Help-PPL License for Chinese Take Away

[ning]

I recently recieved a tonne of letters from PPL, i initially ignored them as they look suspicious and i have never heard of them.

However we then got a letter from oracle asking us for payments. This prompted me to call them and ask what and why do we have to pay since we do not play music at the take away. The lady informed me that there was a recorded message where we said we play music from a CD player......this is where it gets suspicious..... my parents own this take away and do not speak or understand english....therefore to get them to say that is not possible.

she told me to call up PPL, they said that fine if we don't have a cd player do we have a TV. I said yes we do but it is for personal usage only. however since it is place outside where customer can see it i have to pay.

is this correct i am confuse and annoyed with this......the fee they want us to pay is not small and for a small take away we cn't afford this. they also mention PRS WHAT IS THIS???

Can i not pay this PPL, what if i take the TV inside now will i still need to pay?

thank you in advance

 

[Scalloway]

The PPL are well known for hassling businesses. Their website says

If you play recorded music or music videos in public, you will almost certainly be legally required to have a PPL licence.

http://www.ppluk.com/

They represent the interests of record companies and the performers for the use of recorded music in public performances.

The PRS do the same on behalf of the song writers, composers and publishers.

http://www.prsformusic.com/users/bu...musicforbusinesses/pages/doineedalicence.aspx

‘In public’ means, broadly speaking, to an audience outside of his/her domestic or home circle. If the person does not obtain the required licence they may risk infringing copyright.

 

[easiprint]

To play music you will need PRS and PPL licences. They are well known for trying to catch people out, things like phoning businesses up and listening for music in the background. As far as I know, whilst they are correct and legal in asking for these payments, they tend not to get too heavy in enforcing the fines - plenty more small businesses to harass who will just pay up.

Never heard about them being involved in TV's however. You will of course need a TV licence to cover the business address, but surely the PRS/PPL are overstepping the mark if they are trying to claim you need them for a TV?

 

[Scalloway]

There are music performances on tv too.

 

[Andrew46]

The PRS for Music website states:
"Money is due to PRS for Music for any public performance of music, whether live or recorded, and from radio and television broadcasts and online.*
The same will apply to PPL.
The PRS tariff may not be as high as you think. Have a look at:
http://www.prsformusic.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/PPS Tariffs/HR-2011-07 Tariff.pdf

Look at para 4.4.1 Terrestrial television and/or
satellite/cable television (without video)Up to 30 seating capacity [base licence] is only £117.21 [plus VAT] (per year).

The PPL fee is at:
http://www.ppluk.com/en/I-Play-Music/Businesses/How-much-does-a-licence-cost/Business-type-122/

For a restaurant/café, the fee appears to be £119.53 . For a small establishment there may be a 50% reduction.

If you wish to avoid any fees, I suggest you ensure the volume is turned down so that it is not audible to customers. In fact if there were more than one person in the kitchen then technically that too could be a "public" performance!

 

[arcon5]

They also use companies like G4S to visit premises and hand deliver a letter for the proprietor and record whether they are playing music along with the business contact information. They seem to be ruthless in their quest to get everybody to pay.

EDIT: Sorry, just realised you're referring to PPL, I refer to PRS here

 

[ning]

thank you for your replies everyone.

just wondering if i pay PPL do i have to pay for PRS as well, this economic climate is not helping at all. with all these extra costs how the hell does the government expect small businesses to survive.

i said to them (PPL) i bring the TV inside, but they are still want me to pay, guess i pay for one year membership then i can surely cancel it right???

 

[Andrew46]

Well it is the rights holders charging the business not the government!
I am afraid both PRS and PPL licences are payable.
If you cancel after one year, they will just assume you are still using the TV and demand fees, unless you can prove otherwise.
If you want to avoid any fees, then turn down the volume.
If you move the TV "inside" (the kitchen?) the licence fees may still be payable if two or more workers can hear the music. If technically possible with a TV (?), any workers in the kitchen would have to listen through earplugs in order to avoid a "public performance" which is what the fees are being charged for!
If I am right about the level of fees, the business would only have to pay well under £1 a day for both licences.

 

[arcon5]

I believe there was a case recently with the PRS versus an office containing just a few members of staff with the radio on. The office being closed off from the public, found in the office' favour

 

[Christine Hough]

Yes, but check this out

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17379436


I would think that a take away where the TV is for private use of the workers primarily is not too different from a dentist playing a radio.

 

[ning]

i see, hmmm :| well the issue is that we live on top of the take away. since my parents spend most their time downstairs they move the tv downstairs. therefore, if we move it away from the counter and inside the shop does that mean its is domestic use only. so no need to pay PPL. so sorry for all these questions. thank you everyone who has helped so far

 

[Andrew46]

If it will be only your parents who will hear the music on the TV, then that in my view would be a private or domestic use and not a "public performance" and no licence would be needed.
That is on the basis no customers or other workers could hear the music. The right to demand a licence fee arises from any " public performance" of the music. There is no statutory definition of "public" and it has been interpreted in case law. One case held that music played aloud in a private dining room which could be heard by customers dining in a public part of the restaurant was a performance in "public".
Another case held that music played aloud to factory workers was a public performance.
You could resist the demand and see what happens. However the PRS would be reluctant to publicly concede the point and would take the case all the way to the Supreme Court and the European Court!
However annoying it may be, perhaps it would be better for your peace of mind (and enjoyment of the customers) to pay £1 or less per day for the licences. By the way, what do other take-away restaurants do?

I am not sure about the case arcon5 refers to. There was a case brought by PRS in 2007 in Scotland against Kwik-Fit in which PRS demanded licence fees for playing radio music in workshops at loud volume. The Scottish judge declined to grant an interlocutory (pre-trial) injunction to PRS; however counsel for Kwik-Fit conceded that if copyright music was audibly performed to members of the public or to workers as a group that could well constitute infringement (Performing Right Society v Ltd Kwik-Fit Group Ltd [2007] CSOH 167). I believe in the end Kwik-Fit settled and paid up.

Christine Hough refers to the European Court's decision in the Italian dentist case. Notwithstanding the BBC headline, that decision turned on an interpretation of the EU directive and its interaction with Italian law. In fact the EU Directive specifically states that Member States should be able to provide for more far-reaching protection for owners of rights related to copyright than that required by the provisions laid down in this Directive in respect of broadcasting and communication to the public.

 

[ckylefc]

PPL representatives are very rude! They phoned on a Saturday morning asking if someone who pays the bills is around. We have received invoices for a license of over £450.
We have a TV but this tv is out of sight of customers and we only play a foreign video on demand programmes which you can stop, rewind and fast forward, does playing on demand programmes mean we have to pay for a music license?
I have searched in the PPL's database of the artists and composers which maybe included in the tv programmes and they are not found in the database.

 

[UKMusicLicenseManagement]

Unless your 'music use' falls within a current PRS and PPL discretionary charging policy (whereby PRS and/or PPL reserve the right but choose not to charge) then a TV outside of the domestic environment, ie: within a business premises, even if purely for staff requires:

BBC TV license.... Yes.
PRS for music license.... Yes.
PPL license.... Yes.

One such Discretionary Charging Policy currently in force with both PRS & PPL is for Lone Workers, however, this is only applicable if their is only ever one person on their own within the premises, if anyone else at any time, staff, customer, visitor, guest or anyone else at any time ever could/can/does walk in & hear the TV (in this case) then this policy is not applicable.

If you play music videos/films then you would need additional licenses such as: VPL license (available via PPL), MPLC license (Motion Picture Licensing Corporation) & possibly more.

Hope this helps.

If you would like to know more about PRS/PPL music licensing please let me know.

All the best & regards.

 

[paddy84]

Unless your 'music use' falls within a current PRS and PPL discretionary charging policy (whereby PRS and/or PPL reserve the right but choose not to charge) then a TV outside of the domestic environment, ie: within a business premises, even if purely for staff requires:

BBC TV license.... Yes.
PRS for music license.... Yes.
PPL license.... Yes.

One such Discretionary Charging Policy currently in force with both PRS & PPL is for Lone Workers, however, this is only applicable if their is only ever one person on their own within the premises, if anyone else at any time, staff, customer, visitor, guest or anyone else at any time ever could/can/does walk in & hear the TV (in this case) then this policy is not applicable.

If you play music videos/films then you would need additional licenses such as: VPL license (available via PPL), MPLC license (Motion Picture Licensing Corporation) & possibly more.

Hope this helps.

If you would like to know more about PRS/PPL music licensing please let me know.

All the best & regards.

Bloody hell, do I also need a license to breathe aswell?

 

[paddy84]

Unless your 'music use' falls within a current PRS and PPL discretionary charging policy (whereby PRS and/or PPL reserve the right but choose not to charge) then a TV outside of the domestic environment, ie: within a business premises, even if purely for staff requires:

BBC TV license.... Yes.
PRS for music license.... Yes.
PPL license.... Yes.

One such Discretionary Charging Policy currently in force with both PRS & PPL is for Lone Workers, however, this is only applicable if their is only ever one person on their own within the premises, if anyone else at any time, staff, customer, visitor, guest or anyone else at any time ever could/can/does walk in & hear the TV (in this case) then this policy is not applicable.

If you play music videos/films then you would need additional licenses such as: VPL license (available via PPL), MPLC license (Motion Picture Licensing Corporation) & possibly more.

Hope this helps.

If you would like to know more about PRS/PPL music licensing please let me know.

All the best & regards.

Bloody hell, do we also need a license to breathe aswell?

 

[UKMusicLicenseManagement]

Bloody hell, do we also need a license to breathe aswell?

Hi paddy84

In the future I am sure we'll all need one (at least one) for that too... Probably one for breathing in & another for breathing out!

At the moment though, I'm glad there is not!

 

[Deleted member 138423]

If both PRS and PPL are actually right and in fact you do need to have a licence to listen to music via radio/tv/CD/PC etc.., why do they act in such an underhand manner?

 

[Steve Sellers]

Radio is not covered. It depends whether or not you are classed as 'broadcasting' if you are liable for the fees.

 

[UKMusicLicenseManagement]

Radio is not covered. It depends whether or not you are classed as 'broadcasting' if you are liable for the fees.

Unfortunately within the UK any music use (played or performed/live or recorded) outside of the 'domestic environment' is deemed as a public performance.
Therefore assuming that the lyricist(s), composer(s), publisher(s), performer(s) and/or recording company(s) are members of either and/or PRS/PPL you will require a license from PRS/PPL even for a radio.

Two of the most common misconceptions are regarding TV & Radios.

TV outside of the domestic environment requires BBC TV License, PPL & PRS licensing, additional licenses are required if music videos, films etc are used.

Radio requires PPL & PRS licensing and contrary to popular assumption there are NO radio stations that will exempt you from the requirement as all stations use music at some point during their broadcast whether it be during a commercial break or background music during an interview, discussion etc, etc, etc.

Licensing for broadcasting is an entirely seperate issue to that of public performance outside of the domestic environment.

Regards


UK Music License Management