Insidious, indirect bullying still bullying?

[SimplyKev]

OK, going to have to be a little careful here just in case someone from work goes on this site but I've submitted a greivance and an appeal against redundancy, a lot of which is very valid but I got asked a question and that question was, do I feel I'm being bullied and if so then how, and do I want to have it investigated?

I've chosen not to answer the question for now. Why?

The type of bullying we are talking about is extremely subtle and indirect. I have a reputation for being a very bad person to bully and I don't stand back if I see others being bullied either - which can and usually does make me a target. The result is though, it's done very subtely with me. . .

Fact is; I've just finished a redundacy procedure. A 90 day consultation finished 4 or 5 weeks ago and was deemed 'closed'; I was to be made redundant or could move into the warehouse - akin, really and truly to a demotion. Staying in my job would ineffect have been a promotion.

We went through a selection procedure I regarded as a waste of time, so did a number of others many chosing not to go through with it because of this bully boss. Post consultation, and but two weeks before it all took effect, my counterpart who didn't apply to stay and was going to take redundancy got asked to remain whislt I didn't and I got the impression that they were being asked to stay permanently, officially temporarily but I think with me gone, it would've, if he could have got away with it, been permanently. With that, I submitted a grievance to the main boss and the matter is being investigated.

Those who went through the selection procedure were, with the exception of myself, successful, and the 'team' he's got basically consists of dominant males - people who join forces with this bully boss, and subservient females, one of whom really isn't up to the job being unable to use her initiative, scared even of picking up the phone and speaking to people she doesn't know!!

I don't wish to go into too much detail but I was interviewed and assessed for the 'new' role by this bully boss - no one else was. Everyone else had relatively independent assessors.

Post consultation my counterpart was given - not interviewed for but given this 'temporary' position, I complained, got told they ( bully boss and accomplices ) didn't think I'd be interested in it so they didn't ask ( despite my having been in the job ten years ! ) and a few days later I was 'invited' to attend an interview for the position - I rejected the offer as my counterpart had already received a letter for this 'new' position! Fortunately I received this offer in writing!!!!

So yes, I complained to the main boss and the matter is being investigated

I wish it was simple but the fact is, I was around the same time made aware of another person ( female )being badly bullied, very badly by at least one female member of the HR team and thats been going on for some weeks apparently, consisting of being given numerous time consuming tedious jobs to do ( finding things in archives etc ) then berated for not having managed to do all her days 'work',and then having false allegations made up and being presented to her ( So and so said you said this, 'this' being a rascist comment, the reply being; she hadn't seen her all day, the allegation then being changed to yesterday then etc )She resigned with immediate effect the other day! Couldn't take anymore.

I have reason to believe my bully boss wanted her out to make room for one of 'his' subservient females who was going to take redundancy. She's been asked to stay, again temporarily, to fulfil the role ( officially its receptionist work ) but will I suspect be asked if she's interested in applying for the position on a permanent basis at a later date. This gives my bully boss a certain advantage; should one of his team in his department resign at short notice, then he has people around with experience who he can move back in to the department to help out whilst a replacement is found. I would, if I stayed in any capacity, find myself in exactly the same position as a clause in contract can be used to that effect.

So yes; it's clever, insidious and manipulative!!! But the question is; am I being bullied by HIM? And if so, how? And do I want to complain? Truth be told; I very rarely see him and when I do he's nauseatingly charming and friendly and overbearing - micromanages, never, ever EVER consults anyone but he's as slimy as they come. . . Truth is, if I'm to stay there I need him gone. I want to say yes and complain but he uses these henchmen of his to communicate with me and much as he's less subtle with others; he bullies others by not inviting them to meetings, excluding them from e-mailed memo's, refusing to talk to those who dare to complain, even walking out if they enter the office because they've dared to question his latest, often crazy plan, he is much more subtle with me, hence; evidence to get rid of me. I think I'm being asked by the main boss and given time to, get others to complain too so the main boss can deal with him but these 'others' have now either left or are currently on holiday but I can probably get hold of some, including the receptionist that resigned but whether I can get them to complain too remains to be seen. I trust they can complain even if they've resigned and left already??

Constructive comments please, thanks a lot 'Kev'

 

[internetspaceships]

Is it just me or is this basically similar to your other thread, but presented in a different way?

 

[SimplyKev]

I find you a slightly strange character that doesn't always post the most constructive of comments!!!

Lets get something straight; I WAS GOING TO BE MADE REDUNDANT AS OF YESTERDAY . . . My last post was indeed CONNECTED and YOU recommended that I accept their trick of an offer to accept employment in the warehouse whilst my colleague, who neither applied for the 'new' job, nor to stay beyond yesterday got asked to remain in the same job much as we'd received letters to say those posts were redundant as of today, 31st March 2012.

FORTUNATELY, I didn't take your advice!!! At the beginning of the week there was one job 'spare' and that had been given to my counterpart the previous week. By Tuesday, I'd been 'invited' to apply for this 'spare' job much as that had already been given to my counterpart and confirmed in writing so I rejected that 'offer' and by Wednesday, matey, my bully head of Department had, as he put it, 'identified' a need for yet another person to remain in the office as well and would I be interested in accepting that!!!! OK, OFFICIALLY, it's a temporary two month extension but basically, despite letters to the contrary, I've still got my 'redundant' job!!!!!

If you want to post anything else in response to this thread, can you please answer the question!!!! Thankyou, you sound like my boss!!!! An egocentric narcissistic idiot - unless there's a secret agenda to wreck the department!!!!

 

[internetspaceships]

I only asked a question there. You're coming out in your true colours now.

 

[businessfunding]

Either this is an early April fools or you are a nightmare employee who really shouldn't be working alongside other people.

 

[SimplyKev]

At least I find your answer amusing It depends how you look at it; I cause no trouble so long as management operate legally and fairly. Bullying nice people who often do their jobs well gets right on my wit!!!, I'm punctual.Very, very rarely sick and if its manically busy then so am I, I deal with it and get the work done, I deal with numerous issues and some problems are beyond my control, weather for example but I'm well known for putting a lot of effort into trying to solve problems and I almost always find a great solution. To fail to find a solution often costs hundreds to resolve so I save at least a thousand a week in unnecessary costs.

No disrespect but I've been there 10 years and staff turnover has been remarkably low. Now some narcissistic manager has taken over and the best, most experienced 50% of a team resign!!!!! In all my working life I've never come across a character quite like this one so I suspect very few here can really relate to this!!!

I'm not against change, restructuring etc but there's a right way to go about it with beneficial consequences for all and this isn't it, hence, why this guy wants to bully people out of other jobs in other peoples departments, put his spare people, none of whom applied to stay in his department, into those jobs and then, that way, he can continue to bully those who he keeps in his department, Then, when they resign or he fires them, he can temporarily shift those he's moved back into the department whilst he finds replacements!!! And what?? You call that a good boss? And this guy wastes thousands left right and center, probably just to show us all who's boss!!!! Well, my attitude is; it might not be my money, but it is my job to save the company money as and when I can and I would suggest I can save on average, at least £1000 in unnecessary expenditure every week (in wages etc )

As for the diplomatics, I'll admit that if you wind me up enough I tend to throw them out the window!!!! Even I'll admit it. At present I'm well wound up but the fact is, what my bosses have done is actually illegal and if you don't want to get caught, then don't do it. In the end, fear and .overconfidence were their undoing!!! One has been told to apologise to me already and other apologies will no doubt follow.

Now anybody here care to answer the original question; can an employee that's just resigned courtesy of bullying still forward a grievance to the employer? And how to deal with or complain about insidious or subtle, indirect bullying??

 

[internetspaceships]

Did the employee make any formal complaints about bullying before resigning?

 

[SimplyKev]

That's something I need to find out and wonder myself, personally, I suspect not, much as being given too much to do in a day and having fabricated accusations does constitute a form of bullying but a lot of people don't seem to realise that. For that said, all these things are done verbally and with that the main boss can't really act on these accusations. If he could, he'd be inundated with complaints. As it is these types just deny everything. With me, it's a little different, I got them worried and they started putting deceitful offers in writing - why, no doubt, one manager's apololgised to me, he's had his hand slapped!!!

 

[Steve Sellers]

Did the employee make any formal complaints about bullying before resigning?

I didn't bother to read the rest of the OP's posts and won't be offering any advice. I must say you have the patience of a saint because he comes across as very rude.

 

[SimplyKev]

I don't mean to be rude but if you don't mind me saying so he did call me a muppet the other day for not accepting another role which would actually have been a really bad move on my part. I don't personally feel as though a lot of people are thoroughly comprehending what I'm dealing with here but it's known as a toxic work place where scheming and subtle bullying are rife and now that I've complained others are coming to me with similar stories; prevented from applying even, for promotion, being subject to false and malicious accusations, alsorts.

These changes have taken place now and I've actually quite enjoyed my job but only because I've prevented about £2,000 worth of expensive mistakes being made in two days!!!

I apologise if I went a bit OTT with intenetspaceship, but I have had an horrendous time these past couple of weeks, with very little sleep, even throwing up as a result of this. Now that I've got a measure of what I'm dealing with I can deal with it a lot better and I've now caught up on my sleep but don't think what I'm dealing with isn't bad, it is, and a lot of people, almost all of whom have happily worked there for years have quit recently and they didn't quit because of me. They quit because this new boss changed things left right and center so things no longer worked. Now I see, he's changed them back again to how things were originally and in mangement meetings is no doubt blaming all those who quit for the problems he created but of course, they're no longer around to defend themselves and by putting things back to how they originally were he will no doubt be trying to get all the credit for the improvemnts that we can now expect to see!! Thats how he is!!!

He kind of hedges his bets, playing it both ways. The team he's now got is so inexperienced it's making some very basic but potentially very expensive mistakes whilst other things have been put back to how they originally were so the reason for one set of mistakes have been fixed and other mistakes can now be blamed on inexperience. This way he can claim to be improving things yet if he's over buget at the end of the first quarter he can say he's got a new team in there and given time it'll be OK. If he feels the heat in the second quarter he'll start blaming the new team and try and get another in, maybe the old team hence why he wants experienced people to remain if elsewhere in the company and if he has to, he gets rid of people in other departments to move 'his' people into those positions so they're there for him to recall if needs be - and he does it too by the way. Bullies get together you know and he has two female and two male bully accomplices who he tells to get rid of people and they do, one resigned after years of service just last week - and guess who's taken over? Yep, one of our departments lot! I'm sorry but that's not good and I for my part fight that sort of thing. They've made a mistake with me putting things in writing and since then I've discovered other mistakes, also in writing ( lies that can be proved ). We'll see how I come out of it.

 

[internetspaceships]

I agree with the other posters here. I'd also go a little further. A person like you wouldn't last 5 minutes in my organisation.

I think it's quire funny that you think you should be telling people how to run their business when only a few weeks ago you were working out whether to take redundancy or not.

 

[Consistency]

I have a reputation for being a very bad person to bully

I think I am better not commenting because if I were to say something not liked, I may be seen as a bully and I don't want to get on the wrong side of you.

 

[Steve Sellers]

I don't mean to be rude but if you don't mind me saying so he did call me a..............

Fair enough. OP if you have to ask other people how it is bullying then IMO you are not a victim of bullying. How would you establish injury as a result of the bullying if you are not even sure you are being bullied?

 

[123Simples]

Now anybody here care to answer the original question; can an employee that's just resigned courtesy of bullying still forward a grievance to the employer?

Yes - I believe you could forward a complaint if you were thinking that your resignation was a result of constructive dismissal by virtue of bullying.

And how to deal with or complain about insidious or subtle, indirect bullying??

Go and speak with your local Citizens Advice Bureau

 

[GreatSEO]

Can I just say CAB

Dave

 

[SimplyKev]

Oh well, at least this created quite a response but a lot of you are like our management - proud to think outside the box which in my organisation is interpruted as " Make it look legal, while not actually being so"

We have positions which were announced as being redundant as of 31st March and two planners were selected for new management positions, their old jobs however, are still in existence and new people have been recruited to fill them but at lower wages - that is not legal.

Of four new management positions, advertised at exactly the same money, doing the same things, three went to females, one to a male, only the male is proud to boast he's on more money. This isn't legal either.

Another was forced onto nights, given the option of nights or working in the warehouse for nearly half the wage. He actually refuses to sign the contract because he has family and he doesn't want nights.

Desperate to create a vacancy elsewhere they upped the tempo with a female receptionist to bully her into quitting and she did on the 30th March, immediately replaced with a displaced worker from transport, to be recalled as and when required.

I've since found others denied access even to apply for promotions, much as they had the backing of lower and middle managers (because they're good workers) but denied it because the main HR manager enjoys the power of being able to dish these positions out to whoever she wishes. And wow, a lot of you regard this as being OK?????

OK this is evidently widespread and a lot of you must deteste the law which to be fair, I don't think is always right myself but that's the law and to be fair I don't think the laws regard this are actually that bad regards restructuring, selection processes and bullying which includes denying people the opportunity to seek promotion and abuse of power but a lot evidently disagree in which case we agree to disagree I'm afraid!!!

For sure I won't be coming here for advice again because way too many of you approve and seem to regard yourselves as above the law!!! But what some of you are effectively saying is you like to operate like this, you like to bully people out of jobs, appear legal while not actually being so but you don't like people like me who can and do fight bullies on my and others behalf and will use the law in order to fight back. Well, in that case, be careful because if you pick on me or friends of mine or decent people who may not be friends but they're decent people, I'll stick up for them if no one else has the guts to and I'll admit, most don't but I do!

At the rate I'm going we will be seeing who a court supports. Far as I'm concerned, I can't lose either way now, can keep my job and get a significant pay rise, if not, I can leave and so fragile is that department, so understaffed and inexperienced is it, I reckon it could collapse within weeks of my departing if Iget the timing right and if I leave, I get a significant redundancy package, legal fees are covered by insurance and if I win, I'll get a sum from that too and this is a big company, not short of money. I suspect I'll have the last laugh yet for I have evidence in writing, big mistake, and witnesses and others willing to testify that they too have been subject to unfair treatment and in some cases ferocious bullying. I don't pick fights but if you pick one with me, my attitude is, fine, but you don't cry about it if you get hurt!!! And I very rarely lose them so long as others start them!!!! And they're usually started by egomanic narcissists, who don't do guilt, compassion or remorse. I do, but I can switch those emotions off when those types start on me and those of you who constitute egomanic nacissists deteste being on the receiving end of your own lack of feelings don't you?? One rule for you, and one rule for everybody else. My next update will advise you of the final result so it could be sometime away, Adios!!!

 

[SimplyKev]

Fair enough. OP if you have to ask other people how it is bullying then IMO you are not a victim of bullying. How would you establish injury as a result of the bullying if you are not even sure you are being bullied?

Bullying can be indirect, insidious and psycological, it doesn't have to be physical or verbal; shouting at for example or being belittled.

The subtle kind could involve someone in a management position accussing someone junior of racially abusing them or another much as the allegations are fabricated and without evidence but if that manager is friendly with a power mad HR manager, then they maybe able to simply accuse them, formally to HR, who will suspend them, this can cause stress to the victim who can't prove otherwise and who they ultimately let them off for lack of evidence, satisfied that they've shown them who's boss.

On returning to work, having shown them who's boss, they pile ridiculous time wasting jobs on them, finding numerous pieces of information to retrieve from archives only to then tell them that what they've retrieved isn't what they're looking for and to put it back and look for something else - all this on top of their normal work which they get behind on and then get berated for that too. This is more or less what our receptionist got subjected to but people got desperate, upped the tempo, reduced her to tears and because the HR manageress was subtly a part of it, she had no one she could complain to and so she quit. This is bullying too, but much harder to prove. There's no written evidence of it, it's just her word against a manger who says she was useless at her job, constantly failing to get things done and fabricated things in an effort to get revenge and some money out of the company, case dismissed for lack of evidence. I by contrast have evidence - I tend to tell them off, fight them, they get scared and that fear leads to mistakes that I can discover and have on this occasion.

For myself, the main bully directed a relatively young henchman, he's not a bad guy this guy, just a bit young and a bit too eager to please, to do some dirty work for him but I think he realised what he was being asked to do was illegal so he actually put a proposal in writing probably to cover his back and theres written evidence elsewhere, which I posess, that shows this to be a sham and illegal!!!! You might say; what a tangled web we weave!!!! That's why it's interesting - because I have written evidence, witnesses to some events. I don't want to comment too much because this could end up in court but it's interesting but tricky to answer the question; do I feel bullied by him and if so how? The answers yes, but not directly. Written evidence does however support me in my claim that he has singled me out for unfair treatment. Others too but I probably can't prove that!!!

Thankyou, and for a few others too, for at least listening to me.She wasn't bad at her job that girl who I may see at a party this weekend. I could give other examples but thats enough for now.

Thanks to those of you who took the time to read and give decent, constructive replies. I will visit CAB when I get a chance, very busy at present.

 

[businessfunding]

In fairness you stand quite a good chance of getting something from atribunal or a pay-out to avoid tribunal, which on principle you should reject.

Tribunals are notoriously biased in favour of the employee.

Best of luck and Lord help anyone else who employs you.

 

[Steve Sellers]

Bullying can be indirect, insidious and psycological, it doesn't have to be physical or verbal; shouting at for example or being belittled. ................................ satisfied that they've shown them who's boss.......................................................

On returning to work, having shown them who's boss,

I am aware of what qualifies as workplace bullying.


You showed them who was boss? Just so I am sure, you are the employee, but you are showing them who is boss?..............and you are the one being bullied?

 

[Consistency]

And to think the Liberal Democrats want to give employees more rights by entitling them to a share in the company in which they work. Dangerous times.

 

[BeeDub]

I had a trade union rep once, who behaved exactlly like the OP sounds......he too was very happy at taking the wage packet each week from his employer.

Not once did I see him hand it back because of xyz not being to his "standards".....

 

[internetspaceships]

I guess my initial assessment of the OP was not too far off the mark after all.

 

[BulliesOut]

I read this thread after 'Googling' forum bullies and felt compelled to join and make a few points here!

SimplyKev - thanks very much for being brave enough to highlight the subtleties of work place bullying, you make your case well and with the detail that it clearly deserves - despite the rubbishing of the majority of the other posters here - well done!
The basic bullying of your account is a familiar and insidious aspect endured by many people who cannot or do not feel able to do anything about it. You have created here an excellent example for anyone who is also searching on the internet for information, help and inspiration to fight back - again well done!
Lastly perhaps the majority of the other posters here should have a long hard look at themselves and how their responses here could very much be construed as even further insidious 'forum bullying' and 'ganging up' - try helping rather than personal attacks - it's far more rewarding?

For more information on workplace bullying try the DirectGov web site!
and a bullying charity called BulliesOut.com where they have a section dedicated to Workplace Bullying

Good luck SimplyKev I hope you get a resolution!

 

[internetspaceships]

So what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't agree with the OP's attitude is bullying? Come on you really can't be serious?

 

[Steve Sellers]

I read this thread after 'Googling' forum bullies and felt compelled to join and make a few points here!..........................................................

You set up an account just to post that in attempt to get a nibble. So what screen name do you normally post under?

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

This and that
I was scared to post under my real name as you all bully me

Im not scared !!!

Just would like to know who is doing the work in this country when so many people are spending their working day involved in conflict

Its a shame because we have so much talent in this country but we are just letting other nations speed ahead of us!!

 

[businessfunding]

Im not scared !!!

Just would like to know who is doing the work in this country when so many people are spending their working day involved in conflict

ARE YOU CALLING ME LAZY?

And you looked at my bird..