How to check competitors turnover

[scott14]

Hi

I'm currently exploring some new ideas and Id be interested to know what company's in this field turnover. The profit and loss etc I'm not reallt interested in just the turnover.

I should imagine this is field the companies house - can some advice which of the many documents I need to be looking at ??

Also is there a way to check turnover of EU companies ??

Does anyone offer credit checking also of compaines ??

Thanks in advance

 

[Scalloway]

You will need a copy of their annual accounts which as I recall costs £1 to download. You may find that smaller companies may not disclose their turnover, as this is not a legal obligation for them.

 

[Vicarious]

Yes EU countries have similiar arrangements and are generally more advanced than the hopeless companies house (there is an organisation that was prime to benefit enormously from the internet, yet somehow fees are much higher and they have more not less staff)

Europe has a general obsession with information so for example no more so the French who for the smallest company you can get minute detail at griffe.fr

 

[David Griffiths]

Yes EU countries have similiar arrangements and are generally more advanced than the hopeless companies house (there is an organisation that was prime to benefit enormously from the internet, yet somehow fees are much higher and they have more not less staff)

Sorry but that's nonsense. Fees are not higher at all. In fact for filing annual returns they are lower now than they were 20 or 30 years ago, as are fees for company formations

And to say that they haven't benefitted from the internet is at the same level. It is possible to get almost any document within minutes for £1, and online formations are routinely done in three hours - it used to take six weeks - and we actually got one back in 14 minutes a couple of weeks ago. We also regularly file accounts online to meet deadlines. The current process is a bit flaky and long winded but once ixbrl is fully implemented that should remove that problem.

I can't comment on the number of staff, but as you seem in the know perhaps you'll tell us what is the increase in numbers, and also how many more companies they deal with now than in the past.

Oh, and fines imposed under the Companies Act aren't fees, and were well overdue to be increased.

 

[scott14]

Many thanks everyone !!!

Is it form 363a I need to download from companies house then ??

RE EU company's I Googled griffe.fr but only got a down'd website

Any direct links or a list by country where I can download info

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

This is what you need - Companies House

 

[Tom McClelland]

Bear in mind that a majority of competitors with turnover less than £5million will have filed Abbreviated Accounts only. These provide a minimum detail snapshot of the balance sheet, and no P&L information at all, and hence in many cases they tell you next to nothing about the company's trading history and prospects. Clearly if the balance sheet looks terrible you might guess that the company is struggling, but a highly profitable business that pays out a large dividend just before the accounting date will not be apparent.

When I was starting 12Pay up I compared the meerkat to see what the competition was doing. Out of about 8 SME rivals whose accounts I peeked at there was meaningful information about 1 of them, and only because they'd chosen to file full accounts. Although 12Pay itself files AA I'd be in favour of everyone filing full accounts, which have to be prepared for HMRC anyway. That would be a significant improvement to transparency.

 

[akirk]

Bear in mind that a majority of competitors with turnover less than £5million will have filed Abbreviated Accounts only. These provide a minimum detail snapshot of the balance sheet, and no P&L information at all, and hence in many cases they tell you next to nothing about the company's trading history and prospects. Clearly if the balance sheet looks terrible you might guess that the company is struggling, but a highly profitable business that pays out a large dividend just before the accounting date will not be apparent.

When I was starting 12Pay up I compared the meerkat to see what the competition was doing. Out of about 8 SME rivals whose accounts I peeked at there was meaningful information about 1 of them, and only because they'd chosen to file full accounts. Although 12Pay itself files AA I'd be in favour of everyone filing full accounts, which have to be prepared for HMRC anyway. That would be a significant improvement to transparency.

Absolutely right - many will not file more than necessary - however I would push an opposite view - I see no reason why people would wish to - I don't see how it increases transparency as full accounts are available to all those for whom it is relevant (HMRC / shareholders / etc.), others may want them, but have no right to them, so no need to provide any more - why would a company want its competitors to know?

Alasdair

 

[Tom McClelland]

There is a valid argument there, but I guess that I'd be happy to run with full disclosure, particularly if everyone else had to as well. And I don't see why the privacy argument doesn't apply equally to larger businesses, as long as they're unlisted. The turnover and B/S threshold for filing full accounts seems arbitrary and I'm not clear why any theshold is necessary when as you've pointed out the authorities and shareholders have the full facts anyway.

What, exactly, is the purpose of Abbreviated Accounts? Are they meeting that purpose? It seems to me that they lend the illusion of disclosure while the reality is that they are almost invariably opaque and tell the reader little or nothing. If we value the privacy of small ltd companies why not get rid of AA altogether?

 

[akirk]

There is a valid argument there, but I guess that I'd be happy to run with full disclosure, particularly if everyone else had to as well. And I don't see why the privacy argument doesn't apply equally to larger businesses, as long as they're unlisted. The turnover and B/S threshold for filing full accounts seems arbitrary and I'm not clear why any theshold is necessary when as you've pointed out the authorities and shareholders have the full facts anyway.

What, exactly, is the purpose of Abbreviated Accounts? Are they meeting that purpose? It seems to me that they lend the illusion of disclosure while the reality is that they are almost invariably opaque and tell the reader little or nothing. If we value the privacy of small ltd companies why not get rid of AA altogether?

Agreed - the logic is not cohesive...
I see little reason why accounts should be available if not listed...

Alasdair

 

[maxh]

Corporate espionage

 

[Vicarious]

Sorry but that's nonsense. Fees are not higher at all.

No you are not sorry. The fee for paper filing was doubled and no discount given for online filing

You said yourself their system is flaky (read crap) and of course they have benefited from the internet in a very very very backward and late way

If you want the staff numbers you can write to them like I did!

OP try infogreffe.fr is the official site and I see it is even in English now. If you go to google.fr and put in 'info societe' you will see lots of other sources

 

[Tom McClelland]

If you want the staff numbers you can write to them like I did!

That seems a bit weird. You've made an assertion, and when asked to back it up with facts and figures you've suggested that David do your research for you. If you have the answer (as you imply with your "like I did" remark) why not just post it here? :|

 

[Vicarious]

The fees and the behindness of it is self evident.

This is a discussion, not a courtroom so I can 'assert' as I like and you can respond as you see fit.

However I wasnt going to look in filing boxes but I did look on computer files to see the last time I responded on the issue. It seems my last correspondence on the issue was towards the end of 2006 so the following dear lady can give you a bang up to date response:

[FONT=&quot]Mary Taylor[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]EU & Corporate Affairs Policy Manager[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Policy & Planning Team[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Companies House[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Crown Way[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cardiff[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]CF14 3UZ[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My recollection was that she had said that there had been an increase in staff numbersand the justification was the increase in registrations. That was fair enough except there is a sea change in the way they work. They have gone from handling huge volumes of paper, checking, scanning, inputting to managing a portal and database where users input the data themselves
[/FONT]

I also noted that she said that there had been a 95% take up in paperless filing for the returns so the cost of processing plummets massively yet the fee stayed the same and doubled for paper filing.

This is a branch of government, I dont think they have performed and I like to do my bit to bring them to account

 

[scott14]

Just to bring it back to the question in hand - I knw I need to download the company accounts

is this what I want

AA 07/07/2009 FULL ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/12/07
Code AA sheet ??

 

[Tom McClelland]

Just to bring it back to the question in hand - I knw I need to download the company accounts

is this what I want

AA 07/07/2009 FULL ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/12/07
Code AA sheet ??

Yes, but as discussed earlier you will be very lucky if that document tells you anything useful. It is a minimal balance sheet with no P&L information at all. Is there not a later one that that? I think they should have filed their 2008 accounts by now, at least.

 

[scott14]

I'm only intrested in rough turnover figures - would this show anything at all relating to this or is it pot luck??

 

[Tom McClelland]

Yes, but as discussed earlier you will be very lucky if that document tells you anything useful. It is a minimal balance sheet with no P&L information at all. Is there not a later one that that? I think they should have filed their 2008 accounts by now, at least.

I'm just going to reverse myself. Because it is described as "Full Accounts" I expect that it includes a P&L as well. Though I'm not too conversant on how well the text descriptions of the accounts tie up with their actual contents. Anyhow, it is your best shot, and it costs a grand total of £1.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

yes full accounts should also include a profit and loss account - which will have turnover.

 

[Tom McClelland]

yes full accounts should also include a profit and loss account - which will have turnover.

I was misled (initially) by the AA label. Are accounts always labelled by CH as AA, whether they're abbreviated or not?

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I was misled (initially) by the AA label. Are accounts always labelled by CH as AA, whether they're abbreviated or not?

yes

On the page where you can select what you want to order the accounts will be AA

 

[Jaydee]

The A in this case standing for Annual rather than Abbreviated

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Such a pity they don't use AA for abbreviated and FA for full

 

[Tej]

Such a pity they don't use AA for abbreviated and FA for full

.. glad you have a great sense of humour...

 

[bettersales]

i find that competitive markets display greater turn-over rates than monopolistic markets and that turnover rates are increasing in the degree to which a newspaper trails its competition in market share. We find no evidence that the turnover-performance relationship varies with market structure. We discuss the implications of these findings for theories concerning competition and managerial employment contracting. The results appear most consistent with the hypothesis that the greater likelihood of liquidation in competitive markets leads to elevated turn-over rates.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

i find that competitive markets display greater turn-over rates than monopolistic markets and that turnover rates are increasing in the degree to which a newspaper trails its competition in market share. We find no evidence that the turnover-performance relationship varies with market structure. We discuss the implications of these findings for theories concerning competition and managerial employment contracting. The results appear most consistent with the hypothesis that the greater likelihood of liquidation in competitive markets leads to elevated turn-over rates.

Help - I have read this 3 times now and am lost. Can someone explain it please. Thanks

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Help - I have read this 3 times now and am lost. Can someone explain it please. Thanks

Me too:|:|:|:|

 

[Tom McClelland]

Help - I have read this 3 times now and am lost. Can someone explain it please. Thanks

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

that has brought make memories.

Friday school lunches were always the fritter version of that