Help Needed...Interview Under Caution Insolvency Service

[phils1981]

I have received correspondence from the insolvency investigation and I am extremley worried and unsure what to do next. I have tried to contact legal support but everywhere seems to be closed

'You occupied a position with xxxx in which you were expected to safeguard, or not act against, the financial interests of the company, and that you dishonestly abused that position, with intent, to make a gain for yourself or another, contrary to Section 4 Fraud Act 2006, namely by:

The sale of a static caravan owned by xxxx in November 2020, with the proceeds of £48k being paid into a personal bank account'

I’m really unsure as to where they have this information from. I did not have any control over (Sole Director) or his actions and I absolutely have not benefitted from the sale of a static caravan lodge.

Company went into insolvency in 2020 and I had worked there for 18 months prior as ‘commercial manager’. I had no experience or qualifications as a commercial manager. Xxxx was the only director of xxxx and the business was extremely chaotic.

In relation to the sale of the caravan or static lodge mentioned I have no idea or recollection of where the money went but presumably it went to xxxx personal bank account. Things were being sold and at the time xxxx was going through marriage and financial difficulties inflated by his addictions.

I did not act against the interests of the company and I have not personally benefitted from the sale of anything to do with xxxx

It should also be noted that I was an employee and not a director. Xxxx used a reputable accountant to do all his returns and financial statemnets

Please let me know next steps and I really would appreciate any support on this

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Just tell the truth and who you feel may have sold the assets
If they felt that an employee had really sold a company asset they would have called the police by now

 

[MikeJ]

Get a lawyer.

 

[WaveJumper]

Yep lawyer up ......... are you sure (worth checking) that XXXX had not added you to CH records as a director ?

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

Hi @phils1981 ,

Is the message from a government body (Official Reciever or Insolvency Service) or from a private insolvency practice?

In either case, I would first recommend getting in touch with them ASAP to discuss how they have come to this conclusion, and for you to speak with them honestly and openly, and be willing to provide any evidence you can (such as personal bank statements for this period) to evidence your defence.

As others have suggested, given the value of the claim, you may wish to instruct a solicitor to advise/represent you. I'd be happy to make a recommendation to firm that specialises in this area of law if you need.

 

[phils1981]

Yep lawyer up ......... are you sure (worth checking) that XXXX had not added you to CH records as a director ?

Thanks for the reply. Yes I am sure this isn't the case.

 

[phils1981]

Hi @phils1981 ,

Is the message from a government body (Official Reciever or Insolvency Service) or from a private insolvency practice?

In either case, I would first recommend getting in touch with them ASAP to discuss how they have come to this conclusion, and for you to speak with them honestly and openly, and be willing to provide any evidence you can (such as personal bank statements for this period) to evidence your defence.

As others have suggested, given the value of the claim, you may wish to instruct a solicitor to advise/represent you. I'd be happy to make a recommendation to firm that specialises in this area of law if you need.

Hi Chris

The letter is from the Insolvency Service yes.

That's good to know. I wasn't aware that I could contact them to discuss how they have come to this conclusion. My other concern is the fact that the interview is only 2 weeks away 14th Jan 25.

Yes I would like to have some support/expertise on this as I finding the whole thing very worrying. I am not a director now and happy to never become one but Im worried this could affect my current job

Given the summary above what is the probable outcome from this meeting?

Thanks again for your help it feels better to have talked about it on here

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

Yes I would like to have some support/expertise

I'll private message you shortly with a recommendation.

Given the summary above what is the probable outcome from this meeting?

Impossible to say, assuming you wish to defend against this claim. If you do not respond/defend, then you'll be looking at a directors ban for a number of years, plus recovery of the £48k, and possibly a fraud conviction.

 

[Newchodge]

Did you, personally, as part of your employment, arrange the sale of a caravan or static lodge that belonged to the company? If you did, did you instruct a solicitor to handle the sale?

 

[Daybooks]

Hi @phils1981 ,

Is the message from a government body (Official Reciever or Insolvency Service) or from a private insolvency practice?

In either case, I would first recommend getting in touch with them ASAP to discuss how they have come to this conclusion, and for you to speak with them honestly and openly, and be willing to provide any evidence you can (such as personal bank statements for this period) to evidence your defence.

As others have suggested, given the value of the claim, you may wish to instruct a solicitor to advise/represent you. I'd be happy to make a recommendation to firm that specialises in this area of law if you need.

As a matter of interest are there regulations or code of conduct that prohibits them from making claims that they either know may be false or have no substantial reason to believe in its truth? In other words some consequence for making reckless claims.

 

[phils1981]

Did you, personally, as part of your employment, arrange the sale of a caravan or static lodge that belonged to the company? If you did, did you instruct a solicitor to handle the sale?

 

[phils1981]

Did you, personally, as part of your employment, arrange the sale of a caravan or static lodge that belonged to the company? If you did, did you instruct a solicitor to handle the sale?

It is very unlikely that I would have dealt with the sale of this static lodge and would likely have been dealt with by the director or company accountants but Im not completely sure as it was such a long time ago.

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

As a matter of interest are there regulations or code of conduct that prohibits them from making claims that they either know may be false or have no substantial reason to believe in its truth? In other words some consequence for making reckless claims.

I'm not too sure to be honest. However the Insolvency Service are understaffed and underfunded, so there's very little benefit to them pursuing a case or claim that would ultimately be a complete waste of time - time that could be spent pursuing other more solid cases/claims.

I do follow a number of solicitors who post their results when achieving successful outcomes when defending against director ban claims. None of them ever comment on counter claim action (or similar) against the Insolvency Service.

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

It is very unlikely that I would have dealt with the sale of this static lodge and would likely have been dealt with by the director or company accountants but Im not completely sure as it was such a long time ago.

"Very unlikely" seems incredibly vague. Were I an investigator for the Insolvency Sevice, I might even consider that answer willfully obtuse. No disrespect but a £48k static caravan is a significant item, even if it was a long time ago. Either you did or you didn't - you will be expected to be able to recall this when answering the Insolvency Service's questions.

 

[phils1981]

"Very unlikely" seems incredibly vague. Were I an investigator for the Insolvency Sevice, I might even consider that answer willfully obtuse. No disrespect but a £48k static caravan is a significant item, even if it was a long time ago. Either you did or you didn't - you will be expected to be able to recall this when answering the Insolvency Service's questions.

Sorry I don't mean to be vague but I am not 100% sure. I know there was a Insovency Specialist working with the company at the time and the accountants. I personally would not have been able to have authorised such a transaction.

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

Sorry I don't mean to be vague but I am not 100% sure.

Whilst I appreciate that you cannot remember what you cannot remember, I can only warn you that the Insolvency Service won't find that answer satisfactory.

 

[Newchodge]

It is very unlikely that I would have dealt with the sale of this static lodge and would likely have been dealt with by the director or company accountants but Im not completely sure as it was such a long time ago.

May I suggest that you think it through, step by step?
Was there a caravan or was it a static lodge?
Who used it and for what?
Do you remember anyone discussing it being for sale or sold?
If it were you, who would you have instructed to make a sale - estate agent, solicitor, caravan site owner?
Do you recall dealings with any of that kind of person?
Could you put £48K of the company's money into any bank account?

I can't remember would be a very poor answer on its own.

 

[Elliot Green]

I'll private message you shortly with a recommendation.


Impossible to say, assuming you wish to defend against this claim. If you do not respond/defend, then you'll be looking at a directors ban for a number of years, plus recovery of the £48k, and possibly a fraud conviction.

The poster said they were not a director. Taking that at face value and if it is capable of applying to all species of director, suggests prima facie no ban in general terms, subject of course to clarification of the facts and the way conduct was effected by all concerned.

It is not clear if the poster was ever a type of director which could mean the facts are different or capable of being misunderstood.

The allegations have been made so the burden of proof is usually on the person promoting the allegation.

 

[japancool]

What was your actual position in the company?

 

[Elliot Green]

"Very unlikely" seems incredibly vague. Were I an investigator for the Insolvency Sevice, I might even consider that answer willfully obtuse. No disrespect but a £48k static caravan is a significant item, even if it was a long time ago. Either you did or you didn't - you will be expected to be able to recall this when answering the Insolvency Service's questions

Aver

What was your actual position in the compan

What was your actual position in the company?

A good question.

 

[Elliot Green]

"Very unlikely" seems incredibly vague. Were I an investigator for the Insolvency Sevice, I might even consider that answer willfully obtuse. No disrespect but a £48k static caravan is a significant item, even if it was a long time ago. Either

Under Section 236 questions *usually* cannot be tainted by allegations otherwise they *may* risk being oppressive. This is not Section 236 but there might be similar concepts.

Hi Chris

The letter is from the Insolvency Service yes.

That's good to know. I wasn't aware that I could contact them to discuss how they have come to this conclusion. My other concern is the fact that the interview is only 2 weeks away 14th Jan 25.

Yes I would like to have some support/expertise on this as I finding the whole thing very worrying. I am not a director now and happy to never become one but Im worried this could affect my current job

Given the summary above what is the probable outcome from this meeting?

Thanks again for your help it feels better to have talked about it on here

As it appears they have asserted facts that it seems you *might* not be on all fours with, usually you can courteously *test* a prosecuting authority's version of the facts. To do that one way might be by asking them for the evidence they rely upon to support such factual assertions.

 

[WaveJumper]

OP said they were not a director but in a thread said

“Yes I would like to have some support/expertise on this as I finding the whole thing very worrying. I am not a director now and happy to never become one but Im worried this could affect my current job”

So was you a director at some point in this company

 

[phils1981]

May I suggest that you think it through, step by step?
Was there a caravan or was it a static lodge?
Who used it and for what?
Do you remember anyone discussing it being for sale or sold?
If it were you, who would you have instructed to make a sale - estate agent, solicitor, caravan site owner?
Do you recall dealings with any of that kind of person?
Could you put £48K of the company's money into any bank account?

I can't remember would be a very poor answer on its own.

May I suggest that you think it through, step by step?
Thank-you yes I have now done this and found it helpful. Answers to your points below…

Was there a caravan or was it a static lodge?
Static Lodge

Who used it and for what?
It was rented out to the general public by the directors wife who managed the bookings

Do you remember anyone discussing it being for sale or sold?
Yes I remember it being discussed to be sold and it actually being sold

If it were you, who would you have instructed to make a sale - estate agent, solicitor, caravan site owner?
Im confident the owner of the static lodge (director) arranged the sale and did so directly with the site owners direct. I believe they had their own in house solicitors. I also believe the money from the sale went straight into the directors personal bank account

Do you recall dealings with any of that kind of person?
No I don’t remember dealing with the sale

Could you put £48K of the company's money into any bank account?
Yes I had the authority to move the £48k to any bank account but as above I believe the proceeds went straight into the directors own personal bank account

 

[phils1981]

The poster said they were not a director. Taking that at face value and if it is capable of applying to all species of director, suggests prima facie no ban in general terms, subject of course to clarification of the facts and the way conduct was effected by all concerned.

It is not clear if the poster was ever a type of director which could mean the facts are different or capable of being misunderstood.

The allegations have been made so the burden of proof is usually on the person promoting the allegation.

I was never a director of the company

 

[phils1981]

What was your actual position in the company?

I was commercial manager

 

[phils1981]

Aver



A good question.

I was Commercial Manager. I was employed in that position with no experience or qualification

 

[Elliot Green]

I was never a director of the company

There are 3 types of director:
- registered (at companies house)
- de facto
- shadow

All three types qualify as director.

 

[phils1981]

There are 3 types of director:
- registered (at companies house)
- de facto
- shadow

All three types qualify as director.

I was non of these. I was part of employee management team that reported to the sole director

 

[phils1981]

As it appears they have asserted facts that it seems you *might* not be on all fours with, usually you can courteously *test* a prosecuting authority's version of the facts. To do that one way might be by asking them for the evidence they rely upon to support such factual assertions.

Would I do this via a solicitor or myself?

 

[phils1981]

OP said they were not a director but in a thread said

“Yes I would like to have some support/expertise on this as I finding the whole thing very worrying. I am not a director now and happy to never become one but Im worried this could affect my current job”

So was you a director at some point in this company

Sorry for not being clearer. No I was never Director of this company

 

[japancool]

I was commercial manager

No, I mean what was your role? What were your duties and areas of responsibility? It seems unusual to me that a "commercial manager" would have the authority to transfer large amounts of money out of a company account without, at least, the countersignature of the company accountant or finance manager, so it's important to understand what you actually did there.

 

[Newchodge]

May I suggest that you think it through, step by step?
Thank-you yes I have now done this and found it helpful. Answers to your points below…

Was there a caravan or was it a static lodge?
Static Lodge

Who used it and for what?
It was rented out to the general public by the directors wife who managed the bookings

Do you remember anyone discussing it being for sale or sold?
Yes I remember it being discussed to be sold and it actually being sold

If it were you, who would you have instructed to make a sale - estate agent, solicitor, caravan site owner?
Im confident the owner of the static lodge (director) arranged the sale and did so directly with the site owners direct. I believe they had their own in house solicitors. I also believe the money from the sale went straight into the directors personal bank account

Do you recall dealings with any of that kind of person?
No I don’t remember dealing with the sale

Could you put £48K of the company's money into any bank account?
Yes I had the authority to move the £48k to any bank account but as above I believe the proceeds went straight into the directors own personal bank account

Then that is what you tell the Insolvency Service. Good luck!

 

[Elliot Green]

Would I do this via a solicitor or myself?

Anyone can choose to represent themselves. Whether or not it is a good idea or advisable depends on their skillset.

 

[UK Contractor Accountant]

I’m really unsure as to where they have this information from. I did not have any control over (Sole Director) or his actions and I absolutely have not benefited from the sale of a static caravan lodge.

Company went into insolvency in 2020

I assume Liquidators were appointed to wind the company up?

They must picked up from the review of the records/asset register missing assets and made a report to the IS. The sole Director is likely to have put you in the frame.

Are you able to give the name of the company as the Liquidators Report would have to be filed at Companies House?

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

as the Liquidators Report would have to be filed at Companies House?

I suspect at this stage the only information available would be an abbreviated version of the Statement of Affairs. Even if the first liquidators report has been filed, there is unlikely to be an info helpful to OP. They are better off contacting the IP and the IS for info about the claim.

 

[Newchodge]

Op you might try contacting a criminal defence solicitor. They are usually available. While they may not have much knowledge of commercial law, they are experts in sniffing out whether there is any evidence to support an alleagtion and assisting in interviews under caution.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

Just tell the truth and who you feel may have sold the assets
If they felt that an employee had really sold a company asset they would have called the police by now

It's not a police matter, it's a civil matter.

 

[Newchodge]

It's not a police matter, it's a civil matter.

I think Jeremy means that if an employee illegally sold the property of their employer it would be a criminal matter.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

Op you might try contacting a criminal defence solicitor. They are usually available. While they may not have much knowledge of commercial law, they are experts in sniffing out whether there is any evidence to support an alleagtion and assisting in interviews under caution.

I think an insolvency solicitor would be better in the circumstances.

 

[Newchodge]

I think an insolvency solicitor would be better in the circumstances.

They probably would, but the OP was having trouble contacting anyone and the interview is only 8 days away. Would they be able to react that quickly? The advantages of a criminal defence solicitor are their extensive experience of interviews under caution and their availability for whenever the interview takes place.