Funding to buy small business

Lynn10

Free Member
Jun 5, 2018
46
7
Hi,

I'd like to buy a leasehold cafe which is run by 2 owners as a partnership. I have some cash but not all of it and had hoped to take out a loan as my credit score is good, but have just found out that personal loans won't cover business purchases. Can I use a credit card to somehow purchase a business? If not, what other options are there? I'm not sure about a business loan, as I can't prove the net profit of the business to the bank.

Thanks.
 
You can use a credit card if you have the credit to buy anything you want including a business. Maybe see if you can borrow from family first though as the interest is likely to be a lot better.

Why can't you show the bank the profits of the business?
 
Upvote 0

Lynn10

Free Member
Jun 5, 2018
46
7
You can use a credit card if you have the credit to buy anything you want including a business. Maybe see if you can borrow from family first though as the interest is likely to be a lot better.

Why can't you show the bank the profits of the business?
Thanks for your reply. I've got a 0% interest deal until next October, by which time I plan to have downsized my house and will then pay it off with the equity. I don't think the profits of the business have been recorded correctly, unfortunately.
 
Upvote 0
So you are buying a business with dodgy accounts. I'm sure there are a load of mainly cash businesses that are fiddling the books and the bank will know this too. The accounts must at least look correct even if they have been fiddled so is there anything you can take to the bank?

I would suggest a business plan, the current accounts as they stand and let the bank decide. If you don't try you won't get.
 
Upvote 0

Lynn10

Free Member
Jun 5, 2018
46
7
So you are buying a business with dodgy accounts. I'm sure there are a load of mainly cash businesses that are fiddling the books and the bank will know this too. The accounts must at least look correct even if they have been fiddled so is there anything you can take to the bank?

I would suggest a business plan, the current accounts as they stand and let the bank decide. If you don't try you won't get.
I have the Profit & Loss Account which I think has been done creatively. It is a largely cash business, suppliers are paid by cash as are the part-time casual staff. I don't think the net profit is representative of the true net profit which is higher. Would it be better to go with 0% credit cards rather than having to do a business plan and paying the bank interest?
 
Upvote 0

KAC

Free Member
  • May 7, 2017
    1,553
    372
    Before you see the bank, go and see an accountant. You could be buying a can of worms.

    Is the business VAT registered? Should it be?

    Should the workers be on PAYE? Depends on earnings and their other income. How long have they been working there? Would you have a TUPE problem?

    Have you seen a business purchase agreement? Should a solicitor see it?

    Have you had the lease checked out?

    If the vendors are prepared to be dishonest and cheat the Revenue, are you happy with the deal they are offering you? Very easy to say we have recorded sales of £1,000 per week but, wink wink, they are actually £2,000 per week. Substitute any figure for that £2,000 as you won't have any proof of the real sales
     
    • Like
    Reactions: mattk
    Upvote 0

    Lynn10

    Free Member
    Jun 5, 2018
    46
    7
    I have seen an accountant briefly about how I should work out what to offer for the business in light of the accounts. The owners have actually been quite honest with me. They purchased the business after a drunken conversation about wanting to change jobs! They took it on with no business experience and continued like the previous owner. I have seen bank statements with the direct debits for expenses and I have seen purchase invoices which have been paid in cash. I have also seen their "book" in which they record their actual sales figures which has been filled in for years. There are also till receipts. They don't make enough to register for VAT.

    The current employees are all friends who work casually, no payslips, no PAYE, no holiday pay etc. One works 6 hours a week, another 10 hours a week and the other a couple of hours a week. They are all aware of the business being for sale and will leave before the business is sold, so I don't think TUPE will apply.

    I haven't yet seen the lease or the business purchase agreement. The lease will be a new one rather than me taking over the current lease. I'm speaking with a solicitor tomorrow.

    Thanks for your reply, any further info is greatly appreciated.
     
    Upvote 0

    Chris Ashdown

    Free Member
  • Dec 7, 2003
    13,381
    3,001
    Norfolk
    Tupe may well come back and bit you, especially if the employees come back after and state they were told to resign but did not want to

    No conman or woman has ever done much business, if they don't appear honest

    If you are buying the limited company you could be liable for the fraudulent past with HMRC, which again is not honest

    Every seller will tell you their company has massive potential they have not yet obtained

    New lease means new costs and rent

    Have you physically looked in at the cafe at bussy hours to check how many customers it has and also at other times

    As they needed others to help run the cafe , how many staff are you going to employ

    Only buy based upon the provided figures, ignore all the talk of others, compare the cost of last years products with sales and see if the prices give enough gross profit
     
    Upvote 0
    Just going on what you have written here, this business is a dog. It is a basket case that you will regret buying for years to come (until you find another sucker and can tell them the same BS that the present 'owners' are telling you now!)

    How do I know it's a dog? Ten excellent reasons -

    1. Yes, TUPE does apply. People come to work and they get paid - that constitutes an employment contract and you will have to maintain and continue those contracts, whether you want to or not.

    2. Exactly where in that P&L break-down are the wages for the partners? As I thought, nowhere! They are booking wages as profits and pretending that the place is profitable, when it is not. Just see how many hours they spend in their business and put at least £10 per hour against all that time as wages and then see if that business is profitable over and above their own wages. Now try again at a more realistic £14 (remember payroll taxes and other costs!) and see just how much money they are losing!

    3. A business that relies on lying to HMRC is not a business. If that is your idea of how to run a business, then I would suggest far more profitable enterprises, such as dealing drugs or fencing stolen smartphones.

    4. You don't have the money and your house is losing value, so when you come to 'downsize' a nasty shock awaits you. House prices are now falling! Buy some other (proper) business when you have the cash and do not have to put yourself into debt and cripple the business with monthly repayments.

    5. The business will require investment. When someone puts a company up for sale, they stop investing in new equipment, marketing and all the other things that keep that turkey afloat. YOU are going to have to find all that cash for repairs. Hell's-bells and little fishes! You don't even have the wherewithal to buy the place, let alone a few thousand to bring it up to spec.

    6. This mad statement tells me you need to wise-up: "I haven't yet seen the lease or the business purchase agreement." :( YOU should be the one drafting those contracts and not the others. You need to take control of these arrangements and YOU must become the contract giver, not the contract taker. YOU tell the present owners how much you'll pay and over what period (tip - if it's so bloody profitable as they claim, make that at least half from future profits, then watch their smiles fade!)

    7. We're back to that lease. The landlord will see this as a golden opportunity to up the rent and tie you to a five year lease and may even try to get you to pay for repairs. Get ready to negotiate that down to reality and with opt-outs!

    8. Rates?

    9. Have you ever run a business before? No? Start learning the basics before you commit yourself and as a result of your innocence of just about everything to do with running a business, crash and burn! Start with https://www.worldofbooks.com/starti...MIl6nJxNS-2wIV15MbCh3vEQe-EAQYAiABEgJwU_D_BwE

    10. Have a read though this lot - http://ukbusinessbrokers.com/gallery/ from our old friend @Clinton, who used to post here. There is something about selling a business that can make the most honest and forthright people into liars and scoundrels. Selling cars and grand pianos seem to have a similar effect on some people.

    Good luck and all that, but this is one gig you need to walk away from!

    Come back to the table when you are good-n-ready!:)
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
    Upvote 0

    Lisa Thomas

    Business Member
    Business Listing
    Apr 20, 2015
    5,443
    1
    1,438
    www.parkerandrews.co.uk
    I haven't read all the comments but would be worried you are risking losing/selling the equity in your home to fund the purchase of a business.
     
    Upvote 0

    Gecko001

    Free Member
    Apr 21, 2011
    3,228
    575
    This café might be good investment for someone who has 10 years in a the café business. People who know all about leases, contracts etc. the The Byre has mentioned. But more than anything else they will know about how to actually run a café. They know about suppliers, managing staff, hygiene regulations, insurance and of course they know about how to make the food palatable enough to sell 100% of the time. They know how to deal with customers. What to do with customers who buy one cup of coffee and then want to sit there all day using their laptop. What to do with customers who bring in their own food and drinks. What do with customers who do not want to pay.

    So why are all these experienced café owners not beating a path to the door of this café owner and picking themselves up a bargain?
     
    Upvote 0
    I would certainly take on board the above comments - far too many people fall in love with a business rather than clinically evaluating it.

    Specific to funding howebver

    It's unlikely that you bank will offer anything unsecured.

    Start Up Loans might be able to help.

    As Ian suggested, I've seen plenty of 'home improvement loans' be used to start businesses.

    Interest free cards could be good

    BUT - the critical thing here is not to fixate on APRs, but to look at the cashflow aspects of the loan - getting the loan term wrong causes far, far more financial problems than paying a slightly higher rate ever will. My (limited) experience of interest free cards is that they have fairly high minimum payments, which can be problematic.

    and finally; don't do a business plan for a lender, do it for you.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Lynn10
    Upvote 0

    Lynn10

    Free Member
    Jun 5, 2018
    46
    7
    Thanks very much for all your replies. Special thank to The Byre for your lengthy reply even I did feel like I was in the headmaster's office! I am obviously no business expert, but that's why I'm here. Just to address a few points, the company is not a limited company and not VAT registered.

    The P&L statement understates profit and overstates expenses to avoid tax. I have seen the real expenses which are considerably lower and I have seen the till receipts which are considerably higher. I, however, have and always will pay the correct amount of tax and pay employees properly, with all the legal benefits. I don't approve of their method of accounting. They pay themselves a wage through the books and then take cash from the till depending on how well they've done each week. They also pay someone so they can have a day off every other week, a cleaner, and a friend's daughter to wash up once a week, which amounts to £150 a week. None of these people wants to work with someone new. I would employ 1 person to work alongside me, I wouldn't have a day off and I'd do my own cleaning.

    It is run by 2 best friends who have even less idea about being business-like than me! However, what they do possess is a flair for good customer service, good basic grub and they have earned a loyal customer base. They have never claimed that the business has potential, but I have seen the potential that they are not realising because they have always done things the same. They put their prices up slightly for the first time in 5 years, not doing so before because they didn't want to upset the customers.

    The reason I said I hadn't seen the purchase agreement, was because an earlier post asked me if I had seen it! I have since seen templates for them online and so will write one up before I see my solicitor. I have negotiated a commercial lease before. I will be asking for a reduced rent to reflect the rent of the identical empty property next door, 3 years with a break-clause at a year. I will also make sure I am not responsible for external repairs. The property qualifies for 100% rate relief.

    The owners are still committed to the cafe even though they are selling. They recently refurbished the inside and painted outside, had new menus printed and have done a leaflet drop. The kitchen is a fully equipped catering kitchen with insurance covering the major equipment in case of failure.

    I have worked in a cafe alongside my regular job to get a feel for it, and have a very old degree in accounting that I hope I could put to some use. I have spoken to the bank again today about a loan, and to my surprise, they basically told me to lie about what I would use the funds for. I have a decent amount of equity in my house and it has always been my plan to downsize as my children are about to fly the nest.

    Thanks again for all your help.
     
    Upvote 0

    Mr D

    Free Member
    Feb 12, 2017
    28,924
    3,630
    Stirling
    If you can handle it then great. Long days and cleaning too, plus no day off is long term asking for trouble.
    Suppose next winter you get the Norovirus. Or the flu. Not open for a few days?

    Or worse, break a limb. Get some help so that you have at least some cover even if reduced menu / hours.
     
    Upvote 0

    Lynn10

    Free Member
    Jun 5, 2018
    46
    7
    If you can handle it then great. Long days and cleaning too, plus no day off is long term asking for trouble.
    Suppose next winter you get the Norovirus. Or the flu. Not open for a few days?

    Or worse, break a limb. Get some help so that you have at least some cover even if reduced menu / hours.
    It's only open Mon to Fri so I'd have weekends off and bank hols etc.
     
    Upvote 0

    Gecko001

    Free Member
    Apr 21, 2011
    3,228
    575
    It looks like the café owners are evading tax on several levels: PAYE certainly and VAT probably if the real turnover is over the threshold. In that case they probably do not want to advertise the sale too widely.

    I would be careful with the VAT as has been mentioned by KAC, as if you want to keep the prices the café charges the same as before the profit will be go down drastically if you have to register for VAT. It could be reduced to zero if the margins are presently low.
     
    Upvote 0
    I did feel like I was in the headmaster's office!
    I do apologise for my rather brusque manner - I read my ten points to my wife, who has extensive business experience and some of the points were hers and potential dangers that she flagged up. Both of us were less than happy about the idea that you borrow money on a credit card to buy a cafe. A regular loan sounds considerably healthier, though that health must of course depend on the conditions of that loan!

    As for the overall concept - I want you to be perfectly clear that what you are buying is not really a business, but a job. It is a job that requires you to enter into a rental agreement, hire aids and pay for equipment and other things - but you have to be there and you have to work there.

    We have four businesses (well three-and-a-half, as one is a joint venture with someone else) and I have to work full-time in one of those and I am the only member of staff, as I build it up. So in reality, that is not (yet!) a business. It is something, a job, an investment, a hobby, a vainglorious hope for the future, whatever I care to call it; but a business, it am not!

    But apart from that one venture, the other businesses occupy me not one jot. My contribution to the good order of two of those businesses is as the handyman. Customers are occasionally surprised to discover that the scruffy old bald Herbert in gunge-order that they see fixing the roof or checking the drains is the boss. As for the others, I am supposed to look at their books once a year and I have to travel there (Germany) a few times in the year and sign contracts and do similar things (mostly smile sweetly, nod vigorously and tell funny stories over dinner) but that's about the sum total of my efforts.

    Businesses are made of people, not buildings or facilities in general - but people. Even steelworks that need a few million investment per employee are composed of experienced steelworkers, metallurgists and other animals. I was once attending the recording of a film score at a major London studio and I ask the studio manager what the place costs per day.

    "£3,600 plus VAT and extras." she told me.

    "That's nothing!" said the young woman from the agency. "The orchestra is costing us £82,000 a day!"

    People, good people, cost money. I may play at being the boss around here, but I'm not the best paid! That honour (I was told) goes to the youngest member of the team - but she brings in the most profit.

    My earnings, such as they are, are rather meagre and I see my task as being the acquisition of equity and not cash. The profits from one enterprise are funnelled into creating other enterprises and not into buying a new jam-jar for the gaffer, or nice toys and dresses for Mrs. Gaffer!

    Bearing all that in mind, you may like to look upon going into business, not as some way of becoming rich or as a path to getting a nice car tax-free, but as a way of building something from the ground-up. They key to that, is to (a) not be the skivvy behind the counter! and (b) own the property! My 30 cents worth would be to wait until you have 'down-sized' your living arrangements and THEN go out and BUY a cafe and not rent one! (That way, you have an obvious and fairly painless exit strategy at all times!)
    _________

    And as has been mentioned above by @Gecko001, @KAC and others, if you turn this into a real business, it's going to hit £85,000 in a heartbeat! Well, either that, or it really is a turkey - so it will be best if you base your calculations on having to charge VAT.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
    Upvote 0

    Latest Articles

    Join UK Business Forums for free business advice