so far? Is your content on point?

You will develop natural links from great content but you will still need to actively market this content to make sure as many eyeballs as possible land on your web pages, both from search engines and referral traffic.

Andy

 

[I, Brian]

The question of whether it's a good idea to "buy links" completely overlooks the fundamental problem in the first place - of developing a natural link profile.

While buying links may seem like an easy option, the truth of the matter is that Google have been fighting this cause for at least 7 years now, and have gotten pretty good at recognising and devaluing common paid link formats.

Also, you tend to have to be very aggressive at link building to gain a penalty - usually from people going out and buying the highest PR links they can. If there's one thing Google have always been very strict about, it's a zero-tolerance to PR buying.

Otherwise, what tends to happen is that once a website is flagged a selling links, it no longer passes link juice.

The milder scenario is that the site still shows toolbar PR on its pages, the site is indexed, the link remains, the money keeps being paid - but all to no effect.

Larger scale networks can undergo complete deindexing though.

I keep stressing that content is what builds links.

^^ Exactly, unique content is king!

I personally find the "content is king" mantra extremely naive - mainstream SEO was saying that back in 2003, and thought links didn't matter in the first place anyway.

Besides, you aren't going to "content" you way into "loans" or "mortgages". You can try, but it's not likely to succeed because the competition are more aggressively out-competing you on links alone.

Even in niche area, the trouble is, the web is so hugely flooded with information that if people can't find your information in the first place, they can't link to it - even if they do find it and find it useful, most will not link to it anyway.

Here's a nice reference from a couple of years back:
http://www.e-marketing-news.co.uk/Oct04/RichLinking.html

You should consider link building as a communications strategy, though - think about your target market and try and reach them directly. Links should develop as a natural part of your driving that conversation.

Content-driven link building is extremely difficult to pull off - so you need to think very carefully about that strategy in the first place.

2c.

 

[sherry_d]

Great content alone will NOT get you higher rankings thats just a fact. With many site on the net why do you think any webmaster will want to give you a link.

Google values backlinks, just check any high ranking site and you'll see a lot of them from big boys like moneysupermarket buy links excessively and yes having the right anchor text helps

Its how you buy the links, doing it the old fashioned way of buying on links from site that blantly advertise like text link ads will just get you penalised. there are many ways of buying links more discretly like through blog posts and a recent phenenomena of profile links.

Can anyone show me a site which does well on competetive terms simply on good old fashioned content. Unless you're Martin lewis of the moneysavingexperts. But then again he has a massive PR machine and gets highly valuable links from the press. On page optimisation is great BUT it wont cut it for competetive keywords.

Getting backlinks is core for seo and the choice is yours of how you get it weather its free or paid, just dont buy them from link farms like directories and sites that blatantly sell these

 

[eventdomain]

Google have been fighting this cause for at least 7 years now, and have gotten pretty good at recognising and devaluing common paid link formats.

Companies will keep buying links/adverts bcos they depend on them to draw in visitors - no visitors then no sales! No sales and the business goes down, and that's not good, nor will any company do that to itself.

The other thing thats stupid is everyone voting by giving away free links - but this doesn't make sense, as nobody gives their webspace away for free, and with the obvious value of webpages (never mind Homepages), their worth thousands in ad fees, so the free link idea fails.... It doesn't work anymore bcos people will always favour selling webspace over exchanging links.

Free weblinks swapping all stopped years ago in 2003/4 - that's 6 years ago people! There's no choice but to buy paid advertising and links - no choice or see your business melt off the web.

 

[brucegao]

i recommend buying links is not a good way.the content is the most important thing for seo.

 

[this charming manc]

Thats a really good answer but it is a long burn solution.

Some markets are too competitive for those kind of tactics to work effectivley.

The question here is...should you HAVE to buy links? The answer is, no. I keep stressing that content is what builds links. As long as you write content for people to engage with, the natural links will follow. Sure, approach webmasters and sell the VALUE of them linking in with your site - I.E what you can offer their websites visitors that they don't offer, hence offering visitors to that site a rounded experience.

Write good content, network through social media and use the old fashioned method of contacting web masters individually and selling them the benefit of linking into your site, the link profile will follow and believe me, it will be a bloody good one if done properly.

 

[this charming manc]

Sherry I tend to agree with you on many points, but you seemed ot of missed the basic thrust of the content first arguement.

That is that great content builds backlinks, thats not on page optimisation, it is doing somethign worthy of links.

Great content alone will NOT get you higher rankings thats just a fact. With many site on the net why do you think any webmaster will want to give you a link.

Google values backlinks, just check any high ranking site and you'll see a lot of them from big boys like moneysupermarket buy links excessively and yes having the right anchor text helps

Its how you buy the links, doing it the old fashioned way of buying on links from site that blantly advertise like text link ads will just get you penalised. there are many ways of buying links more discretly like through blog posts and a recent phenenomena of profile links.

Can anyone show me a site which does well on competetive terms simply on good old fashioned content. Unless you're Martin lewis of the moneysavingexperts. But then again he has a massive PR machine and gets highly valuable links from the press. On page optimisation is great BUT it wont cut it for competetive keywords.

Getting backlinks is core for seo and the choice is yours of how you get it weather its free or paid, just dont buy them from link farms like directories and sites that blatantly sell these

 

[eventdomain]

That is that great content builds backlinks

All very well, but people don't realise that most websites are NOT content based eg: they don't and aren't built to hoard pages of text to SEO - that's not their model, so cannot drive visitors that way.

The content thing works for very few sites, as most sites are advert platforms or product based eg: LingsCars, ok it lists of best buys, but its not drowned in text and wouldn't work that way, so this whole 'fill it up with text' thing wouldn't work and probably destroy the look of websites, it doesn't work. And the people that suggest it, don't know what their on about - it fails too easily if you get the content thing wrong - and many do!

Its okay to buy links, just don't buy untargeted stuff - Google likes relevant links. Any old link is NOT good though.

 

[Jonathanlouis]

Content relevant and carefully constructed according to the rules Google looks after to judge page's relevance to search are what does it for you.

Links that are non competitive and relevant will do it for you on points.

Get a program that searches and publicizes your site's content and relevance for other complementary linkers and there you have it. Value Exchange does this perfectly and the program it is contained in has the best keyword strategist software on the market.

That it also contains the best way to create and build traffic generation sites is an added bonus. Oh, the price? around £155 a year and they are offering one extra for free

What better Christmas present.......

Go play.....

Jonathan

 

[Jonathanlouis]

All very well, but people don't realise that most websites are NOT content based eg: they don't and aren't built to hoard pages of text to SEO - that's not their model, so cannot drive visitors that way.

With the greatest respect to this comment, there are two responses.

First one is that most people have little or no idea of how to optimize a site with content or without content. So much importance is put into the look and feel and jazzy appeal that the original intention is lost.

What is that ? to cultivate business

Second response is to realise the best way to get traffic IS relevant content.

Now if that cannot be done for artistic or corporate look reasons, then go satellite.

What do I mean?

Cretae one two or however many you need, sites that ARE content driven and all the main links are pointing to the master site - the raison d'etre for being web present. The rest point to affiliate driven complementary links

These sites are the traffic engines and will deliver top quality pre qualified visitors to your destination.

Worth every last penny you spend on however many sites you create. Costly? absolutely not....

Know how to do it?

Yes - good, get on and do it

No - call me and I shall show you exactly how (shameless plug)

It is too easy a solution to afford to miss it - 0117 230 3505 - you owe it to your great site that lies presently silent in the void of cyber space.

Jonathan

 

[eventdomain]

First one is that most people have little or no idea of how to optimize a site with content or without content. So much importance is put into the look and feel and jazzy appeal that the original intention is lost.

What is that ? to cultivate business

The kind of companies that utilize the 'corporate look' have millions at their disposal, so they can afford to test and re-test what works and what doesn't - the majority of others cannot! This is NOT an option for the below-average biz

There's little wrong with jazz on a website, and SEO is not the 'be all' and 'end all' of all senarios - the basic biz idea is probably wrong from the start. There's more to a website than mere content or SEO, the written word is overused and tiresome method, and to fill a site with articles or other tired old methods, that will likely clash with content already available elsewhere, is asking for trouble and solves nothing, except to get banned from Google.

Create one two or however many you need, sites that ARE content driven and all the main links are pointing to the master site

For one thing, this sounds very dodgy - you are suggesting the creation of multiple micro-sites, stuffed with links and keywords? - If you are, then
oh boy, this is asking for trouble....

If you're talking about creating a truly fantastic resource, then I feel you don't know what it takes to put together a quality resource, no idea of costs, time involved or effort. The time alone would put most off the idea, and the costs, well - er, if you knew, then you wouldn't be suggesting the multiple building of sites in the first place... It wouldn't be possible to do, the costs would be crazy to do this properly, and many just don't have the cash, nor the time to do what you suggest.

Nice idea, if its on the level, but impractical and financial suicide for most.

 

[Jonathanlouis]

Firstly SEO is important - as is good informative content that answers the visitors initial 'why they came there' is essential.

Fill the pages with rubbish and clever keyword filled blocks is madness I agree and have never suggested such poor tactics. A website that works for someone who has a business or financial interest in cultivating a going venture is one that answers the questions visitors Google for.

Knowing those keywords in advance heightens the relevance and placement. That is why it is important to target pages to appropriate keyword requests. There is a distinct methodology in doing this and one that Google bots celebrate when they find it. Unless you know of the methodology do not imply that this is not correct.

I work with this system daily - I know what I am talking about.

I know hundreds of "little people/businesses" that beat the big boys hands down and have paid only a couple of hundred dollars for the way to do it.

You just have to have the kit that accomplishes it and the know how to achieve it. Because it is such a refined way even dummies can do it with what we use - and do, so who is the dummy?

Secondly it may sound dodgy to you as you seem to little idea what this entails and to suggests that I do not know what I am doing

"then I feel you don't know what it takes to put together a quality resource"

is an assumption and wrong in every sense. I build successful sites this way and I know after 10 years doing so, precisely what I am talking about.

Whatever you may imagine that it takes to do one or two sites in this way, you simply do not understand where I am coming from.

Creating a site that grows organically and creates a growing traffic feed and a site that Google rewards with 1st page placement is an art and a skill. Thousands of people are testament to that. No black arts are used. In fact we follow Googles oft changing alogrithms to the tee. Our cutting edge industry leading technology is as good as it can get in keeping pace with the changing interfaces

Outside of the hours of adding content and building sites, a few hundred pounds is all it takes.

There is a lot of cock and bull out there that says it is easy to build and be seen.

It only is when you are in possession of the tools to achieve that. I use these tools and am one of tens of thousands. It works

What does not work is people commenting on sites as these that someone is to all intents and purposes talking out of their backside.

It is one reason why I frequent these forums less and less.

The lack of quality interaction makes this pretty much a waste of time.

Seeing the amount of posts that some people place and wondering whether they have nothing much better to do makes me wonder how much people actually benefit from constructive exchange as opposed to posturing and strutting their corner.

I'm off I have better things to do

Jonathan

 

With the greatest respect to this comment, there are two responses.

First one is that most people have little or no idea of how to optimize a site with content or without content. So much importance is put into the look and feel and jazzy appeal that the original intention is lost.

What is that ? to cultivate business

Second response is to realise the best way to get traffic IS relevant content.

Now if that cannot be done for artistic or corporate look reasons, then go satellite.

What do I mean?

Cretae one two or however many you need, sites that ARE content driven and all the main links are pointing to the master site - the raison d'etre for being web present. The rest point to affiliate driven complementary links

These sites are the traffic engines and will deliver top quality pre qualified visitors to your destination.

Worth every last penny you spend on however many sites you create. Costly? absolutely not....

Know how to do it?

Yes - good, get on and do it

No - call me and I shall show you exactly how (shameless plug)

It is too easy a solution to afford to miss it - 0117 230 3505 - you owe it to your great site that lies presently silent in the void of cyber space.

Jonathan

Having a bit of a problem finding your site on google.

Bit surprised at that.:|

Earl

 

[Jonathanlouis]

Maybe because I have not mentioned my site - duh!

 

Maybe because I have not mentioned my site - duh!

Would be nice to see how successfull your method is.

Earl

 

[Jonathanlouis]

This ought to give you an idea of how many of the people are doing

http://tinyurl.com/ybcnd7f

Template or WYSIWYG both work fine

Jonathan

 

[Inside Wholesale]

Buying links can be a quick way to get high on google, but overall google loves permenant links, the links you would buy wouldnt be there for long and would be from sites that have nothing to do with your own, unique content outweighs irrelevant backlinks every time.

 

This ought to give you an idea of how many of the people are doing

http://tinyurl.com/ybcnd7f

Template or WYSIWYG both work fine

Jonathan

Bit confused as to how this would help people get sales.?

Earl

 

[Andycal]

NO!!! I found this out the hard way.
To shorten a long story, I had built up a site that was making about £1000 a month selling humor related products. The site was getting about 1500 uv's a day. I found a huge site that was offering paid text links and I jumped right in. Within two months my site took a nose dive.
I put this down to buying the links.
I decided to contact the other sites that had bought links from this site and without exeption all who got back to me had noticed an 80% drop in google traffic as did the site that was selling the links.

Really? Any chance you could share the URL of this link-building site, I'd like to buy some to point at my competitors...

I would place a very large bet on the fact that Google *does not penalise* for back links, no matter where they are from. If there was a method of link building that actually caused sites to drop in rankings, I'd spend my time doing that, not building links to make sites go up. Watching competitors go down in the rankings would be much more fun.

The most that can happen is your links can be ignored, so if you built traffic on bad links and then they were disregarded then you could see a drop in traffic, but bad links on a good site can't do damage, surely?

 

[Jonathanlouis]

Bit confused as to how this would help people get sales.?

Earl

Create a site that is specific to the niche.

Brainstorm keywords that are searched for that niche, filter the main most profitable(most people asking/least sites using) keywords to that niche - for starters the top 20 most profitable, then build a page round each keyword à la Google preference for weight and relevance(all automatically looked after for you).
Choose site name from the best keywords or one keyword - i.e best home insulation solutions.com, carperformancetips.com, healthyjuicingideas.com - and then build second tier pages around each of other keywords with links off to your main sales site, other affiliate sites et al and that drives the traffic attracted to your satellite site through its high relevance, informative content to where you want them to go. (Please note these individual pages are content rich must make sense and in good prose, written as an information source. Written in a personal style talks one to one with the visitor and engages them much more than just technical spec, boring geek stuff)

They arrive on your sales site pre-qualified, ready to buy, opt in and interact with you (now a trusted expert, someone who has over-delivered to the original query and thus is not just one of those hopeless link farms and other nonsense that for a brief period hit to top of Google.

You become a trusted known solutions expert able to to solve problems and inspire new ideas and thus are recommended by word of mouth as well. A healthy informative Newsletter, blog that they have subscribed to carries on and builds the relationship.

An exemplar of this modality is this UK site that has beaten many of the big boys into the sand with his XP help site and done extremely well on a shoestring and intelligent web site development.

http://www.updatexp.com/ Marc's site has a current Alexa rating of around 68,000. Getting in the top 100K out of 80 million and that means Traffic - and valuable potential sales customers.

That is how pertinent to sales this way of bulding is.

Now how you personally convert them to buy is really how useful you are perceived by the customer first and whether what you sell is good, relevant and beneficial. That has nothing to do with web solutions outside of good informative sales sites.

The task of any site that attracts business is to turn a cold visitor into a warm and ready to buy customer. This way does that in spades at a price that is an annual investment of two Christmas dinners for two out at a good restaurant or equivalent treat.

End of story

Any one can create their knowledge expertise and passion into a business

A) if they want to
B) If they have the tools to (of course at the right price)
C) They are motivated, passionate enough to recognize
that what they know is profitable, searched for and prized by ohers

This is certainly not the only solution on the web, but what it is and has is all that anyone needs in one package, a support community second to none and individuals who share their expertise without question with others who are likewise driven to cut away from the old order and sail their own ship of state to business fruitfulness.

I would like to feel that I have been as transparent as possible in sharing how to best serve yourself on the web on a budget.

The original link thread to round it off is solved by Value Exchange within this package which allows users and non users alike to find complementary linking partners that benefit each other through relevance and a pre-disposition to be loved and spidered by the "bots". It allows you to find sites of quality rather than sites of rubbish.

That is why the idea of buying links is neolithic and counter productive as many others have implied

Jonathan

 

[eventdomain]

filter the main most profitable ,for starters the top 20 most profitable

Yes, its just that easy isn't it. Except it will cost a fortune to retain those keywords. They'll start at 30p, then when bidding happens - a few days later, they'll cost £1/£2 for each one - Na, this is costly...

Choose site name from the best keywords or one keyword - i.e best home insulation solutions.com

Keyword domains went out years ago, they worked once, but the search engines are too smart for these webmaster games, and now they carry little weight. Their no longer trendy and leave a look of amateur about the site to which their attached.

You want Branding, domains are important, not for SEO, but are more about 'Presence' and identity. I've seen many naff keyword domains, and I'd never remember any of them - and a domain must be remembered if to have the desired effect.

Alexa rating of around 68,000. Getting in the top 100K out of 80 million and that means Traffic - and valuable potential sales customers.

Hardly, I did exactly the above 7 years ago, got a Alexa rank of 79'000, but to get it was easier back then as anybody would hand over links - but now this is very different hehe. And you'll find this out.

But Alexa rank can be manipulated easily by anybody, and nobody cares about Alexa rankings, if anything the kiddies are just after Google's PR, making chasing Alexa pointless.

I would like to feel that I have been as transparent as possible in sharing how to best serve yourself on the web on a budget.

Thats very kind of you, but you assume we all need to know this affiliate crap, and we don't. Besides, I doubt there's much you can teach me, seeing as I tried all this stuff years before you probably read about it.

People always make out they know this giant web success secret, but they don't know, and even if they had that mega idea, its useless without the various triggers to make it all work. BTW, you won't know what the triggers are - but I can tell you its nothing to do with affiliate stuff nor 'secrets', you won't find it on any forum, blog, newsletter or membership style website. You have to learn by trial and error, and there's no substitute for experience, no quick routes to get rich without this trigger - that's it.

It's not one thing - its a ton of different methods combined, a little luck, some skill, a ton of industry knowledge and outside help.

 

[MASSEY]

if the links are not "organically" produced as google themselves state they will penalize you without a doubt.

 

[Tin]

if the links are not "organically" produced as google themselves state they will penalize you without a doubt.

What Google 'state' and what they 'actually do' are not necessarily connected. Try doing a backlink analysis on a mix of heavyweight competitive keywords and I think you'll be able to spot the 'paid for' links... as they're the ones that... erm... don't look very organic and often appear in 'bulk'.

Unfortunately, Google's dominance in search allied to the site owners fixation on prime rankings has spawned the need for paid links in order to compete. It's the nature of the beast!

 

[Jonathanlouis]

Yes, its just that easy isn't it. Except it will cost a fortune to retain those keywords. They'll start at 30p, then when bidding happens - a few days later, they'll cost £1/£2 for each one - Na, this is costly...

I am very sorry you have no idea of what I am describing. I am NOT talking about buying keywords or Adwords. I am describing a piece of software that brings back results in this fashion.

I can see from your reply that you are perhaps the remainder of a dinosaur era that is not only blind but dumb.

Please continue your struggle with this technology - there are those of us out there doing hugely nicely without the struggle and making a great business of it without the trials costs and tribulations you describe.

Keyword domains went out years ago, they worked once, but the search engines are too smart for these webmaster games, and now they carry little weight. Their no longer trendy and leave a look of amateur about the site to which their attached.

God save us from this view point of sheer bloody ignorance. There are tens of thousands of site builders that are doing extremely well working this way and it has nothing to do with web games. Google actually praises this particular software for its cutting edge web building and has said that it is the closest to pattern matching their own technology of judging placement.

With your myopic vision of what is old you show your age. If I can get 10s of thousand of visitors to my site each month and building and it costs me less than a few pints of beer and have been doing that for years then there ain't nothing wrong with that.

You want Branding, domains are important, not for SEO, but are more about 'Presence' and identity. I've seen many naff keyword domains, and I'd never remember any of them - and a domain must be remembered if to have the desired effect.

With due deference to the sensitive - that is Bo***cks retained from the heyday of Charlotte St and the brothers Scratchit and Scratchit.

If you want branding then create a flashy clever hugely expensive corporate site and plead with your bank manager the great reasons for it costing another ton or two of Ks and enjoy the expense of having to purchase ways to get people there - good luck to you in your Jurassic fields.

You will find me on holiday with my profits saved from not going that path

Hardly, I did exactly the above 7 years ago, got a Alexa rank of 79'000, but to get it was easier back then as anybody would hand over links - but now this is very different hehe. And you'll find this out.

But Alexa rank can be manipulated easily by anybody, and nobody cares about Alexa rankings, if anything the kiddies are just after Google's PR, making chasing Alexa pointless.

I will not have to find out

I am already and have been for the last eight years been winning all the way to the bank. Anything can be manipulated but the long term are the results.

Thats very kind of you, but you assume we all need to know this affiliate crap, and we don't. Besides, I doubt there's much you can teach me, seeing as I tried all this stuff years before you probably read about it.

Wrong matey, so wrong. I am an older hand than you in this game and no newbie. I unlike you remained open minded and am always unlike you open to be taught. Once you can say others can't teach you anything, then you are dangerously close to embracing your own arrogance as the final word. Your Jurassic posture you can keep.

People always make out they know this giant web success secret, but they don't know, and even if they had that mega idea, its useless without the various triggers to make it all work. BTW, you won't know what the triggers are - but I can tell you its nothing to do with affiliate stuff nor 'secrets', you won't find it on any forum, blog, newsletter or membership style website. You have to learn by trial and error, and there's no substitute for experience, no quick routes to get rich without this trigger - that's it.

People? Ah we are now playing the collective generalization game - a worthless and wasteful pastime, if I may say so.

Rubbish - yes you can learn by trial and error - but some of us listened to someone who had been there and done it and saved ourselves a huge amount of pain. Affiliate marketing is not THE strategy, it is merely a way of monetising those that do not take the road to your end game, as is Adsense and other ways. Multiple Sources of Income is the wisest strategy.

And finally......

I have noticed, in the last few days of returning to post useful info on this site, that the ones who have replied with their closed minds and ignorance seem to be the ones that have the most postings and thus time on their hands to spend in holes like this.

As some of my other Dragon friends have said previously

I am going to tell you where I am with this - I am out

There are better places to share and help, so I shall leave you lot in your pleasant and Jurassic landscape

Jonathan

 

[MASSEY]

lol@ the guy above me