You could point out to them that disposing of confidential waste without proper procedures could be against the data protection act (assumming it was not shredded)
You have made the correct desision to leave
In future make someone in the team the supervisor and they are the only contact point between the customer and your cleaning team
Instruct your team to just up sticks and leave if they get any offensive behavour for the customer or there staff and tell the supervisor to pass on a complaint to the senior company person available at the time, You have a duty to protect your employees from this sort of behaviour
Draw up some typical times for office cleaning using a standard office as a guide and use this for quoting adjusted for any differences
Any complaints about staff should be made in writting to you before any action is taken giving the time, location and the reason for the complaint
Draw up your own terms and conditions and include them on the back of every invoice
Good luck for the future
You have made the correct desision to leave
In future make someone in the team the supervisor and they are the only contact point between the customer and your cleaning team
Instruct your team to just up sticks and leave if they get any offensive behavour for the customer or there staff and tell the supervisor to pass on a complaint to the senior company person available at the time, You have a duty to protect your employees from this sort of behaviour
Draw up some typical times for office cleaning using a standard office as a guide and use this for quoting adjusted for any differences
Any complaints about staff should be made in writting to you before any action is taken giving the time, location and the reason for the complaint
Draw up your own terms and conditions and include them on the back of every invoice
Good luck for the future
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benion
- Original Poster
- #85
Before I gave my notice last week I offered to do some unpaid overtime to try and improve things. They are now insisting on an hour's unpaid overtime every day next week. I have told them to get stuffed. I have told them I am working to rule and not doing a minute over.
I am concerned they are going to refuse to pay the last bill and as solicitors it will be tough to sue them but I really think they are taking the piss asking for 5 extra hours next week.
I am concerned they are going to refuse to pay the last bill and as solicitors it will be tough to sue them but I really think they are taking the piss asking for 5 extra hours next week.
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I can quite understand your frustration, and am sure they are playing you for all they can get .. as much for free as possible!
But you too need to get serious with what you say. If one minute you say you will give them extra and then do not stand by your word, you are just not being professional.
I understand why things have changed, but I am not sure your are acting consistently. If you are not consistent then others will push you around.
Say only what you mean and are committed to follow through. Confirm in writing (contract) with all the ifs and buts covered.
We all wish you success, but it is time to take control and not complain about being abused. You have the power to walk and dictate your terms. It is your business. Not everything will happen straight away but it is up to you to see things through to the conclusion you determine.
But you too need to get serious with what you say. If one minute you say you will give them extra and then do not stand by your word, you are just not being professional.
I understand why things have changed, but I am not sure your are acting consistently. If you are not consistent then others will push you around.
Say only what you mean and are committed to follow through. Confirm in writing (contract) with all the ifs and buts covered.
We all wish you success, but it is time to take control and not complain about being abused. You have the power to walk and dictate your terms. It is your business. Not everything will happen straight away but it is up to you to see things through to the conclusion you determine.
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benion
- Original Poster
- #87
I took on a new cleaner YESTERDAY to see out the last bit of the contract. I told the client on Wednesday that I was doing this and that I would continue with the contract until his job was transferred to the new company or taken "in house" in line with the Transfer of Undertaking (Paid Employment) 2006 legislation, or TUPE. TUPE states when there is a service provision change, or a service is taken "in house" the employment rights of the cleaner are protected. I have been sent this email today:
Following your email below and your request to be released from your notice period early we can advise that we no longer request your services of cleaning as from Monday 24/06/13.
We would therefore appreciate it therefore if you would kindly advise your cleaner not to attend our offices on Monday. I will get all the items that belong to your company ready for collection on Monday afternoon so if you wish to collect them please advise me of the time and date you will be attending and I will ensure these are ready for you.
We can confirm that there will be no transfer of contracts to another company.
We would like to thank you for your services in the past and if you could advise of the above in respect of collection of your items in due course.
This is my response:
As I informed you verbally on Thursday 20th June 2013 and yesterday Friday 21st June 2013 my cleaner has employment rights protected by the Transfer of Undertakings (Paid Employment) 2006. Even if you take the cleaning service "in house" and employ a cleaner directly that has to be Nathan by law. I am surprised you allowed me to go forward and start Nathan's employment yesterday Friday 21st June 2013 in the knowledge you were ending the contract on Monday 24th June 2013.
Although I no longer want to work for XXXXX, I find it shocking that as solicitors you have such disregard for employment legislation.
I am instructing Nathan to attend work on Monday 24th June 2013 at 8 am and should you tell him to leave the site, then that will be your decision.
The way you chose to treat contractors is why I have wisely given my notice.
Kind regards,
I am ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED over this!!!
Following your email below and your request to be released from your notice period early we can advise that we no longer request your services of cleaning as from Monday 24/06/13.
We would therefore appreciate it therefore if you would kindly advise your cleaner not to attend our offices on Monday. I will get all the items that belong to your company ready for collection on Monday afternoon so if you wish to collect them please advise me of the time and date you will be attending and I will ensure these are ready for you.
We can confirm that there will be no transfer of contracts to another company.
We would like to thank you for your services in the past and if you could advise of the above in respect of collection of your items in due course.
This is my response:
As I informed you verbally on Thursday 20th June 2013 and yesterday Friday 21st June 2013 my cleaner has employment rights protected by the Transfer of Undertakings (Paid Employment) 2006. Even if you take the cleaning service "in house" and employ a cleaner directly that has to be Nathan by law. I am surprised you allowed me to go forward and start Nathan's employment yesterday Friday 21st June 2013 in the knowledge you were ending the contract on Monday 24th June 2013.
Although I no longer want to work for XXXXX, I find it shocking that as solicitors you have such disregard for employment legislation.
I am instructing Nathan to attend work on Monday 24th June 2013 at 8 am and should you tell him to leave the site, then that will be your decision.
The way you chose to treat contractors is why I have wisely given my notice.
Kind regards,
I am ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED over this!!!
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Sorry but you need to wise up here.
Why send in a cleaner when they've told you not to bother?
Why get emotional about it?
Why not walk away, and move on?
How much time / money / stress do you think it'll cost you to take a firm of solicitors to court for a few quid?
It's business, and if you can't take the knocks along with the profits then please have a word with yourself.
Good Luck.
Why send in a cleaner when they've told you not to bother?
Why get emotional about it?
Why not walk away, and move on?
How much time / money / stress do you think it'll cost you to take a firm of solicitors to court for a few quid?
It's business, and if you can't take the knocks along with the profits then please have a word with yourself.
Good Luck.
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benion
- Original Poster
- #89
I don't have to take them to court there are plenty of No Win No Fee lawyers who will assist Nathan and he has already told me he thought they would play silly buggers and if anything it is in his favour and he can sue for unfair dismissal.
I put a cleaner in there for the last part of the contract as I felt very uncomfortable there.
I am very protective of my cleaners and their rights. I will be the first to sack someone who is useless but a good worker has rights.
Plus if I tell him not to attend work on Monday I AM THE ONE liable if it goes to tribunal and I could lose a few grand over it.
I put a cleaner in there for the last part of the contract as I felt very uncomfortable there.
I am very protective of my cleaners and their rights. I will be the first to sack someone who is useless but a good worker has rights.
Plus if I tell him not to attend work on Monday I AM THE ONE liable if it goes to tribunal and I could lose a few grand over it.
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benion
- Original Poster
- #90
Sure makes me glad I have walked away from there.
I have calmed down emotionally now but I am a member of Peninsula Business Services and they have said I need to send Nathan in there on Monday or I could be facing a tribunal.
I told them he was starting on Wednesday. They could have easily told me at that stage not to start him. I think they have been as difficult as possible with me.
I have calmed down emotionally now but I am a member of Peninsula Business Services and they have said I need to send Nathan in there on Monday or I could be facing a tribunal.
I told them he was starting on Wednesday. They could have easily told me at that stage not to start him. I think they have been as difficult as possible with me.
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On what basis will you be facing a tribunal for someone you hired only a day ago?
They do not want a cleaner there, they have the right to refuse entry, so why put your cleaner to the trouble of going. Whether they have to pay for the notice period or not is a different matter, although personally I would just walk away and never talk to them again.
They do not want a cleaner there, they have the right to refuse entry, so why put your cleaner to the trouble of going. Whether they have to pay for the notice period or not is a different matter, although personally I would just walk away and never talk to them again.
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This is rubbish.
If Nathan only started working for you last week and had not done any work under the ending contract he cannot possibly take you to a tribunal.
Either TUPE applies and your clients or the new contractors are responsible for him, or TUPE does not apply in which case you can give him half an hour's notice that you can no longer employ him.
If Nathan only started working for you last week and had not done any work under the ending contract he cannot possibly take you to a tribunal.
Either TUPE applies and your clients or the new contractors are responsible for him, or TUPE does not apply in which case you can give him half an hour's notice that you can no longer employ him.
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Presumably you supply labour, equipment and materials for cleaning.
Is the new provider going to take over your equipment? - no
Is the new provider going to take over your materials? - no
Is your single member of staff part of an organised grouping that provide the service to this client? - no, if he is the only one he cannot be part of an organised grouping.
How then does TUPE apply?
Some organisations give advice that is based on a fear of being liable, rather than on the law.
Is the new provider going to take over your equipment? - no
Is the new provider going to take over your materials? - no
Is your single member of staff part of an organised grouping that provide the service to this client? - no, if he is the only one he cannot be part of an organised grouping.
How then does TUPE apply?
Some organisations give advice that is based on a fear of being liable, rather than on the law.
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Am I right in understanding that this Nathan has not actually worked there? And Monday would be his first day. Anyway he would be in his first week or two. I cannot understand why he would have redundancy rights regardless of TUPE.
I am not an employment lawyer, but Newchodge seems close to the mark.
I am not an employment lawyer, but Newchodge seems close to the mark.
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benion
- Original Poster
- #99
no he started and did a shift yesterday
i am no lawyer i am just going along with what peninsula are saying. they have always run a very professional service and i have always been happy with their advice so far....
i dunno really. i do not want to cause trouble but peninsula are scaring me a bit here saying i could get hit with a tribunal if i do not follow their advice
i am no lawyer i am just going along with what peninsula are saying. they have always run a very professional service and i have always been happy with their advice so far....
i dunno really. i do not want to cause trouble but peninsula are scaring me a bit here saying i could get hit with a tribunal if i do not follow their advice
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Dismissals in a TUPE situation are automatically unfair, which is obviously a worry IF this is a relevant transfer. However you can only claim unfair dismissal in this situation if you have 2 years' (or 1 year if you started before 6 April 2012) continuous service.
While TUPE can apply if a service is taken back in-house or given to another contractor, those are not the only criteria. The first is that there has to be a transfer of an undertaking or a service provision. If the transfer is of a service provision the staff have to be part of an organised grouping.
While TUPE can apply if a service is taken back in-house or given to another contractor, those are not the only criteria. The first is that there has to be a transfer of an undertaking or a service provision. If the transfer is of a service provision the staff have to be part of an organised grouping.
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The advantage of Peninsula is that they indemnify you from the compensation awarded in a tribunal provided you follow their advice to the letter.
The disadvantage may be that sometimes there advice is aimed at preventing a tribunal, so you may end up being told not to dismiss someone who is dismissable.
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benion
- Original Poster
- #102
I have spoken to Peninsula again. Even though this guy has no rights to a standard unfair dismissal there are several reasons (eg race discrimination) which are classified as automatic unfair dismissal and there is no qualifying period for this.
They said the solicitors firm are probably well aware of this and am trying to get me to do the dirty work by trying to stop him going in as this would amke me liable.
They said the solicitors firm are probably well aware of this and am trying to get me to do the dirty work by trying to stop him going in as this would amke me liable.
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benion
- Original Poster
- #107
They are now threatening me!
I went to collect my stuff today and they took me into this CCTV room and made me watch CCTV of one day there was a meeting in the accounts room. I did not want to disturb the meeting so I went to a desk and opened a notepad to leave a note for the member of staff. Just as I was writing the note the meeting ended so I put the pad back.
They have said they are keeping this on disc and are on the verge of calling the police as apparently I have gone in a private notepad and breached data protection. I have spoken to the police who say they are not interested and have spoke to a solicitor who says they are probably trying to scare me off as he thinks they will refuse to pay their last bill and this is a way of scaring me off the small claims court.
Has anyone else ever come across anything like this. It has really upset me.
I went to collect my stuff today and they took me into this CCTV room and made me watch CCTV of one day there was a meeting in the accounts room. I did not want to disturb the meeting so I went to a desk and opened a notepad to leave a note for the member of staff. Just as I was writing the note the meeting ended so I put the pad back.
They have said they are keeping this on disc and are on the verge of calling the police as apparently I have gone in a private notepad and breached data protection. I have spoken to the police who say they are not interested and have spoke to a solicitor who says they are probably trying to scare me off as he thinks they will refuse to pay their last bill and this is a way of scaring me off the small claims court.
Has anyone else ever come across anything like this. It has really upset me.
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As I've mentioned before, from your posts, it really does appear that running a cleaning business is not necessarily for you.
You appear to have had a number of unpleasant situations caused by a combination of 'difficult' clients and not having robust systems and processes in place such as your own terms and conditions and taking on clients that you said that you knew in advance would be unpleasant.
You also mention how much of your time this is taking up and your desire to spend more time with your family.
Could you not look at an alternative business model, or perhaps employment that plays to your previous skills and experience?
You mentioned that you have trained and worked as a doctor and have experience of mental health, so perhaps there's a not for profit out there that would be happy to have someone with your skills.
In this way you wouldn't have the pressure of difficult clients, running a business, managing staff and contracts, as well as providing a service yourself.
You appear to have had a number of unpleasant situations caused by a combination of 'difficult' clients and not having robust systems and processes in place such as your own terms and conditions and taking on clients that you said that you knew in advance would be unpleasant.
You also mention how much of your time this is taking up and your desire to spend more time with your family.
Could you not look at an alternative business model, or perhaps employment that plays to your previous skills and experience?
You mentioned that you have trained and worked as a doctor and have experience of mental health, so perhaps there's a not for profit out there that would be happy to have someone with your skills.
In this way you wouldn't have the pressure of difficult clients, running a business, managing staff and contracts, as well as providing a service yourself.
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I suspect they are well aware that you did not intention to see anything you shouldn't have seen, but they too are liable for data protection and it is a sensitive area for solicitors. To pick up a solicitor's notebook doesn't imply you respect the nature of their work and it might be a case for reviewing your contract (except for that is finished now anyway) It is not a criminal case. You did not break in deliberately to steal information. But you did act unwisely, possibly without thinking of the implications.
Of course they will not take you to court as they would be more liable for leaving the notepad out. They are the ones who need to protect the data they have got. The onus is on them.
You have got into a hugely confrontational situation, and solicitors are trained to be aggressive with words and (mis) constructions. While I am sure there are respectful, decent solicitors, it does seem the ones you are working for are fairly ruthless. You need to get them out of your mind and move onto something constructive and non-contentious.
I don't think that Ethical PR was knocking you but no-one likes to see how much you are being hurt in all this. And it was you who said in post #7 "To be honest I am thinking of walking away from the whole business altogether." It is not a failure to recognise where something is not right for younand walk. And in post #47 you said ' As a manic depressive I have to be very careful about exposing myself to stress and ultimately my health is the most important thing'
We all agree with you that your health is no 1. The stress of this is showing and you need to be well yourself to enjoy your husband and child. I don't think I could run a cleaning business, and I don't feel a failure for that. It's just not my thing.
Please re-read EthiscalPR's post and see she is being positive when saying 'Could you not look at an alternative business model, or perhaps employment that plays to your previous skills and experience?'
Of course they will not take you to court as they would be more liable for leaving the notepad out. They are the ones who need to protect the data they have got. The onus is on them.
You have got into a hugely confrontational situation, and solicitors are trained to be aggressive with words and (mis) constructions. While I am sure there are respectful, decent solicitors, it does seem the ones you are working for are fairly ruthless. You need to get them out of your mind and move onto something constructive and non-contentious.
I don't think that Ethical PR was knocking you but no-one likes to see how much you are being hurt in all this. And it was you who said in post #7 "To be honest I am thinking of walking away from the whole business altogether." It is not a failure to recognise where something is not right for younand walk. And in post #47 you said ' As a manic depressive I have to be very careful about exposing myself to stress and ultimately my health is the most important thing'
We all agree with you that your health is no 1. The stress of this is showing and you need to be well yourself to enjoy your husband and child. I don't think I could run a cleaning business, and I don't feel a failure for that. It's just not my thing.
Please re-read EthiscalPR's post and see she is being positive when saying 'Could you not look at an alternative business model, or perhaps employment that plays to your previous skills and experience?'
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benion
- Original Poster
- #113
Thank you Christine you are always very helpful and you cheer me up
I really cannot think of anything else I could do. I am just scared they will not pay their last bill which is for £700, but if they do this I will go to the small claims court whether or not they are solicitors.
I have sent them this:
Please find attached an amended invoice for June's cleaning to take into account no cleaning done this week.
I am not intimidated by any spurious allegations you wish to make about me and a solicitor has told me this is probably an attempt by you to get out of paying your last bill.`
If the bill is 15 days late it will be transferred to Daniels Silverman Debt Recovery and if that fails it will go to the small claims court.
If you are looking for someone to intimidate you have failed.
Regards,
I really cannot think of anything else I could do. I am just scared they will not pay their last bill which is for £700, but if they do this I will go to the small claims court whether or not they are solicitors.
I have sent them this:
Please find attached an amended invoice for June's cleaning to take into account no cleaning done this week.
I am not intimidated by any spurious allegations you wish to make about me and a solicitor has told me this is probably an attempt by you to get out of paying your last bill.`
If the bill is 15 days late it will be transferred to Daniels Silverman Debt Recovery and if that fails it will go to the small claims court.
If you are looking for someone to intimidate you have failed.
Regards,
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D
Deleted member 61074
- Original Poster
- #114
This is wrong on so many levels, but quite simply putting the word intimidated in the invoice twice quite clearly means you are. By telling them what you will do if they fail to pay within 15 days tells them you expect them not to pay.
You should send the invoice in the same way you have sent all previous invoices, late payment procedures should be in your contract.
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benion
- Original Poster
- #116
I have been told today that as a registered disabled person I actually have employment tribunal rights even though I am a contractor as I have been treated in a discriminatory manner. Not sure if I want to take solicitors on but if they do not pay I will take them all the way.
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For your own sake, fill your mind with new things, good things, enjoyable things. What price your own health?
You have had a battering with these people, I would be careful about going back for more. Even if you win the money you do not want to put yourself up as a punch ball. And you will come under scrutiny and things will be twisted.
I have a friend who was constructively dismissed and it seemed fairly obvious but she was up against a council and their employment solicitors. Even having worked in the legal profession, she had to call it a day as her health deteriorated under the stress.
Look at what is right in your life, a lovely husband and son; other contracts which go smoothly; your own achievements in getting your doctorate; overcoming prescription drug addiction. These are no mean achievements, and bode well for the future.
Life is not fair, but rarely rectified by going back to past injustices. It just robs you of more time and mental anguish.
I was helped a lot by some books, one started me off on a new thought pattern. It's an old book and from a Christian perspective, 'The power of positive thinking' by Norman Vincent Peale. Happy to lend you it if you want.
You have had a battering with these people, I would be careful about going back for more. Even if you win the money you do not want to put yourself up as a punch ball. And you will come under scrutiny and things will be twisted.
I have a friend who was constructively dismissed and it seemed fairly obvious but she was up against a council and their employment solicitors. Even having worked in the legal profession, she had to call it a day as her health deteriorated under the stress.
Look at what is right in your life, a lovely husband and son; other contracts which go smoothly; your own achievements in getting your doctorate; overcoming prescription drug addiction. These are no mean achievements, and bode well for the future.
Life is not fair, but rarely rectified by going back to past injustices. It just robs you of more time and mental anguish.
I was helped a lot by some books, one started me off on a new thought pattern. It's an old book and from a Christian perspective, 'The power of positive thinking' by Norman Vincent Peale. Happy to lend you it if you want.
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benion
- Original Poster
- #118
Firstly thank you Dunerider. I know you are right on that one. I wrote the email in anger, but knowing how angry I can get I deliberately did not send it and saved it instead.
Christine I am in 2 minds about taking it to a tribunal. It may be very stressful but someone at the company has said they will not pay the last bill so why the hell should they get away with this.
Christine I am in 2 minds about taking it to a tribunal. It may be very stressful but someone at the company has said they will not pay the last bill so why the hell should they get away with this.
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benion
- Original Poster
- #119
I would really appreciate some more advice on this one. Should I take them on...or wait to see if they should pay the bill. Should I just write it off?
I am someone who will fight and stand up for what I believe in, even if fighting legally qualified people is going to be tough.
I am definitively withdrawing my personal injury claim with them as I only discussed the injury with the solicitor dealing with the case and the next day I came in over 5 people asked how my knee was. I thought these things were supposed to be confidential...like seeing a GP.
I am someone who will fight and stand up for what I believe in, even if fighting legally qualified people is going to be tough.
I am definitively withdrawing my personal injury claim with them as I only discussed the injury with the solicitor dealing with the case and the next day I came in over 5 people asked how my knee was. I thought these things were supposed to be confidential...like seeing a GP.
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