Furloughed Workers

[Mr D]

Nor did I say it was - what I was getting at is that if the director is made redundant, the business ceases to exist as it was the director who generated the revenue.

Would he not remain a director even though not a paid employee?

 

[Newchodge]

Nor did I say it was - what I was getting at is that if the director is made redundant, the business ceases to exist as it was the director who generated the revenue.

That is the point. If the business would have ceased to exist without support for the employee(s) (whether a director or not) there is support until the business can retart.

 

[LTDcompanier]

So the staff have to be not working and sent home?

What about an estate agents for example. The new business has dried up and there's no money coming in so you can't pay them.

But you want the staff in the office so they can try and drum up new business, such as phoning previous contacts, being in the office or on the phones in case a customer comes in.

Just curious, but what about that scenario?

If you send them home you won't get any more business, but if you don't send them home, you don't get any help with their wages.

 

[Mr D]

Losses await each of us. This crisis won't just go away

Well, losses await some.
Not every business is affected by something in the same way.

A few may well do pretty well - the places that do meal plans - jane plan etc may do great so long as they can get ingredients.
Can't see their demand going down.

 

[Ecommerce&MailOrderGuy]

This is a very trick situation for an employer to handle. Early last week we sent out a letter to try to reassure staff and explaining that they would be paid full pay if they had to be absent.
Our current policy is a maximum of 10 days paid sickness per year. This usually kicks in on day 4 of a period of sickness absence - but we wanted to offer improved terms during this extraordinary period.
We didn't want anyone with symptoms coming in.
BUT we have a business to run (e-commerce) and as we are in the gardening sector our peak is the next 4-5 months - having been very quiet for last 4 or 5 months.
Around 1% of the british population probably have this virus at the moment (rule of thumb said by a government advisor was number of deceased x 1000). What we don't want is panic and everyone running to the hills.

Later in the week the government made their 80% wages pledge. But doesn't this mean that there is a danger of my entire workforce leaving their desks? How many weeks will this 80% be paid? Where is the incentive to come in?

I must be reading this wrong?

 

[Mr D]

This is a very trick situation for an employer to handle. Early last week we sent out a letter to try to reassure staff and explaining that they would be paid full pay if they had to be absent.
Our current policy is a maximum of 10 days paid sickness per year. This usually kicks in on day 4 of a period of sickness absence - but we wanted to offer improved terms during this extraordinary period.
We didn't want anyone with symptoms coming in.
BUT we have a business to run (e-commerce) and as we are in the gardening sector our peak is the next 4-5 months - having been very quiet for last 4 or 5 months.
Around 1% of the british population probably have this virus at the moment (rule of thumb said by a government advisor was number of deceased x 1000). What we don't want is panic and everyone running to the hills.

Later in the week the government made their 80% wages pledge. But doesn't this mean that there is a danger of my entire workforce leaving their desks? How many weeks will this 80% be paid? Where is the incentive to come in?

I must be reading this wrong?

Judging by the comments of a few on here plus what have seen elsewhere your peak may be starting soon.
People with time on their hands in isolation or while feeling well enough to potter around but not well enough to go out - may want to do some gardening. When can't go out maybe get the garden looking and smelling nice.


80% from what I gather is for 3 months. Possibly extended - at the moment no one knows enough to plan beyond a few months as regards the virus. We don't even know a month away but have to plan anyway.
Incentive is being sacked if not coming in? Plus 100% pay rather than 80%.

 

[UKSBD]

I suspect that once the full details come out the only businesses that will use the system will be;

Businesses with long time employees where it will be expensive to make them redundant
Businesses who *Really* value their employees and want to retain them
Businesses with low paid employees where it might work out cheaper than paying SSP

I shouldn't think many employees with less than 5 years service will be offered it unless the company really values them.

Hopefully companies will be taking in to consideration the costs involved of hiring people again once things are better and decide to retain staff rather than have those extra costs in the future.

 

[ecommerce84]

For instance what if the employer decides not to bother? What if only half the workforce is going off - how do you select? etc etc

This could really open a can of worms.

At my new place of work we were told early in the week that some of us would be asked to take 8 weeks unpaid leave. Others got to keep their jobs, working 4 days for 80% of pay, and some just 2 days for 40% of pay.

As you can imagine the people that were told to take unpaid leave were not very happy and there was a definite feeling of being thrown under the bus and an inevitable (small) feeling of resentment towards those that kept their jobs.

Now though these same people actually stand to receive 80% of their pay for 0 days working, which won’t go down well at all with those that kept their jobs and are still having to go in for 4 days and the element of bitterness might now switch the other way.

Of course our employer could choose not to apply to receive the 80% wage cover but that would almost certainly mean the staff that have been asked to take unpaid leave wouldn’t come back and they are skilled staff that would take time and money to replace and train properly.

Unfortunately for me, I wasn’t ok February’s payroll so it looks like I’ll miss out either way.

 

[ADW]

I suspect that once the full details come out the only businesses that will use the system will be;

Businesses with long time employees where it will be expensive to make them redundant
Businesses who *Really* value their employees and want to retain them
Businesses with low paid employees where it might work out cheaper than paying SSP

I shouldn't think many employees with less than 5 years service will be offered it unless the company really values them.

Hopefully companies will be taking in to consideration the costs involved of hiring people again once things are better and decide to retain staff rather than have those extra costs in the future.

Every one of my employees regardless of time with us will be offered furloughed option where there is not enough work, which currently is for nearly all staff. As you have an option of not adding the 20% I don't see any reason not to offer all staff even if they have been employed just a few months. Don't see why employer would drop them currently. This time might allow for things to become more clear on best way forward.

 

[ADW]

This is a very trick situation for an employer to handle. Early last week we sent out a letter to try to reassure staff and explaining that they would be paid full pay if they had to be absent.
Our current policy is a maximum of 10 days paid sickness per year. This usually kicks in on day 4 of a period of sickness absence - but we wanted to offer improved terms during this extraordinary period.
We didn't want anyone with symptoms coming in.
BUT we have a business to run (e-commerce) and as we are in the gardening sector our peak is the next 4-5 months - having been very quiet for last 4 or 5 months.
Around 1% of the british population probably have this virus at the moment (rule of thumb said by a government advisor was number of deceased x 1000). What we don't want is panic and everyone running to the hills.

Later in the week the government made their 80% wages pledge. But doesn't this mean that there is a danger of my entire workforce leaving their desks? How many weeks will this 80% be paid? Where is the incentive to come in?

I must be reading this wrong?

Employees can't furlough themselves and could only self isolate. Whether you pay them then is a different matter. If you have work for staff then you don't have any furloughed. If you have more work than you can handle there are loads of people looking for temp work that have found themselves with little income.

 

[ADW]

So the staff have to be not working and sent home?

What about an estate agents for example. The new business has dried up and there's no money coming in so you can't pay them.

But you want the staff in the office so they can try and drum up new business, such as phoning previous contacts, being in the office or on the phones in case a customer comes in.

Just curious, but what about that scenario?

If you send them home you won't get any more business, but if you don't send them home, you don't get any help with their wages.

You could keep a skeleton staff on for chasing biz and covering the basics and have the others off fully which are the only ones then covered by 80%.

 

[Awinner2]

I suspect that once the full details come out the only businesses that will use the system will be;

Businesses with long time employees where it will be expensive to make them redundant
Businesses who *Really* value their employees and want to retain them
Businesses with low paid employees where it might work out cheaper than paying SSP

I shouldn't think many employees with less than 5 years service will be offered it unless the company really values them.

Hopefully companies will be taking in to consideration the costs involved of hiring people again once things are better and decide to retain staff rather than have those extra costs in the future.

Responsible employers should put all employees that are no longer required (but who certainly will be needed sometime in the future) onto the furloughed employee scheme. Plus take back all those pushed out as they can claim back to 1st March on the scheme but must designate the missing days as extended leave and then move onto furloughed leave. Any staff that there is still work for stay on normal payroll.

 

[UKSBD]

As you have an option of not adding the 20%

Has that been clarified yet?

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

Normally useless words we’ve all learned in the past 12 months:

Prorogued

Furloughed

 

[Horse1uk]

Good Evening All, im a SME with 16 employees in the construction and property industry, although i thought some of the initiatives were good they seem to be caveated. One of my lads suffers with Crones, hes a very good young Sparky but has asked to be furlonged as UK Gov have now told High Risk people to self isolate, i dont blame him but he isnt going to like SSP and sees a good way of getting out of it with the 80% deal, my interpretation is he would go onto SSP immediately as would anyone that self isolated before the announcement on Friday. At the moment i haven't had to lay off anyone yet and we have only had a few smaller jobs cancelled. Wouldnt everyone be furlonging otherwise ? Thank you in advance for any responses.

 

[ADW]

Has that been clarified yet?

Below was from HMRC in relation to the 80%

You will remain employed while furloughed. Your employer could choose to fund the differences between this payment and your salary, but does not have to.

 

[Mr D]

Good Evening All, im a SME with 16 employees in the construction and property industry, although i thought some of the initiatives were good they seem to be caveated. One of my lads suffers with Crones, hes a very good young Sparky but has asked to be furlonged as UK Gov have now told High Risk people to self isolate, i dont blame him but he isnt going to like SSP and sees a good way of getting out of it with the 80% deal, my interpretation is he would go onto SSP immediately as would anyone that self isolated before the announcement on Friday. At the moment i haven't had to lay off anyone yet and we have only had a few smaller jobs cancelled. Wouldnt everyone be furlonging otherwise ? Thank you in advance for any responses.

With the 80% you would have to fund that until government pays you back via HMRC - late April onwards.
By what people are saying it doesn't have to be all staff on it. Just the ones you choose to have on furlough.

However will this breed resentment? 80% for doing nothing versus 100% for working hard all day every day?

 

[UKSBD]

Below was from HMRC in relation to the 80%

You will remain employed while furloughed. Your employer could choose to fund the differences between this payment and your salary, but does not have to.

Yes, but does this mean they can choose to still pay their salary?

i.e.
if they earn £4000 a month the Government pay £2500 but the employer can choose to pay the other £1500

 

[Horse1uk]

With the 80% you would have to fund that until government pays you back via HMRC - late April onwards.
By what people are saying it doesn't have to be all staff on it. Just the ones you choose to have on furlough.

However will this breed resentment? 80% for doing nothing versus 100% for working hard all day every day?

Hi Mr D, that not really my question, does an employee that has to take Gov advice have to go on SSP rather than being Furonged ? as i say we have work and haven't had to make any choices on lay offs yet, surely someone somewhere will be watching all this ?

 

[UKSBD]

I still think the employer will have to pay 20%
but we shall see, it's all a bit vague at the moment

 

[Mr D]

Hi Mr D, that not really my question, does an employee that has to take Gov advice have to go on SSP rather than being Furonged ? as i say we have work and haven't had to make any choices on lay offs yet, surely someone somewhere will be watching all this ?

Trouble is an announcement is short sharp and to the point.
The devil is in the details - which are published days or weeks later.

And may not give definitive answer to your question.

I do know not every 'at risk' person is forting up. Not having sufficient supplies, not having sufficient money, not giving up their job, not giving up responsibilities. Some are still working.

 

[Newchodge]

So the staff have to be not working and sent home?

What about an estate agents for example. The new business has dried up and there's no money coming in so you can't pay them.

But you want the staff in the office so they can try and drum up new business, such as phoning previous contacts, being in the office or on the phones in case a customer comes in.

Just curious, but what about that scenario?

If you send them home you won't get any more business, but if you don't send them home, you don't get any help with their wages.

Correct. Furloughed staff cannot do any work for their employer

 

[Newchodge]

This is a very trick situation for an employer to handle. Early last week we sent out a letter to try to reassure staff and explaining that they would be paid full pay if they had to be absent.
Our current policy is a maximum of 10 days paid sickness per year. This usually kicks in on day 4 of a period of sickness absence - but we wanted to offer improved terms during this extraordinary period.
We didn't want anyone with symptoms coming in.
BUT we have a business to run (e-commerce) and as we are in the gardening sector our peak is the next 4-5 months - having been very quiet for last 4 or 5 months.
Around 1% of the british population probably have this virus at the moment (rule of thumb said by a government advisor was number of deceased x 1000). What we don't want is panic and everyone running to the hills.

Later in the week the government made their 80% wages pledge. But doesn't this mean that there is a danger of my entire workforce leaving their desks? How many weeks will this 80% be paid? Where is the incentive to come in?

I must be reading this wrong?

It is only available to employers who would, otherwise have laid off their staff. Employees cannot apply. Employers cannot get it if they have work for their staff to do.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

If he’s a decent lad then I’d try to do right by him if he’s happy to take 80% of wage. Not like anyone will be checking in the current climate

 

[Horse1uk]

If he’s a decent lad then I’d try to do right by him if he’s happy to take 80% of wage. Not like anyone will be checking in the current climate

Id of thought the same, but my worry is, whats stopping everyone hitting the 80% wages clause and not going off sick, its too easy. Were have to wait and see what the Gov release in the coming Days.

 

[Dovecote]

Hi

We are an event hire company with everything cancelled until at least June.

However we have 11 HGV drivers and some van drivers and some warehouse workers and I am looking for work for them all ie 2nd tier company for an agency and am now having some success with this . I have 8 out today and 4 tomorrow so far just to try to being a bit of income in to pay their wages.

However its all a bit of a faff to arrange and coordinate and they are moaning about doing multidrops and unfamiliar work, so it would be 'easier' to just furlough most of them but who to choose - clearly you choose all the ones who are not so multi skilled - so the van drivers and warehouse workers.

We could keep a few of the HGV people on short hours to do essential maintenance , refurbish furniture etc , they had all agreed to do 4 days so 80% of wages. last week before all these arranged.

So, if I read this correctly, the less qualified / lazy ones are sat at home on 80% wages whilst the better ones are here working to get 80%

It would be much fairer if you could furlough half of them for the 1st month, bring them back and furlough the next half for the next month. Is that possible does anyone know or it seems very unfair ?

Many thanks

 

[Newchodge]

Hi

We are an event hire company with everything cancelled until at least June.

However we have 11 HGV drivers and some van drivers and some warehouse workers and I am looking for work for them all ie 2nd tier company for an agency and am now having some success with this . I have 8 out today and 4 tomorrow so far just to try to being a bit of income in to pay their wages.

However its all a bit of a faff to arrange and coordinate and they are moaning about doing multidrops and unfamiliar work, so it would be 'easier' to just furlough most of them but who to choose - clearly you choose all the ones who are not so multi skilled - so the van drivers and warehouse workers.

We could keep a few of the HGV people on short hours to do essential maintenance , refurbish furniture etc , they had all agreed to do 4 days so 80% of wages. last week before all these arranged.

So, if I read this correctly, the less qualified / lazy ones are sat at home on 80% wages whilst the better ones are here working to get 80%

It would be much fairer if you could furlough half of them for the 1st month, bring them back and furlough the next half for the next month. Is that possible does anyone know or it seems very unfair ?

Many thanks

It may be but the regulations have not yet been produced.

 

[UKSBD]

It doesn't say the Government will pay 80% of the employees wages

it says'

"HMRC will reimburse 80% of furloughed workers wage costs"

I think this shows that the employer will still have to pay the full wage but only be able to claim 80% back

 

[Displaycentreuk]

I have just spoken with an employment law professional who is adamant that the employer will not have to pay the 20%. I still dont see it this way but it is unusual for someone like that to be so sure when the government guidance has yet to be published.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

I have just spoken with an employment law professional who is adamant that the employer will not have to pay the 20%. I still dont see it this way but it is unusual for someone like that to be so sure when the government guidance has yet to be published.

If they’re so sure, then it may follow that they can’t be trusted, as they couldn’t possibly have any more facts than have been released so they’re making it up.

 

[Awinner2]

Yes, but does this mean they can choose to still pay their salary?

i.e.
if they earn £4000 a month the Government pay £2500 but the employer can choose to pay the other £1500

Yes that is correct.

 

[Awinner2]

I still think the employer will have to pay 20%
but we shall see, it's all a bit vague at the moment

Only if the employer wishes to make up the shortfall

 

[UKSBD]

Yes that is correct.

Yes, but it is that line that has caused the confusion about the 20%

Some people are reading it that the employer will have a choice on the 20%, we don't know that

 

[UKSBD]

Only if the employer wishes to make up the shortfall

We don't know that yet

 

[Awinner2]

Yes, but it is that line that has caused the confusion about the 20%

Some people are reading it that the employer will have a choice on the 20%, we don't know that

That is what the Gov briefing said when the announcement was made.

 

[Awinner2]

We don't know that yet

Again that is what was said during the live briefing meeting that I watched.

 

[Bushman]

Some people are reading it that the employer will have a choice on the 20%, we don't know that

This link makes it clear that it is optional, about half way down the page
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...bout-covid-19/covid-19-guidance-for-employees

 

[UKSBD]

This link makes it clear that it is optional, about half way down the page
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-to-employers-and-businesses-about-covid-19/covid-19-guidance-for-employees

no it doesn't

It says "Your employer could choose to fund the differences between this payment and your salary"

IE
that could mean, if the salary is £4,000, the employer could choose to pay the extra £1,500

I'm only speculating, we don't know yet, but we shouldn't assume anything yet

 

[Bushman]

no it doesn't

It says "Your employer could choose to fund the differences between this payment and your salary"

IE
that could mean, if the salary is £4,000, the employer could choose to pay the extra £1,500

I'm only speculating, we don't know yet, but we shouldn't assume anything yet

Why would they stop you paying more?

 

[UKSBD]

Why would they stop you paying more?

That's got nothing to do with what I'm saying

I'm saying
The government may only pay 80% of "the figure the employer pays".