Help with staff holidays

[dawncbn]

HI, I have 5 part time staff. 3 work a 3 day week and have 16 paid days leave. The trouble is they use them as they work!! Ie. One works, Tues, Wed, Thur. Has 16 days so only takes the 16 days on those days. Which means they are away from the salon for nearly 6 weeks!! I can not afford to carry on working like this. I took this place on just over a year ago and under the tuppie rules I took on the staff too. They say this is always the way they have worked. Two of them have been there for 10 years. The things is I have read that I can stipulate that they have to take them at certain times etc. Well I don't think that i am being unreasonable if I say their holidays have to be taken in blocks of 5 days. So they would have 3 whole weeks away from the salon. After all they are only working 3 days a week and if they cant organise things like dr's, dentist etc in the 4 days that they dont work then surely they are being unreasonable? I am desperate to keep my place afloat and I can't keep working just for them. I am working my butt off for nothing while I keep the place open for them. Help, am I right in taking this view? I want them to have a full week at a time and then be allowed 2 days unpaid holiday if they need it.

 

[Draugen]

My part-time staff accrue holiday on an hourly basis, rather than getting a set number of days off. For me, that means they end up with a far more reasonable amount of time off, rather than the scenario you present which happened to me previously also! As they also accrue the holiday as they work, it also prevents them from booking weeks and weeks off work at once, as it spreads their allowance over the year.

You might have already looked, but this page: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Timeoffandholidays/DG_10034642 has all the information you need.

 

[i234i]

How did you do about the switch Draugen? how did the staff react?

 

[Draugen]

I guess I'm quite lucky in that I employ mainly young people who are at school, college or university. On the whole, I find that most do not properly understand the concept of holiday, so it's easy to impose restrictions. Infact, just the other day one of them asked me if they were actually allowed to book a day off just to stay in bed! They couldn't get their head round the fact they were legally entitled to paid time off just to do nothing!

My full time staff currently get 28 days holiday per year (bank holidays are normal working days), but the part-timers don't seem very aware of their entitlement, so it's easy to chop and change things to suit.

 

[Tom McClelland]

HI, I have 5 part time staff. 3 work a 3 day week and have 16 paid days leave. The trouble is they use them as they work!! Ie. One works, Tues, Wed, Thur. Has 16 days so only takes the 16 days on those days. Which means they are away from the salon for nearly 6 weeks!! I can not afford to carry on working like this. I took this place on just over a year ago and under the tuppie rules I took on the staff too. They say this is always the way they have worked. Two of them have been there for 10 years. The things is I have read that I can stipulate that they have to take them at certain times etc. Well I don't think that i am being unreasonable if I say their holidays have to be taken in blocks of 5 days. So they would have 3 whole weeks away from the salon. After all they are only working 3 days a week and if they cant organise things like dr's, dentist etc in the 4 days that they dont work then surely they are being unreasonable? I am desperate to keep my place afloat and I can't keep working just for them. I am working my butt off for nothing while I keep the place open for them. Help, am I right in taking this view? I want them to have a full week at a time and then be allowed 2 days unpaid holiday if they need it.

From this April the minimum paid holiday that you can give them, legally, is 12.1% of the hours that they work. That comes to just under 6 weeks a year, regardless of how many days a week they work. So, apart from maybe putting in some rules about when they should take their holidays (like booking a reasonable amount of time in advance, and not clashing their holidays with each other, and compulsorily taking two of the weeks at Christmas perhaps) I'm not sure that there is much that you can do.

EDIT: You cannot consider days that they wouldn't have worked anyway to be holiday, either paid or unpaid. The 12.1% requirement is paid holiday, on days that the person would normally work.

 

[dawncbn]

From this April the minimum paid holiday that you can give them, legally, is 12.1% of the hours that they work. That comes to just under 6 weeks a year, regardless of how many days a week they work. So, apart from maybe putting in some rules about when they should take their holidays (like booking a reasonable amount of time in advance, and not clashing their holidays with each other, and compulsorily taking two of the weeks at Christmas perhaps) I'm not sure that there is much that you can do.

EDIT: You cannot consider days that they wouldn't have worked anyway to be holiday, either paid or unpaid. The 12.1% requirement is paid holiday, on days that the person would normally work.

Even though its going up in April, part time is still pro rata. So 3 days = 16.4 days if you work it out on the berr site. Also, it states that the employer can decide when holidays are taken.

 

[Tom McClelland]

Even though its going up in April, part time is still pro rata. So 3 days = 16.4 days if you work it out on the berr site.

Yes, that's what I said, on a 3 day week that is more that 5 weeks. You can't count days that the person wouldn't have worked as holiday. Someone who works a regular pattern, whether it be 1 day a week or 7 days a week, will get 5.4 weeks a year paid holiday.

Also, it states that the employer can decide when holidays are taken.

True. However where the past practice has been that employees can take it whenever they like, established over a long period, I suspect that this may not be easily altered if the employees don't want it altered. That might count as a change in their contract, which they don't have to accept. (But I'm not an expert in employment law, so I could be wrong).

 

[Lasting Designs]

The last company I worked for had split holiday entitlement, ie 3 weeks on their say so and the remaining entitlement on request. It remains to be seen if that would work for you, but it might be something that could be given some thought.

 

[dawncbn]

True. However where the past practice has been that employees can take it whenever they like, established over a long period, I suspect that this may not be easily altered if the employees don't want it altered. That might count as a change in their contract, which they don't have to accept. (But I'm not an expert in employment law, so I could be wrong).

Thank you for the advice. I am now just doing new contracts for them. I understand whay you say about the employees not wanting it altered but there is so much squabbling about, who is off and when, its a nighmare. It clearly is a system that is not fair to them all equally and its certainly not good for the business.
As its a last ditch to save the business then surely its unreasonable for the staff not to "put themselves out", in order to save their job? There are so many people out there that have lost their jobs or had to go on to short weeks. I am juggling everything at great expense and my sanity to keep it open. I am getting nothing from it anymore, it has had all my savings, my time, I am even getting divorced over the damn thing. So some "sacrifice", from them is not asking too much is it?

 

[Barnie]

do you open bank holidays, if not and some staffs day is to fall on that said day its a paid holiday day

split the year

so

april to june -1 week
july to oct -2 weeks
sept to december 1 week
january to march 1 week

remaining holiday on request

no more than 1 person off at any time

3 weeks notice of any holiday period




hairdressers are 2 a penny so if they dont like it they can leave


put this down in statement of particulars not contract as you can change it with notice

 

[helenthemum]

Put it another way.

If you were working for Tesco (for example) you would expect time off paid (holiday leave). Why should it be different for your staff.

I have 3 part-time members of staff 2 do 3 mornings and one does 4 mornings.

The holiday leave for the 3 days is 16.4 days you can round up but not down. On occassions when I know they have doctors appointments I have arranged for them to come in on one of their days off instead of taking a days holiday.

I generally ask them to book holiday 2 weeks in advance longer if they are planning to go away. This saves arguments. I have also asked them not to take leave during October which is my busiest month.

I also offer them flexible working with in reason which means give and take on both sides.

I know flexible working wouldn't work for you as you have customers who have set appointments.

Unfortunately for small business we now have to pay staff (even if on sick leave) almost 6 weeks holiday per year.

 

[dawncbn]

Put it another way.

If you were working for Tesco (for example) you would expect time off paid (holiday leave). Why should it be different for your staff.

I have 3 part-time members of staff 2 do 3 mornings and one does 4 mornings.

The holiday leave for the 3 days is 16.4 days you can round up but not down. On occassions when I know they have doctors appointments I have arranged for them to come in on one of their days off instead of taking a days holiday.

I generally ask them to book holiday 2 weeks in advance longer if they are planning to go away. This saves arguments. I have also asked them not to take leave during October which is my busiest month.

I also offer them flexible working with in reason which means give and take on both sides.

I know flexible working wouldn't work for you as you have customers who have set appointments.

Unfortunately for small business we now have to pay staff (even if on sick leave) almost 6 weeks holiday per year.

Well I don't get what you're saying! I am not trying to not pay them their 16.4 days holiday at all. What I am saying is, a), I am not Tesco's so I don't have the kind of staff cover they have. b). I want them to take their holidays in blocks of 5 days. ie: week in the begining or end of the year, 2 weeks in the summer. So on those weeks that they have their holiday they are paid for the whole week not just the 3 days. That way they still get block time off for holidays abroad but its more condensed. For example how do the big factories get away with it? They have full closure. So full timers have their holiday dates dictated by the closure. And the part timers have to take their full entitlement at the same time.
They then have 1.4 days left over, plus 2 unpaid if they wish. And yes, I have let any member of staff change days if they needed to as long as they let their clients know.
Again, I repeat, I am not trying in anyway to get out of paying or let staff have their full paid days leave.

 

[Tom McClelland]

All sounds fair enough to me.

Just be careful. Try to get this to happen without dispute, if you can possibly manage it. Even a facetious tribunal claim would cost you a lot of money, even if you win it easily.

 

[safia]

I am still working part time while setting up my business. My holidays are worked on an hourly basis. This is much easier to work out especially if your emplyees work different hours each day. My holidays are worked out at 4 weeks per year plus 8 public holidays as I am expected to work those. If I work more public holiday hours than my contracted hours I can take those as holiday or get paid for them e.g this year I have worked 11.5hrs public holiday. 1.5hrs are not worth taking as holiday, so I will get paid for them.

 

[helenthemum]

Sorry I missed understood you.

From my understanding of the holiday entitlement if they onyl work 3 days a week, you cannot ask them to take they holiday in blocks of five days unless it is spread over 2 weeks.

But you can ask them to take the 3 days they do work at a given time, i.e. Christmas, Easter, Summer as you have said.

I used to work in a factory and they had 2 week shut down a Christmas and 2 weeks during the summer. Everyone had to take their holiday then like it and lump it. It saved the bosses having to work out shift rotas and make sure every stage of the manufactoring process was covered. Part-timers were included they just weren't paid for the days they didn't normally work during the shut down.

 

[KateCB]

I would talk to ACAS or join the FSB (£100.00 a year) and get free legal advice for as long as it takes to sort this out.

Holidays - we do not allow more than 1 person in the same department off at the same time - we could not run efficiently if we did - AND if we did, then there would be a question of whether that position was really warranted and perhaps it could be made redundant.......

Also - 1 days leave = 1 weeks notice. 1 weeks leave = 2weeks notice. 2 weeks leave = 1 month notice. And then it is first come first served - NO holidays are allowed during November as this is our hell time!

There will be emergencies, however Doctors/dentist appointments should be made for the days they are not at work, however you CAN legally deduct pay for time off I believe, or asked for the time to be made up. The only time this changes is for maternity appointments where you MUST allow them to attend appointments as required regardless of the impact to your business.

How approachable are they - do you have a good working relationship with them? Can you sit them down and 'tell them how it is' - peraps when they realise the problems they are causing the business and ultimately their jobs, they may think again and a compromise could be reached which could be written into their new contracts?

Your personal circumstances are not their problem though, so No, they won't make sacrifices because you are - you are seen as the big, bad, rich (haha) employer, and even your sad personal situation will not sway those who only work 3 days, feel they are underpaid and overworked and that you have it all....been there, done that as you can probably tell!