Fire Risk Assessment

[Strath]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to how best to tackle this.

My landlord on our retail premises has just contacted us requesting a copy of our fire risk assessment, to be honest its something i;ve never done or been involved in before. I was always under the impression that as we had under 5 employees we were not required to have a written assessment.

I've been looking about trying to find a cost effective way of getting this done, i;ve seen that on the chubb website they have a software based question and answers method that costs around £200 to complete, basically you answer yes/no to the questions and it compiles the assessment. To be honest that sounds best for me, but does anyone have any suggestions or cheaper alternatives

 

£200 seems a little excessive to me, you could arrange for a basic H&S audit for that figure.

Under 5 you do not have to have a written H&S policy, but irrespective of size you must give consideration to everything that is required... exactly the same as a larger business.
Have a looksee at the link below as there is information for various industries.
http://www.communities.gov.uk/fire/firesafety/firesafetylaw/

You could do this yourself without too much trouble.

Another site you could have a look at is below.
http://www.lansdalehs.co.uk/Health%20&%20Safety%20Essentials.htm

 

[WorldKnowledge]

Thanks for the reminder. I need to do one for my wife's hair salon. The site below has one based on an Excel spreadsheet for £25. Looks pretty reasonable and comprehensive.
http://www.tchsafety.co.uk

Ed

 

[Antonia @limeone.com]

Risk assessment tool here which is an excellent starting point free of charge
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg407ch.pdf

 

[nikheath]

Hi.

How does £30 sound. I market a comprehensive tool full of flowcharts to help you conduct your own. It is the actual product I used to supply the St Paul International Insurance Company with so it couldn't come with a higher endorsement.

Ring me anytime on 07875 257576 and I'll give you my web address.

Regards

Nik

 

[Wirrmann]

Hi there,

Personally I wouldn't spend money on it. Although a bit of a pain to do initially (and yes, you're right, you're not obliged to have one in writing under 5 employees), once it's done, it's done and it just needs tweaking and minor updates assuming there are no radical changes.

Check out the businesslink site and search on fire risk assessment as a good starting point. At the very least you'll end up more informed as to whether or not you want to spend money on it!

Rachel Wirrmann

 

[nikheath]

Hello again.

I would exercise extreme caution with any advice not to spend money on Fire Risk Assessment. The following is intended to educate not to scare.

Every employer must comply with The Regulatory Reform (fire Safety) Order 2005. They must nominate a responsible person and that person must carry out a Fire Risk Assessment. If you have 5 or more employees the significant findings must be recorded in writing.

Be careful of the terminology “employee”. That’s you, your partner (co-directors or family members who help out), full-time staff, part-time staff, helpers and volunteers.

So if you have a business premises you must carry out a Fire Risk Assessment and if the smaller business was you, your spouse (even occasionally), 2 part-timers and a Saturday helper – you must record the findings.

What's more, the Fire Risk Assessment needs reviewing periodically (guidance is annually) so a good tool is crucial to aiding that.

If you need a couple more reasons to spend a little:

• Non-compliance is a criminal offence not a civil one.
• Non-compliance will invalidate your insurance policy.
• Ignorance of the Regulations is no defence.
• New corporate manslaughter rules make responsibility for death or serious injury a real concern (even if it’s a Fireman in the process of putting your fire out). You will go to prison.
• Be careful of offers of Excel spreadsheets or Word attachments as, purely by the file size, I would suggest that they almost certainly won’t cover the subject in enough detail.
• So-called guidance is everywhere but I have still not seen any templates on any Fire Authority site that helps the uneducated (check your own Authority).
• For the first time in the History of Fire Safety Legislation the Fire Brigade now have targets in place to enforce the Reulations. Initially they will prioritise premises they feel present the highest risk but must investigate ALL complaints. Rest assured they will get round to you at some point.
• A Nursing Home in Barnett had a fire recently. They were able to produce a Fire Risk Assessment but the court deemed it “not-sufficient”. The owners were fined £200,000.

My Fire Risk Assessment tool was more than 2 years in construction with guidance from the Head of Fire Safety, Somerset Fire Brigade and the Consultant to London Fire Brigade Fire Safety; it’s received praise from a number of Fire Authorities here and across the water. The St Paul International Insurance Company used to give it to their clients badged as their own product. There isn't a better endorsed product anywhere else.

I’m a new member so can’t post my web address yet (I don’t think) but feel free to phone me anytime, for any reason on 07875 257576 or 05601491584. Always happy to help.

Nik

 

[Cred-X]

I would tend to agree with Nik.
If you cut corners with health and safety then people get hurt.
When I worked in the construction industry one of the most important members of staff was the Health & Safety Manager.

 

[MikeH]

Contact your local fire brigade (not 999). They will have a folder that helps you complete a risk assessment and explains why. There may be a small fee (£5) or they may even supply it free.

Mike.

 

[Sparky331]

I would be very surprised if a Fire Authority now have a 'folder' that helps you complete a fire risk assessment. My old Brigade took theirs off the website. I think the reason is that the assessment has to be 'suitable and sufficient' and it has to be carried out by a competent person. If the premises are small and you only employ less than 5 persons you could probably do this yourself.

Are your premises part of a multi occupied building with shared escape routes? If so the landlord himself should be carrying out an assessment of the common areas. Give me a ring if you want and I'll try and point you in the right direction.

We don't always get it right but after 5 years and over 350 risk assessments we are certainly in a position to offer you some advice. At least we haven't had a Fire Authority throw one back yet saying it's not suitable and sufficient!!

Bob

 

[Sparky331]

Sorry, posted twice.

 

[lattejoey]

I had to do a Fire Risk Assessment as I own a self catering holiday/corporate accommodation apartment. I am a sole trader; but that isn't the issue, it's whether you have 'Joe public' entering your premises. Like you I don't own the building so can only assess the area I am in control of. I was at a tourism conference last week and the Fire Brigade were there to discuss the risk assessment. You really don't need to pay for any thing at all!! Log on to your local Fire Brigade page and you can download their form for free. It isn't really hard at all to be honest - imagine yourself as the customer walking through the door - what hazards are there (if any!); if there was a fire - where are your escape routes? Plan B? You basically have to prove that you are doing everything in your power to keep the public safe. I managed to do mine and had it passed by Quality In Tourism and I got the Fire Brigade to check it last week! You can also phone and ask the brigade to come and help advise/check the building - it's free, but they prioritise on the large companies etc first, but you can also just phone for advice abvout it etc!! Go on, you can do it!!

 

[nikheath]

At the end of the day whether you comply with the Regulations or not is completely up to you. My concern is that we don’t create situations where people think they’ve done enough and they haven’t.

Firstly, The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order applies to:

Employers, self-employed with premises, voluntary organisations, those responsible for buildings with public access and any contractor who exercises a degree of control over any premises.

It insists that:

A ‘responsible person’ must be appointed and they will have a duty to ensure the safety of everyone who uses their premises and those in the immediate vicinity who may be at risk if there is a fire. The ‘responsible person’ must ensure that fire protection equipment (for example, fire extinguishers) and facilities are maintained in good working order. They must complete a detailed Fire Risk Assessment and, if they employ 5 people or more, record the significant findings in writing.

A sole trader in your line of business will not have to cover anywhere near the detail that a bigger employer will and there is no statutory requirement for you to record your significant findings in writing anyway.

A simple template will help you, in your situation, with that but I can assure you it won’t be anywhere near detailed enough for a bigger employer.

Be very careful saying you’ve had it passed by “Quality in Tourism”. They are neither a regulatory nor an enforcement authority so their approval is merely a “nice to have”. It would be quite naïve for an Estate Agent, let’s say, to follow your lead.

Secondly, it is not the Fire Brigade’s job to administer the requirements of Fire Safety Regulations but to enforce them using the information contained within your Fire Risk Assessment – they can not do it for you, they certainly shouldn’t visit and advise you, and what they should be telling you is “Do a Risk Assessment” (domestic dwellings might attract a slightly different approach from your local brigade).

In the event of a Fire and a serious injury or death it will not be a Fireman who decides if you covered enough detail in your Risk Assessment it will be a court of law. The Court doesn’t need to prove that you didn’t exercise your duty of care you will have to prove that you did.

 

[lattejoey]

To say whether you comply or not is totally unacceptable which I would have hoped a 'legal representative" would know!! I bet you'd be the first to sue if a relative of yours was in danger/died and it was found the "responsible person" hadn't bothered to comply!! When I said, passed by Quality In Tourism, I meant I had to have one and it had to be seen in order to get this years grading. I assume you are not in the self catering trade and therefore you would not have that experience to fall back on - I have been through it and therefore had a right to comment where one stands in relation to my business.

 

[nikheath]

I'm sorry you took my comments so personally, that was not the intention. I think you misunderstand my motives though; my aim is to aid and advise not to accuse or hinder. I merely pointed out that if one decides not to comply (it is a free Country), one must accept the severe consequences - if you read my earlier post I lay them out in some detail and would never condone non-compliance, in any situation. My experience would suggest that approximately 80% of smaller businesses still don't know what they are required to do. Not knowing will not help them in court.

I am, however, just as concerned about misinformation as I am about ignorance of the requirements within the Regulations. Getting it wrong will be just as "non-compliant" as doing nothing at all. There's where one can exercise choice.

I'm not sure who your comment "you really don't have to pay anything at all" was aimed at but if "the responsible person" doesn't have an understanding of Fire Safety, Risk Assessment, The Regulations and the requirements therein, they would be well advised to check all of their options so they can make an informed decision about what they do pay. Trying to throw one together from a free template would be dangerous at best - unless you know what you are doing.

I have still not yet seen a template that covers the subject in as much detail as my workbook does or provide easy to follow flow-charts for the novice. Can you put a price on "peace of mind"? I believe you can.

I have no doubt that, in your situation, what you've done is quite adequate I merely advocate caution when adopting legislative advice from someone - whatever the source. Don't forget that where "interpretation" has to be employed answers will often differ even from Fire Brigade to Fire Brigade.

For example, not everybody knows the difference between a hazard and a risk - I can assure you that every premises will have hazards (and that's OK); the risk assessment should be designed to help you minimize or remove the risks associated with those hazards. That's what the Fire Brigade needs evidence of.

By the way, if anybody would like more advice on hazards and risks (the difference) or a more detailed list of your risk assessment options - please ask. Always happy to help.

 

[Sparky331]

Well said Nikheath. Couldn't agree more. I've also said before that if anyone thinks the Fire Brigade will come and do your assessment for you, think again. They might point you in the right direction - if you're lucky. It's your premises, you risk assess it and then tell them what you've found and what you're going to do about it. If they agree with you then your assessment will be deemed 'suitable and sufficient'. If not they'll send you a letter informing you of the points where it appears to be lacking.

I would suggest that it is only simple premises such as the one the OP is referring to where they might be competent enough to do it themselves. But don't be tempted to take on too much just to save a few quid.

In the last 12 months or so I've come across a boarding school, a residential home and part of a hotel where immediate control measures had to be put into place as there was a significant risk to life. One of these had a risk assessment in place carried out by a reasonably large organisation which was not suitable and sufficient. In fact I was horified. On the face of it, it looked quite good, until it was discovered that the assessor had completely missed inadequate automatic smoke detection in a corridor with a risk room off it and no detection in there either!!

If I have found three real problem premises in twelve months, multiply this by a few hundred fire risk assessors in the country and you'll see that fire safety and risk assessments aren't as simple as the government would have you believe.

Bob

 

[ccctraining]

interesting thread here, will be ordering the manual today nikheath, I am going to give it to a client as a gift, we were discussing H & S at a consultancy meeting we had last week. Something practical makes a nice gift. Am seeing him Friday should I have it by then? Luckily as a single man company in a tiny flat in Mancs I guess its easy enough for me to smell the fire before its out of control. Even my fire detector looks like a flyin saucer in this little place!

 

[nikheath]

Hi ccctraining

Just to let you know, The Fire Risk Assessment Workbook and FirePlan template were sent to you by 1st class post today so should be with you tomorrow morning.

Please let me have feedback on the product - I would love to know what your client thinks of it too. Perhaps you would be good enough to post your views on this forum?

Best wishes

Nik Heath

 

[ccctraining]

Got it this am as i left to see the client, thanks for that, very prompt. He was pleased and has assigned someone as fire person to complete. I must say it looks easier to do that I first thought it would be and seems self explanatory. Is there anyway to get it logod so i can give it as a gift to clients in my name (not that i have many yet being a start up and all?

 

[safetymedia]

I would like to tink that your local fire brigade should be able to help you, but its highly likely as been said in the forum, that they won't!

We have a 5 step risk assessment procedure detailed on our website. I think you should be able to follow it and write one down for yourself.
DN't worry about hiring someone to do it.

 

[AlexisB]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to how best to tackle this.

My landlord on our retail premises has just contacted us requesting a copy of our fire risk assessment, to be honest its something i;ve never done or been involved in before. I was always under the impression that as we had under 5 employees we were not required to have a written assessment.

Hi
Your landlord is asking because he/she has to do their own assessment and any fire hazards created by you affect the whole premises. What type of retail outlet do you have? Selling fireworks or selling soap? They want to make sure you're not storing any flammable gases or such like - or taking adequate precautions if you are. As a health and safety consultant I agree, depending on the type of business, layout of premises, storage conditions, flammables/combustibles etc, then if you are a small operation do it yourself, keep it simple and ask someone to check it over if you're unsure. I'll happily check for you. To start, make sure electrical equipment is in good safe condition (and state that fact) identify any flammable substances you have and make sure they are kept separate from heat sources (and state that). Look at the layout of your premises, make sure people can escape..... look to preventing a fire starting before you move on to the stuff that warns you of a fire and puts one out.

Alexis