Furlough, latest guidance

[qqcs]

Do I have to pay my employee or can they wait until end of april? In other word can I claim it without paying them? Does hmrc need a proof of payment?

 

[Mr D]

I would assume that means filing accounts, not general bookkeeping/accounting

Though if business isn't running as such at the time then any bookkeeping can be left a while.
A few weeks anyway.

 

[Mr D]

Do I have to pay my employee or can they wait until end of april? In other word can I claim it without paying them? Does hmrc need a proof of payment?

Presumably you would be running the payroll.
Can the employee cope with not being paid until then?

Can you cope if you have to pay end of April but haven't had the money from HMRC by then?

We don't know that 100% of claims will be paid on day 1 (end of April). If there are any problems then some may be paid in May. Or later.

 

[Aniela]

Insert FB Link here - Removed due to new member posting limits

That's in regards to being a sole employee. A sole employee is not the same as a sole director.

You can have multiple directors with only one of them being considered an employee via PAYE.

So the point still seems to stand. It hasn't been stated if a sole director can be furloughed.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Millions.

We have these places called schools. While set up to babysit children they also provide a common educational background for the population.

I would beg to differ!

 

[Newchodge]

Do you have a link to where Martin Lewis stated that? I've been following his updates and haven't seen that mentioned yet, but may have missed it.

In regards to the guy saying "operational tasks such as accounts was permitted when furloughed" - I believe that would just be filing accounts, that's what the consensus has been from most of the 'experts' anyway.

PLEASE remember that Martin Lewis, great as he is at some things, is NOT an HR expert and, frankly, much of his advice on this is wrong.

 

[Newchodge]

For those asking about sole director furlough please see my exchange with KrisDylan startin at post 59

 

[Mr D]

I would beg to differ!

What? That's schools provide a common educational background or that millions attend them?

 

[Paolo Scaglioni]

Regarding point 6 - "Furlough must last for at least 3 weeks and can be renewed."
Will the 3 weeks minimum furlough be continuous (ie 21 consecutive calendar days encompassing a normal 15 working days) or a minimum of 15 working days amassed cumulatively within the 3 month duration of the scheme? I personally would like the to bring staff back for one or two full working days (paid at my expense and not the furlough scheme) and then re-furlough for a time and then bring back for one day etc.... What's your opinion on this ? I am in the printing business.

 

[Newchodge]

Regarding point 6 - "Furlough must last for at least 3 weeks and can be renewed."
Will the 3 weeks minimum furlough be continuous (ie 21 consecutive calendar days encompassing a normal 15 working days) or a minimum of 15 working days amassed cumulatively within the 3 month duration of the scheme? I personally would like the to bring staff back for one or two full working days (paid at my expense and not the furlough scheme) and then re-furlough for a time and then bring back for one day etc.... What's your opinion on this ? I am in the printing business.

It is 3 continuous calendar weeks. Each furlough period must be at least 3 weeks.

 

[Newchodge]

Do I have to pay my employee or can they wait until end of april? In other word can I claim it without paying them? Does hmrc need a proof of payment?

If you can you should pay on normal payroll date. Your proof will be your RTI, which you should run with the actual amount you are paying.

For most employers who pay monthly, most of March would be normal pay anyway. If paying before claiming is an issue the banks should offer a facility. Once it is running you can claim just before you are due to pay staff, but you can only claim once wvery 3 weeks. Not sure yet how that will work for weekly paid staff.

 

[Dahu371]

So would it be ok to furlough a staff member for 3 weeks, then pay them for 1 or 2 days of work, then put them on furlough again?

 

[Newchodge]

So would it be ok to furlough a staff member for 3 weeks, then pay them for 1 or 2 days of work, then put them on furlough again?

Yes, if they agree or their contract r furlough agreement allow it.

 

[Mister G]

Is the cafe registered for business rates - and set at zero?

Just be aware that redundancy could be expensive.

Really bad luck to take on a business at this time.

The rent is £9500 annually so doesn't qualify for business rates so I would say its not registered for business rates

 

[Mister G]

Did you keep the same employer PAYE reference ( no idea if that is actually possible - so just asking )

Thats something id have to ask the accountant, I'm assuming we set up a new paye reference

 

[Mr D]

The rent is £9500 annually so doesn't qualify for business rates so I would say its not registered for business rates

Can still be registered.

My rent was £6200 a year or so, had a business rates bill every year for £0 and had to notify council when I vacated the premises.

If you aren't registered then no grant.

 

[Mister G]

In what way did you ‘take over’ the cafe - did you buy the shares in the existing Ltd company or take it on with a new one?

If you kept the existing company, they’ll be on payroll for the 28th feb even if you are using a different service to run your payroll

We purchased the business as a going concern (goodwill, fixtures & fittings) and took on the lease. We formed our own ltd company, the previous owner was operating as a non limited company, think it was a partnership between husband & wife.

I've been informed by our accountant that we're liable for the holiday pay that the staff had accrued for the previous owner, but that doesn't make sense to me as they received P45's and then were re-employed by us????

 

[Mister G]

Can still be registered.

My rent was £6200 a year or so, had a business rates bill every year for £0 and had to notify council when I vacated the premises.

If you aren't registered then no grant.

Thanks for that info, that's really helpful to know and I'll look into it straight away. I know We pay council tax, does that count!

 

[Newchodge]

We purchased the business as a going concern (goodwill, fixtures & fittings) and took on the lease. We formed our own ltd company, the previous owner was operating as a non limited company, think it was a partnership between husband & wife.

I've been informed by our accountant that we're liable for the holiday pay that the staff had accrued for the previous owner, but that doesn't make sense to me as they received P45's and then were re-employed by us????

It's called TUPE, and you really should have found out all about it before committing to take on a business with staff. Your staff got P45's from their previous employer becasue they are no lond=ger on their payroll scheme. They btransferred to you with their continuous service and rights (inclkuding unused holiday) intact. There still appears to be some diagreement about whether TUPE's employees can be furloughed and you can get the grant for their wages, at the mment it looks doubtful.

 

[Mr D]

Thanks for that info, that's really helpful to know and I'll look into it straight away. I know We pay council tax, does that count!

You pay council tax personally.

Business rates are what the business is liable for. Which for low value sites can be zero.

 

[Mister G]

It's called TUPE, and you really should have found out all about it before committing to take on a business with staff. Your staff got P45's from their previous employer becasue they are no lond=ger on their payroll scheme. They btransferred to you with their continuous service and rights (inclkuding unused holiday) intact. There still appears to be some diagreement about whether TUPE's employees can be furloughed and you can get the grant for their wages, at the mment it looks doubtful.

Thank you for your comments, I had verbally agreed with the previous owner that he would settle up what was owing to the staff but after we signed on the dotted line he said that the staff didn't want to take it and wanted to carry it over instead, to which the staff said that he had persuaded them to carry it over. I was very naive as this was my first venture into buying a business, lesson learned and fortunately in the grand scheme of things its not a lot of holiday that's owing

 

[Mr D]

We purchased the business as a going concern (goodwill, fixtures & fittings) and took on the lease. We formed our own ltd company, the previous owner was operating as a non limited company, think it was a partnership between husband & wife.

I've been informed by our accountant that we're liable for the holiday pay that the staff had accrued for the previous owner, but that doesn't make sense to me as they received P45's and then were re-employed by us????

Whoever you used for advice on the purchase should have mentioned TUPE regulations. You take staff on, warts and all. Everything accrued.

 

[Paolo Scaglioni]

Many thanks for replying to my post. Are you getting the "3 continuous calendar weeks" from HMRC or is it your opinion based on your experience of these things (vastly greater than mine I am sure). If I need to call in a member of staff to undertake a job because, for example, the employee who has continued to work (printing hand sanitiser labels) falls ill or has to self-isolate then I could suddenly need to pay approx £1600 - 14 days of furlough money which I now cant claim.

My example is not flipent - on Monday we will be printing exactly that along with printed film connected with loo roll distribution. At present 75% of my staff are furloughed.

 

[Mister G]

Thanks for that info, that's really helpful to know and I'll look into it straight away. I know We pay council tax, does that count!

You pay council tax personally.

Business rates are what the business is liable for. Which for low value sites can be zero.

my mistake, I thought we paid council tax for the business but the payment to council was something else.

 

[Newchodge]

Many thanks for replying to my post. Are you getting the "3 continuous calendar weeks" from HMRC or is it your opinion based on your experience of these things (vastly greater than mine I am sure). If I need to call in a member of staff to undertake a job because, for example, the employee who has continued to work (printing hand sanitiser labels) falls ill or has to self-isolate then I could suddenly need to pay approx £1600 - 14 days of furlough money which I now cant claim.

My example is not flipent - on Monday we will be printing exactly that along with printed film connected with loo roll distribution. At present 75% of my staff are furloughed.

It is definitely the rule, but as always, I cannot now find it. The closest I can find, in the guidance that is linked in the first post on this thread is this bit in the part about Claims:

You can only submit one claim at least every 3 weeks, which is the minimum length an employee can be furloughed for.

I am afraid that, if you need an employee to do 10 minutes work within the furlough period you lose the grant for the period from the start of the furlough to the end of the work, when they can then be furloughed. You will have to pay the employee 100% for all of that time, unless you have a layoff clause in your contract of employment.

 

[Mr D]

Many thanks for replying to my post. Are you getting the "3 continuous calendar weeks" from HMRC or is it your opinion based on your experience of these things (vastly greater than mine I am sure). If I need to call in a member of staff to undertake a job because, for example, the employee who has continued to work (printing hand sanitiser labels) falls ill or has to self-isolate then I could suddenly need to pay approx £1600 - 14 days of furlough money which I now cant claim.

My example is not flipent - on Monday we will be printing exactly that along with printed film connected with loo roll distribution. At present 75% of my staff are furloughed.

Perhaps use employees who aren't on furlough to do that work?
Less costly?

 

[Dahu371]

We took on an employee with a contract start date 1st March, but she attended a training day on 27th February and took a day in lieu after starting.

Is there any way we can furlough this employee and claim the 80%?

 

[Newchodge]

Was she on your payroll scheme (had she been included in an RTI?) on 28 February? The guidance is:

Furloughed employees must have been on your PAYE payroll on 28 February 2020,

However, I am not sure whether this will change as it will exclude many people in large organistions employed from 1 Feb as some take a month to get a starter onto payroll.

Even if that does change, you state her contract start date as 1 March which would exclude her, however, whatever the contract says she started to work for you on 27 Feb.

You may choose to offer furough with an agreement letter that states that any payment made will be limited to the amount you can claim back from the scheme, so if it turns out she is eligible by virute of having started to do work for you on 27 February, you can pay her., but have not committed to doing so until you have certainty.

Very tough on the employee, I realise.

 

[Paolo Scaglioni]

Unfortunately, although we are a small printer (16 staff) we are very diverse in what we do and staff can run only certain presses that they have been trained on and they certainly do a better job than I could - theoretical knowledge is not always a substitute for hands on experience . We have kept on some staff (the more senior and versatile ones) to cover the jobs but we can of course not predict what type of work (if any) may come our way in the forthcoming weeks. I almost wish we had been ordered to just close for three weeks. Thanks for your guidance.

 

[UKSBD]

That's in regards to being a sole employee. A sole employee is not the same as a sole director.

You can have multiple directors with only one of them being considered an employee via PAYE.

So the point still seems to stand. It hasn't been stated if a sole director can be furloughed.

https://twitter.com/HMRCcustomers/status/1244300361629929473

From reading that, it appears that HMRC think that until they receive guidance that a sole director can't be put on Furlough, they can.

 

[Rose Knowles]

I'm thinking of coming off the books as a director and an employee, and receiving nothing from the company at all (for various reasons........one of which is so that the employees have a bigger pot that they can try to last on financially) - and I'm thinking of applying for PIP (I have aspergers/autism, fully diagnosed, with minimal medication: diazepam for social situations).

I've been able to work (in the past) with this condition, because I do total 'back room' work, where I don't have to deal with anyone in person (this is NOT an understatement), and my side gig, online vintage, is just that.... online... Obviously there are no sales from that, and even if there were, I'm not keeping it live just to post out a £20 handbag here and there, risking my life at the post office. t

I know it will take 50,000 years to get any PIP application in or approved but ultimately, if I had to work a job where I'm with people (and this is nothing to do with the virus!!), I wouldn't last a day, because of this condition...

So my question is this: given that I'm planning on jumping off the ship, could I then voluntarily carry out some of those skeletal administrative duties for the company I once worked for, for free, so that the remaining director can furlough?

I've also applied to the Samaritans to work their phones. As well as being a girl of a *certain age* and life experience, I've got some fairly high level quals because I love to study (MSc. Psych, ironically!!......BSc. Econ.......Company Law.....Accounting & Finance, and bizarrely, Cosmology......which is one of my 3 or 4 super intense non-work related interests...)...

Yeah so I wonder... I'm trying to ensure that the employees and the other director left, would be able to access the 80% scheme...

 

[Stas Lawicki]

@Newchodge your advice and steering on here has been amazing - yours keyboard must be smoking!

Although none of it actually applies to me, it is interesting to see and understand it all, only possible because of your input.

Thank you very much.

 

[Ian J]

I'm thinking of applying for PIP (I have aspergers/autism, fully diagnosed, with minimal medication: diazepam for social situations).

I've been able to work (in the past) with this condition, because I do total 'back room' work, where I don't have to deal with anyone in person (this is NOT an understatement),

I know it will take 50,000 years to get any PIP application in or approved but ultimately, if I had to work a job where I'm with people (and this is nothing to do with the virus!!), I wouldn't last a day, because of this condition...

I feel your pain. I have a 20 year old autistic son who I have managed to keep in college until now but he needs to leave at the end of the college year.

Like yourself he can't deal with people as he won't talk to them and just looks the other way and that rules out most jobs.

He is in receipt of PIP and it did take a long time but I guess that it will now take even longer as the necessary social workers are probably being furloughed as they aren't going to go into people's homes to interview them

 

[Mr D]

Don't know about the rest but on the PIP get some help from a specialist support group - may be something locally, may be something autism charity knows about.
Most people it seems get turned down initially on PIP then later get it on appeal.

Not the easiest people to deal with, PIP assessors apparently look for reasons to fail someone.
Not sure if a smile is part of the 'must fail' category.

 

[Mr D]

He is in receipt of PIP and it did take a long time but I guess that it will now take even longer as the necessary social workers are probably being furloughed as they aren't going to go into people's homes to interview them

Some places do form completion on the phone then post the forms to be signed.
Getting assessed by the company assigned can be more of a problem. Not heard they have cancelled assessments but would not surprise me if they did.

 

[Karimbo]

my ltd company employs myself and my wife, i'm the sole owner and director of the ltd.

Can I furlough myself? if so who would the agreement to furlough be made between?

If it's possible to furlough myself, what about the basic director duties of paying regular bills, checking emails, checking the website is up and running etc. will they be regarded as work? will they take me out of furlough if I am involved in that?

 

[Karimbo]

The government will pay furlough of 80% or £2500, whichever is lower.

I heard on the radio that businesses can elect to only pay the furlough and not pay the remaining 20% with agreement with the employee. How is this done in practice? should the employer run 80% of the usual pay through PAYE?

 

[Bob Morgan]

What? That's schools provide a common educational background or that millions attend them?

No! - That 'Millions' knew was a 'Furlough' was!

 

[Barney2201]

Does anyone know what is the situation when you furlough staff who have a company car and private medical? Can they retain these benefits?

 

[LB78]

I heard on the radio that businesses can elect to only pay the furlough and not pay the remaining 20% with agreement with the employee. How is this done in practice? should the employer run 80% of the usual pay through PAYE?

I would like to know this too, I haven't been able to find an answer yet. Universal Credit use the PAYE figures from HMRC to determine the entitlement/deductions, so if payroll is run at 100%, the employee will be entitled to less despite being paid 20% less. Conversely, if we run it at 80%, are we then only able to claim 80% OF the 80% figure.