If You Could Measure Pro-EU Sentiment You Would Need a Microscope

david64

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In the world of real people, I have never come across a Europhile; and by that I mean someone who is staunchly pro-EU, as opposed to pro-Europe. In general, Europhiles are the likes of Peter Mandelson, scurrying around suppressing things in the dark. Of real people, I've not come across anyone who is anything other than partially in the pro-EU camp. They are not of a mind that there are a few things they disagree with EU on, they disagree with practically everything, but are worried to leave it.

I'd say that 33% of the population thoroughly want to leave the EU; 32% of people want to stay, while being roundly dissatisfied and wanting massive change; 33% are not sure and only 1% have as strong feelings to stay in as the third who desperately want to get out.

I am hoping that the referendum will be won on the low turnout of youth, who will only end up changing their mind when they join the 'real world'. Chances are these 'change' loving students will be too busy changing the alcohol content of their bowels on the 23rd and the country can be handed back to those of us who have a spleen.
 

Marek Skoczylas

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It not only about EU, it is also about or maybe almost - migrants. If UK will be inhabited by foreigners at the present tempo, within a few generations England may never be the same again. I wish you to achieve "greatnes", like Great Britain was through ages. You British are a great and wise people. I wish you good decision.
 
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david64

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It not only about EU, it is also about or maybe almost - migrants. If UK will be inhabited by foreigners at the present tempo, within a few generations England may never be the same again. I wish you to achieve "greatnes", like Great Britain was through ages. You British are a great and wise people. I wish you good decision.

I agree, but I hope that as a result of leaving the European Union, there can also be a new immigration policy, which puts UK citizens first. Those who like to virtue signal by giving the thumbs up to unlimited immigration are woefully uninformed. Come to Eastern Europe and you will find that freedom of movement is held in as much disdain as it is in Britain. People wonder why they should fork out so much money to educate their children and teach them English, only for them to make a bee line for Western Europe, the US etc. at the earliest opportunity. The population of Bulgaria is decreasing at about 0.75% a year. Its approaching a 25% decline from its peak little more than 25 years ago. All throughout Southern and Eastern Europe, people talk of the brain drain as much as Brits talk about the ridiculous levels of uncontrolled immigration, which the government has now admitted they have no idea how much it is and was probably over 800,000 incomers last year. And those that want to complain on limiting immigration as an assault on the connected world, try visiting the many ghost villages and practically uninhabited villages in Bulgaria. In 2014 5% of people left Kosovo for Western Europe. When everyone in the region is allowed into the EU, expect double-digit percentage drops in nation's populations within a few years. This is not a connected world, but a disconnecting world, in which, soon, Western Europe will have to bail out the pension schemes of many countries because they have taken those who would have paid for them. And the idea that importing people from these countries into Western Europe to help pay for pensions is pure insanity, other than having to bail out Eastern Europe's failed pensions. What is it going to be like in 2100, when the population of Britain is 100 million and still the pension schemes need more people to prop them up?

The EU is a thoroughly irresponsible organisation that cares more for its completely undemocratic march to the United States of Europe than it does in building up its member states. Bulgaria is literally run by mafia. The country is completely rigged at the expense of its development, but the EU does not care so long its mafia is compliant with EU expansionism.

And that is just the argument from an eastern perspective. If you look at a recent large study of the IQs of British students, it found that the average IQ of native Brits is 102. If you take native Brits out of the equation, the average IQ drops 9 points to 93 - on par with Bulgaria. If you also take out Hindus, Sikhs and Chinese (who also have an average IQ of 102), the average IQ drops a full 10 points to 92. IQ studies have shown again and again that lower than average IQs in a society have much higher incidences of things that are bad, like crime, unemployment, divorce etc.

Continuing on IQ, the IQ of young Eastern Europeans is generally much higher than their parents as a result of better education, but if they (particularly the brightest) are continually siphoned off, the development of Eastern Europe will be crippled.

BBC's Reality Check site out.

Don't believe you hear everything politicians/the press say

I'd put the BBC in the same category. For the Libya fiasco it was like the were operating as a public relations agency for the War Office (as it was formerly, correctly called).
 
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garyk

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Before you make your mind up either way I would definitely check the BBC's Reality Check site out.

Don't believe you hear everything politicians/the press say (same goes for topics other than the EU too)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388

I wouldn't trust anything the BBC say either. They are supposed 'report' the new and be objective.

I agree with the OP I am yet to find someone firmly in the 'stay' camp but the polls have it neck and neck (allegedly) with the fence sitters being the deciding factor.

Of course this all assumes that all the votes are counted fairly....
 
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david64

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It's highly amusing that the exceptionally vocal individuals from the Leave camp invariably declare democracy as dead if the outcome isn't to their liking.

I think you're getting a little confused here. When again and again, the largely unknown, unelected EU bureaucrats have ignored referendums and replaced national leaders. Under what circumstances do the leave camp have to throw out popular votes when they don't like them? None.

We're not declaring democracy will be dead if we do not win. It's already dead. The few 'people' who I know that are voting to remain recognise this.

Last year I thought maybe I could try and get into the European Parliament, to try and change it. But of course, that would be a fruitless task. It is ruled by an unelected politburo, known as The Commision; bolstered by a central committee, known as the Council of Ministers; and adorned by a fraudulent, supreme Soviet, known as the European Parliament. When they began planning to launch their own Ruble as well, I imagine your delight knew no bounds.

And I am not even a fan of democracy, but it is a hell of a lot better than dictatorship, in which the corridor of allowed movement shrinks so narrow that we end up in the straight-jacket we find ourselves in now. At least with democracy, something can get done every ten years.
 
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Chris Ashdown

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    There seems to be two types of Federation

    One like the USA where the federation looks after the main rules of living in the country
    This gives enormous powers to the states to run their own domains without to much interference. in fact much like England, Scotland, Wales, NI and Cornwall

    Two like the EU that wants to micro manage everything down to the proverbial banana and gives less power to the countries and with a view of even less as time goes on

    The US started from immigrants getting together to make a country where as the EU tries to merge different countries and traditions into one blend,

    Is it at all possible that having now given Turkey the right to travel into the EU without visa's that the poor will want to come to the richer area's where the streets are made of gold and those that do act just like the British in the old Empire, stay together in isolated groups which is far easier than integrating

    Both sides need to consider how they want their country to be run in 20 to 50 years time and what you really value, both sides will see vast changes over say the next ten years whatever you vote for; and anti change is unfortunately one of the traits that the British population does not like to get involved in
     
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    david64

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    So you're suggesting they're not really people?

    A bit like the way racists refer to people from different ethnicity?

    It's called a sense of humor - a ribbing. I can handle it when people do it to me; and they can handle it when I do it to them.

    As for your racist comment. Rather than trying to combat any arguments, you're going out on an irrelevant limb to bring in the race card to shut down the debate. I'm sorry, but there is only so long you can cry wolf. For the record, I am probably one of the most, if not the most, amazing technicolor dreamcaots of a person on this forum - with ancestry in not just all the parts of the UK & Ireland, but also India, Persia, Armenia, as well as Jewish and Arab parts.

    Racists discriminate on race, not necessarily by ethnicity.
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    I wouldn't trust anything the BBC say either. They are supposed 'report' the new and be objective.

    I agree with the OP I am yet to find someone firmly in the 'stay' camp but the polls have it neck and neck (allegedly) with the fence sitters being the deciding factor.

    Of course this all assumes that all the votes are counted fairly....

    No the BBC support the left and nobody else .I lost trust in the BBC on the week of 9/11 the chat shows were were very anti American . There were Americans staying here in town that had come over to work in the local paper mill and it was embarrassing explaining that the BBC does not represent the UK .

    I fear the average voter may not understand the EU property or the advantages of staying in Al they understand is they saw a foreigner in the post office and thats all .
     
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    Cobby

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    I think you're getting a little confused here. When again and again, the largely unknown, unelected EU bureaucrats have ignored referendums and replaced national leaders. Under what circumstances do the leave camp have to throw out popular votes when they don't like them? None.

    We're not declaring democracy will be dead if we do not win. It's already dead. The few 'people' who I know that are voting to remain recognise this.

    Last year I thought maybe I could try and get into the European Parliament, to try and change it. But of course, that would be a fruitless task. It is ruled by an unelected politburo, known as The Commision; bolstered by a central committee, known as the Council of Ministers; and adorned by a fraudulent, supreme Soviet, known as the European Parliament. When they began planning to launch their own Ruble as well, I imagine your delight knew no bounds.

    And I am not even a fan of democracy, but it is a hell of a lot better than dictatorship, in which the corridor of allowed movement shrinks so narrow that we end up in the straight-jacket we find ourselves in now. At least with democracy, something can get done every ten years.

    That's a lot of words to say "My democracy is the only true democracy".
     
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    Cobby

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    I fail to see how at any point in that statement I suggested having any sort of unpopular monopoly on force; and I fail to see how it counters anything I said.
    Yours wasn't an argument so much as a propaganda piece in the style of "let me explain why everyone who doesn't agree with me is stupid".

    If you really fail to see that, then I'm entertained all the more by the irony.
     
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    david64

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    Yours wasn't an argument so much as a propaganda piece in the style of "let me explain why everyone who doesn't agree with me is stupid".

    If you really fail to see that, then I'm entertained all the more by the irony.

    Again you are unable to address any points. If its a propaganda piece, then make your arguments on a point or points made. All you have done is make statements without linking them to an argument.

    It seems that you have a real problem with this, as both times your posts have consisted of putting word in my mouth without explaining why you have done so. It would be great to go up against someone as weak as you at a debate club.
     
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    david64

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    No, that's the point; it's what *you* did. Don't get upset about people not engaging with something that doesn't qualify as a rational argument. :)

    You've done it again. What are the irrational arguments? Explain. If all you had to do to win an argument is say 'you are wrong' and 'I don't have to tell you why you are wrong'. Then the art of debate is over.

    If the arguments are so irrational, then it really shouldn't be hard to completely destroy them.
     
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    Cobby

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    You've done it again. What are the irrational arguments? Explain. If all you had to do to win an argument is say 'you are wrong' and 'I don't have to tell you why you are wrong'. Then the art of debate is over.

    If the arguments are so irrational, then it really shouldn't be hard to completely destroy them.
    It wasn't, all it took was the above post.
     
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    david64

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    It wasn't, all it took was the above post.

    It's not possible to win an argument without making one. Please find a way to get onto the EU referendum debate, with your complete inability to address anything directly or even know basic facts about the situation in Europe (as per your other post on the other thread), a leave vote would be inevitable.
     
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    Karimbo

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    It not only about EU, it is also about or maybe almost - migrants. If UK will be inhabited by foreigners at the present tempo, within a few generations England may never be the same again. I wish you to achieve "greatnes", like Great Britain was through ages. You British are a great and wise people. I wish you good decision.

    not really, supply and demand would just make it uneconomical for people to just move here. EU membership just causes problems with housing. increasing rents and mortgages. The lower middle to working class will get a break.

    So the housing market will self regulate the immigration. But at the expense of making it expensive for everyone.

    I have relatives who live in Crawley, they moved there in the 80s when the property prices were dirt cheap. 40-60K would get you a decent terraced house with 3 bedrooms.

    In the last 5 years houses that were £100K have moved north of £250K. People cant get onto the outskirts of London so they have to venture out into these small towns. Next people will be buying flats for £300K in milton keynes!
     
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    Marek Skoczylas

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    not really, supply and demand would just make it uneconomical for people to just move here. EU membership just causes problems with housing. increasing rents and mortgages. The lower middle to working class will get a break.

    So the housing market will self regulate the immigration. But at the expense of making it expensive for everyone.

    I have relatives who live in Crawley, they moved there in the 80s when the property prices were dirt cheap. 40-60K would get you a decent terraced house with 3 bedrooms.

    In the last 5 years houses that were £100K have moved north of £250K. People cant get onto the outskirts of London so they have to venture out into these small towns. Next people will be buying flats for £300K in milton keynes!


    That's a good point
     
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    david64

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    not really, supply and demand would just make it uneconomical for people to just move here. EU membership just causes problems with housing. increasing rents and mortgages. The lower middle to working class will get a break.

    Could you clarify this? It seems you are implying the middle to working class will benefit from hosing prices that are rising dramatically; a point which you go on to essentially counter.

    Median house price to earnings: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7422/9820513953_6f3a2045a3_o.gif

    One of the surprising things about mass immigration is that Green-Party-types are now calling for building on green belt to accommodate whoever wants to set up in Britain. All this with the UK being the 3rd most densly population country in Europe (not including micro-nations).

    As for London house prices. I am ambivalent. It seems many people have a notion that there is an inherent right to live in central London regardless of income or whether they are even employed. Their desire to live in London unemployed trumps the rights of the 20-30 min. wage citizens whose personal tax contributions afford them such rights.

    As you can see from the above map, its not just London where house prices are moving way out of the realm of affordability for young people, yet I've never heard the same clamor from young people in the small, relatively economically deprived area I grew up in.

    There is an increasing race for people all over the world to settle in a handful of countries and youngsters to gravitate to their capital cities. In my opinion this is a mark of a lack of entrepreneurship - to latch on to something rather than create something themselves. I've decided to buck the trend by leaving the EU for a country where wages are 10% of that in the UK. If you have the will to persist, there are plenty of oysters you can create yourself.
     
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    Cobby

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    It's not possible to win an argument without making one.
    Exactly. Your incredibly subjective opinion pieces don't really qualify as arguments, so...

    Please find a way to get onto the EU referendum debate, with your complete inability to address anything directly or even know basic facts about the situation in Europe (as per your other post on the other thread), a leave vote would be inevitable.
    So far all I've done is point out your lack of objectivity. :confused:
     
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