Is £500 reasonable for a patent search??

[benjihubbs]

Hi all,

I have come up with an idea for a product and a few months ago I got in touch with a product design company. They have offered to conduct a worldwide patent search plus give me consultation either face to face or over the phone to discuss the results and the next stage in the process all for £500.

I don't have a spare £500 which is why I haven't gone through with the search already, but before I sign over the £500 I was just wondering what you more experienced guys thought about the price they are charging me.

The company is Innovate-Design, anyone got personal dealings with them?

I'm very grateful, as always, for any information you can share with me.

Thanks
Ben

 

[MrMichael]

It depends on how comprehensive the search is. Some people spend thousands on patent searches because it will enable them to avoid prior art effectively when drafting their application.

For £500, they'll probably do some keyword searches that you could do yourself if you have spare time.

Here's a link to the espacenet database: http://www.epo.org/searching/free/espacenet.html

Searching on here with keywords should allow you to assess whether there are existing inventions which may mean your design is not capable of being patenting.

If money is tight then you should be aware that patenting in the UK alone can cost up to £4,000 to £5,000 before you begin thinking about expanding into other territories.

 

[K-rado]

£500 ? you must be mad. Have a word with David W. here. He may be able to Help.
http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=149627

Also worth you having a word with Pam B and Dave F here on this forum. I understand Pam has had some dealing with them - do a search here on this forum. Not great news I am afraid! Dave F knows a thing or two about such patents, inventions and product innovation. Personally, I would do a little research on a DIY patent application. File an application with the IPO with some claims and sketches and get them to conduct the patent search. Keep your invention to your self during this time as you may need to make some changes to the application at a later date. It takes a little longer but I would cost a fraction of that £500. . When you have the results, speak with a patent attorney/David W and you may use this first application date as a priority date and file a new application that is professionally drafted. Remember, a patent cover the process, function, use and or application, not what it looks like.
I will say one thing though! If you cannot afford to cover the costs of even a UK only patent, how do you propose to develop the innovation, cover the ongoing costs associated with the up-keep of the patent - assuming that it is granted! And remember that you need deep pockets to defend your patent right. There is lots to think about and a lot of financial input! Have a look also at Trevor baylis brands. I think they are around £300 but don't expect much in return. Odds are somewhere like 7000 - 1!

Hope this helps. K.

 

[Pam B]

Ben I'm going to send you a PM.

 

[rickyhyde89]

It depends on how comprehensive the search is. Some people spend thousands on patent searches because it will enable them to avoid prior art effectively when drafting their application.

For £500, they'll probably do some keyword searches that you could do yourself if you have spare time.

Here's a link to the espacenet database: http://www.epo.org/searching/free/espacenet.html

Searching on here with keywords should allow you to assess whether there are existing inventions which may mean your design is not capable of being patenting.

If money is tight then you should be aware that patenting in the UK alone can cost up to £4,000 to £5,000 before you begin thinking about expanding into other territories.

Thanks for the link. Saved me a lot of time and money for an idea I have had which I already protected.

 

[Dave.F]

"Thanks for the link. Saved me a lot of time and money for an idea I have had which I already protected."

Did you mean:

"Thanks for the link. Saved me a lot of time and money for an idea I have had which is already protected."

:|

 

[benjihubbs]

Dave F, I hear you're the man to speak to about patents and such like. Mind if I drop you a PM?

 

[Dave.F]

Dave F, I hear you're the man to speak to about patents and such like. Mind if I drop you a PM?

Has it got to be a PM?

I like to try and help everyone at the same time, PM's only help 1 person at a time

Dave

 

[benjihubbs]

Has it got to be a PM?

I like to try and help everyone at the same time, PM's only help 1 person at a time

Dave

Fair point, open forum it is

I had contacted Innovate Product Design to try and get their help with the whole design and patenting process. But I have since been told that all they offer me is what I can do for myself. But I really don't have a clue where to start with it all. I have read every single scrap of information I can find on the web about the whole patenting process, but I am still no closer to actually knowing where to start

Cheers
Ben

 

[Dave.F]

Hi Ben,

Thank you for your understanding

OK...

1. What do you want to achieve?
2. What have you done so far?

 

[benjihubbs]

I want to eventually achieve a watertight patent to allow me to manufacture my product when I have the funds to do so.

So far I haven't achieved very much, I have some very basic (and I mean basic) drawings of my product, just sketches done by myself, but I'm not an artist (It's all up in my head really) and I have started to create a 3D CAD drawing myself.

I have extensively searched the web to see if my product (or variations) are already on the market and have discovered that they aren't. I have also done a Google Patent search using their patent search tool and I found one similar patent in the US which may pose problems.

So where do I head next?

Thanks for all your help Dave

Ben

 

[MrMichael]

On the basis that there is an existing patent in the US which is similar, this would suggest to me that you would be unable to patent the invention yourself. Patents are territorial in nature, however prior art from any territory can be adduced to show your invention is non-patentable.

You would therefore need to introduce some form of non-obvious improvement to the existing patent to allow your invention to qualify for protection. Of course, it may already be the case that your product contains this improvement.

The next steps for you would be to discuss the matter with a patent attorney who would be able to take a look at the existing US patent, and compare it thoroughly against your product. If your product is sufficiently different, they could then assist with drafting a patent application, most probably in the UK initially.

I know a few patent attorneys from my time in private practice who I could give you the details of although it depends on the nature of your product. They would most probably be able to give you a bit of their time for free to discuss.

The main point is that patenting is an expensive process particularly when looking to expand into different territories and so ideally you would look to partner up with someone who could assist financially in return for a licence/split of revenue.

I am at a loose end at present and wouldn't mind considering the US patent against your product if you want to PM me the details.

 

[Dave.F]

Hi Ben,

Before contacting any patent attorneys or spending any money, have you searched your idea in foreign languages?

Remember prior art can be from anywhere in the world

You can use Google's language tools to convert your search text.

Keep searching with lots of different search terms.

Dave.

 

[benjihubbs]

Before contacting any patent attorneys or spending any money, have you searched your idea in foreign languages?

I hadn't thought of that, I'll have to give that a go.

How much searching should I do before finally concluding that there is no prior art the same as my idea?

Cheers

 

[Swisaw]

Some instruction for inventors like myself:

1- Develop a good ethical values. When you sign None Disclosure Confidentiality agreement, stick to it, don't mention names. But first do a very good homework, especially before parting with your money.


2- First do all the patent application for your idea by yourself. To learn to do that get details of 'how to apply for a patent' from Intellectual Property Patent Office at www.ipo.gov.uk.


3- Familiarise yourself with all nuts and bolts of patent applications, especially how to write 'CLAIMS'. 'CLAIMS' are used to distinguish your new idea from previously known ideas, prior arts. You get a patent for what you 'CLAIM' only


4- You have to pay IPO for patent search. That is a legal requirement. So use that for a maximum benefit, for a full search. It is only £120.00 online.


5- To use IPO for full search, use 'CLAIMS' for the full specification of your idea or claim every bits, pieces, nut and bolts of your idea. Don't worry at this stage if some of your claims are not new. You can rewrite the claims later.


6- IPO searches in line to what you have claimed, they don't search according to the specifications and drawings. They should find and send you details of any applications, claims, similar to yours. Ideally they should do that 100% but we live in a practical world..


7- When you receive details of the search, change and rewrite your claims accordingly. You can change everything except technical details and drawings. This is a very critical stage. Try to use a patent attorney to do that if you can afford it.


8- European or world patent cooperation treaty bodies are very expensive. To patent abroad use UK IPO, which may not cost anything. First apply in UK and use the date of UK application as the priority date when you apply in any other country. Alternatively apply straight to the patent office of the country, where you want your patent be marketed.


9- Whatever, a patent attorney provides you, should become your property. So if you used one to get a patent in UK and you want to take your patent to USA, you may not need to use a patent attorney again, just use what the patent attorney gave you in UK. If you want take the patent to a None-English Speaking country, use a firm specialised to translate legal documents to translate, what your UK patent attorney gave you, to the language of that country.

10- Try to make a prototype after you applied for the a patent and check if it is satisfactory. Try to make the prototype by yourself or use the service of a local small workshop. At this stage CAD or programs to control machines may be too expensive and unnecessary. For my 'A Better Cookware Concept' I have been offered CAD or programs controlling machines, costing from £2500.00 to £30k when all I needed and asked was a prototype model for my own tests.


11- If it is satisfactory, evaluate the competition, production cost and retail price. After that act accordingly, like contacting investors, super markets, manufacturers......etc.
__________________

 

[Dave.F]

See Ben, another good reason to keep your conversation / questions in an open forum, you get the benefit of many peoples help and experiences

Thanks Swisaw some good points there

 

[Tax-UK]

It will cost you over a £1k per country to register your patent. All they are doing his searching the market to let you know if the patent already exists for £500.

Hi all,

I have come up with an idea for a product and a few months ago I got in touch with a product design company. They have offered to conduct a worldwide patent search plus give me consultation either face to face or over the phone to discuss the results and the next stage in the process all for £500.

I don't have a spare £500 which is why I haven't gone through with the search already, but before I sign over the £500 I was just wondering what you more experienced guys thought about the price they are charging me.

The company is Innovate-Design, anyone got personal dealings with them?

I'm very grateful, as always, for any information you can share with me.

Thanks
Ben

 

[Nick Dougan]

You can do quite a lot of patent searching yourself, on the internet. Professionals would probably do it better, but no one can guarnatee to find whether your invention is actually novel or not. Try http://worldwide.espacenet.com/

If you are intent on developing an invention for commercial development, the sooner that you find out whether you have a protectable invention the better. If someone has done what you're thinking of before, then you are wasting you time. But if you find out abouyt that inventionit may set you mind working again on making a further development.

I think that you might find this case study interesting. http://www.bb-ip.com/index.php/cost-effective-ipr-edge-safe/ As it happens I'm now working with this inventorm, but I met him after he'd done all of his IP work.

Nick