Interns and "placement years"

R.Anders

Free Member
Apr 18, 2020
53
2
Hello all,

We have been contacted by a local university to ask if we offer "placements". We are a small but sought-out design studio.

Basically, they would like us to have space(s) for their students to come for a period of time (3-12 months) UNPAID where we would teach them OJT.

Regardless of what I think of it, I was wondering if:
1. Is it legal from an employer's point of view
2. Insurance - what if something happens to them while they are working with us?

Furthermore, they asked if we would offer the same, but for a graduate. Which has another level of moral aspect but in practicality, what about the legal and insurance aspect of a graduate?

Thank you
 

GuyMor

Free Member
Mar 23, 2016
146
5
Thanks for this.

We have employee liability cover for our employees. I don't intend to hire these interns/placements and don't intend to classify them as employees.

I don't want to fall into any traps here. It seems they will have to sign a volunteer placement contract with us?
 
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Chris Ashdown

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  • Dec 7, 2003
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    I have always had my moral doubt about the use of interns, but maybe the best way to look at it is would you be happy to have your own children work for you as a intern rather than a trainee on normal pay

    It also makes it far easy to recruit in large companies, Just by being able to pick the highest graded graduates as interns and sort out the chaff from the good at a latter date
     
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    Alyson Dyer

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    Oct 27, 2011
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    My daughter is an intern at the moment, she is employed for 54 weeks on a salary of £20k working for a multinational company.
    I doubt you are going to get candidates of the highest calibration if you are asking them to do this for nothing. She and her peers would have been very wary of a short term, unpaid role.
     
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    R.Anders

    Free Member
    Apr 18, 2020
    53
    2
    My daughter is an intern at the moment, she is employed for 54 weeks on a salary of £20k working for a multinational company.
    I doubt you are going to get candidates of the highest calibration if you are asking them to do this for nothing. She and her peers would have been very wary of a short term, unpaid role.

    I'm not trying to recruit, we were approached by the university to offer our business as a placement opportunity.
     
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    Alyson Dyer

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    Oct 27, 2011
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    I'm not trying to recruit, we were approached by the university to offer our business as a placement opportunity.

    I didn’t think you were, i apologise if that is how i came across, my point was that the students wouldn’t see this as a premium opportunity. I’m surprised and disappointed that any university is promoting unpaid internships, especially as many Unis had to campaign against unpaid internship For many years until the law was changed.
     
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    paulears

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    Jan 7, 2015
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    Sadly - quite normal, as on the job experience is virtually impossible nowadays and from BTec Level 3 upwards, work, not just work experience is the only way to get some components evidence.

    The good news is that if you elect to take someone, the university (who could be doing college study too to get weak people unskilled ready for a more advanced course) will do much of the paperwork and advise you on everything. Unpaid internships in my experience stink! If you don't pay them, or pay them a pittance compared to others on staff or freelance, they get a HUGE chip on their shoulder and are more of a liability than an asset, as you just n' really on them and they are passengers - NOT - what interns should be. Let's assume you get a really good one, and you pay them at least the going rate for the actual work they do. Do YOU have the time and resources to look after them. If you sit at your desk, photoshop or similar in front of you with a genuine job, let's say it will take two hours, and this is what you have budgeted for. Sit there with an intern and talk through every decision you make, every process, explain every bit of that pile of nested gizmos you have carefully, but efficiently placed - and that two hours becomes a days work. You cannot charge the client, but you spent a day on a two hour project. This could mean profitable turns to very unprofitable. You might also need to allow them to run with a project and then, if they cock up, repair it so the client doesn't know. The intern will cost you money, but if you need somebody at the end of the intern period - this person could be really useful - they know you and your ways. However, many interns have no intention of staying with the firm they intern with - it's just a means to an end, so what benefit is the intern to you? They are NOT employees. They have no responsibility. They don't have the work ethic, and often they will let you down. I used to simply believe they were over and above usual staff compliment, but then I began to realise that they actually cost you. Worse - not all your staff will have the patience and the communication skills to train people properly. Look at yourself and your people. How many are natural teachers? Remember the old days in factories with real apprentice schemes? The foremen did the training, the testing and the assessment as part of their job. Can you do this? Back in the 90s they introduced assessor's awards - the D32,33 and 34 qualifications that people had to do to assess, or assess the assessor, or assess the assessor of the assessor. It created whole tracts of people in education who didn't have time to teach, but assessed people. A university needs you to do certain things. Mainly things on a list. Then you have to use criteria they provide to see how well they did it. Some courses will have visiting assessors who will come in and do this for you, others want you to do it. Nice to take interns on if you are interested in education. A nightmare if you are not. However - just ask the university to come in to your office and explain the system. It will appeal or not. That's it!
     
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    ethical PR

    Free Member
  • Apr 20, 2009
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    Hello all,

    We have been contacted by a local university to ask if we offer "placements". We are a small but sought-out design studio.

    Basically, they would like us to have space(s) for their students to come for a period of time (3-12 months) UNPAID where we would teach them OJT.

    Regardless of what I think of it, I was wondering if:
    1. Is it legal from an employer's point of view
    2. Insurance - what if something happens to them while they are working with us?

    Furthermore, they asked if we would offer the same, but for a graduate. Which has another level of moral aspect but in practicality, what about the legal and insurance aspect of a graduate?

    Thank you

    Normally work placements are paid. How would the students cover their accommodation and living costs if you are not paying them for the work they do.

    I wonder what sort of university would suggest this.

    I agree if you want quality candidates then pay them and have a proper training structure in place.
     
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    Alyson Dyer

    Free Member
    Oct 27, 2011
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    Swansea
    As I said my daughter is being paid, and has been given a degree of responsibility which is staggering (IMHO). However this company has hundreds of interns and also runs a (paid) graduate scheme. Many of their full time employees are former interns.
    The experience my daughter is getting is phenomenal and she is enjoying every minute. She has only been there 6 weeks but is certain that the degree she is doing was the right choice and has a clear view of what she wants once she graduates. This insight is invaluable..
    Her University, and others we visited prior to her making her choice have the stats to show that those students that choose the placement year option graduate with better degrees than those who don’t.
     
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    Rebecca_J_T

    Free Member
    Mar 30, 2020
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    So, parking the issue that there are always going to be unethical employers who abuse their power in relation to labour, I personally think there is a place for internships when used properly, as below.

    In terms of legality, the key is that these interns will not be “workers”: They will not be materially contributing to your work, they will not have to turn up to work each day, you will not be required to offer them work, they will not be under your control, etc. Rather, they will, I assume, be undertaking these placements for their learning, counting towards a final qualification.

    I would definitely check out with the university how exactly they’re anticipating this internship supports the course, and I’d be cautious until you get a robust answer.

    In terms of insurance, if you already have employer liability insurance, that should cover you.

    Personally and professionally, I find it difficult to support an unpaid placement unless:

    1) It is part of an educational programme or qualification, or occasionally part of some sort of rehabilitation programme;

    2) The role is very clearly supernumerary (I.e., the business runs normally without it);

    3) The placement lasts less than 3 months (any longer than this and I think you risk the intern becoming more employee-like, which starts to feel unethical when they’re unpaid, and to be honest, I’m not sure you get much benefit beyond this point when they’re not actually delivering work for you. Up to 3 months I think is sufficient to allow you the dynamics benefits, and allows you to get to know the intern ahead of if they might apply to work for you at the end of the course.)

    Hope this helps, but feel free to ask any other questions.

    Rebecca
     
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    Jeff FV

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    Jan 10, 2009
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    My daughter starts her placement year in September. (She has completed 2 years of her degree, will do the placement year, and the return for her final year.)

    She will be paid £19k for the year.

    I have just checked with her, all those from her Uni going on a placement year will be paid a “proper” salary. 19/20k is about the norm, but this can vary by a few k above or below (the above tend to be in London to reflect higher living costs)

    Unpaid internships are unfair (and I appreciate the OP is not trying to get work on the cheap, but has asked for info). Only the (children of the) wealthy could afford to spend 12 months working without earning.
     
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    Alyson Dyer

    Free Member
    Oct 27, 2011
    278
    113
    Swansea
    My daughter starts her placement year in September. (She has completed 2 years of her degree, will do the placement year, and the return for her final year.)

    She will be paid £19k for the year.

    I have just checked with her, all those from her Uni going on a placement year will be paid a “proper” salary. 19/20k is about the norm, but this can vary by a few k above or below (the above tend to be in London to reflect higher living costs)

    Unpaid internships are unfair (and I appreciate the OP is not trying to get work on the cheap, but has asked for info). Only the (children of the) wealthy could afford to spend 12 months working without earning.

    if she is anything like my daughter she will love the experience, don’t get me wrong, she has had her wobbles but, despite the trials of having to work remotely for the first few weeks.
    Unpaid internships are reprehensible.
     
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    Mr D

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    Feb 12, 2017
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    When I worked with one particular charity for a few years they often had students on placement for a couple of months from the social work course. Internship was the term used - the students just referred to it as placement.
    Unpaid, they had to do same basic work as the paid staff, they had to be there on time every morning and leave same time as everyone else. And they had to do a report on the placement.
    We also had to do a report on them - generally if they got on with people the report we did was good.
    Woe betide the ones who had an attitude - if they lasted a few days they learnt to hide it. Or they didn't come back.

    The uni used the charity for placement for several years without major problems. But also without pretty much any training. Dropped in the deep end, here do this...
    To this day besides meeting the client base I've no clue what any of the students got out of that placement.
     
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    R.Anders

    Free Member
    Apr 18, 2020
    53
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    Sorry all, I didn't want to make this a morality discussion, but a very simple legal/insurance one.

    It seems that from the GOV website, someone is not considered a worker if they are under a student "placement". To be that you have to NOT be paid and NOT do any material work that would have been done if they weren't there

    If someone isn't considered a worker, then they are not an employee.

    If they are not an employee, will they actually be covered under my employee liability cover?
     
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    Scalloway

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    Jun 6, 2010
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    From here, the HSE website

    https://www.hse.gov.uk/youngpeople/workexperience/placeprovide.htm

    "Under health and safety law, work experience students are your employees. You treat them no differently to other young people you employ."

    I looked for intern on the HSE search facility and that is the top result. I must assume that interns are considered to be employees for this purpose.

    There is more information here on insurance

    https://www.policybee.co.uk/blog/insurance-for-work-experience

    If this does not help you contact your insurer.
     
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    Gill Courage

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    Jun 25, 2019
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    From a small business owner point of view you have to ask, "what's in it for me?" It will cost your paid employees' time to shepherd these interns through the work and, thus, cost you money. You may discover a few gems that you want to employ or you may just train them up (at your expense) for others benefit. Sad, but true.
     
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    chickenlady

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    Feb 28, 2019
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    There are quite a few university courses which offer unpaid placements - teaching, doctors, vets etc spring to mind. They range in length from a couple of weeks 'observation' to doing the job yourself, hopefully supervised by an excellent mentor. These are part of the course though and are carefully planned by the university and the placement - the student is still a student (paying fees, getting the maintenance loan) but is getting hands-on, practical experience, with detailed feedback required by both the placement and the student. They are not an internship or a sandwich/industry year but you'd have to consider them as a voluntary employee for insurance I think.

    I think you need to know exactly what the university really wants and expects from you and if they can't tell you or want you to make it up on the hoof, I'd be wondering where the value would be. Are the courses relevant to the work you do? If it is a longer placement, do you get to choose the student through an interview process?

    I have been a mentor to a trainee teacher and it was bloody hard work - I had to do quite a lot of training/reporting in my own time and sacrificed most lunchbreaks - the only bonus I got was that she did my playground duty once a week - I still did pretty much everything with her; one of my kids works at a Bluecross vets where there are always trainee vets and spends a lot of time teaching, supervising, signing off skills and filling in review forms but it is great for the CV. When training (not long ago) she had to apply for placements to cover certain skills and they were all over the country - usually with accommodation - the uni covered travel costs I think.

    Without those placements, some jobs could not be done so don't be put off - it can be a valuable experience for both sides. If they want you to teach - could you do a bit of guest lecturing?
     
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