Europe should we stay in or get out?

It'd be interesting to hear what you'd like to say *if* you had free speech.

I don't suppose you can type it on here though, what with all the surveillance and 'masters' looking in?
When posting on a forum, the forum owners get to set the rules so here, the rules are set by the owners of ukbusinessforum.co.uk.
Free speech applies to what can be said in public, and applies to to not being arrested for what one says in a non-public place (such as Twitter, Facebook, etc).
A man called Paul Weston was arrested for quoting from a Winston Churchill speech, in a public place. Plenty of others have been arrested for saying things on social media.
This is not a good thing.
 
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garyk

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After an exit (were that to happen) if you manufacture something to sell into the EU and don't care about the regulations and don't comply, you may find your buyers have their goods impounded and you business dry up overnight, plus other consequences.

*May* being the operative word. I'm getting tired of the pros and cons and complete and utter speculation as to what *might* happen.

Fact is, you, I, everyone on this forum and the politicians do not know exactly what will happen.

To my simplistic mind basic economics dictates that buyers and sellers will transact regardless of their location but that doesn't mean it will happen!

There is the whole 'we've got the arse with you so bo****ks to ya' stance which might happen if we leave :)
 
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MikeJ

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A man called Paul Weston was arrested for quoting from a Winston Churchill speech, in a public place.

It has been wrongly suggested that Mr Weston was arrested for reciting passages written by Winston Churchill. I understand he was not welcome outside the Winchester Guildhall, the Police were called and he was asked to move on. I also understand that he was not prepared to move on and was arrested for this reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Weston_(politician)#Arrest

Weston is a former member of the British Freedom Party. The BFP were political allies of the EDL.

There's a bit of a theme forming here....
 
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KM-Tiger

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There is the whole 'we've got the arse with you so bo****ks to ya' stance which might happen if we leave
But that will be from politicians, not businesses, who will soon bring pressure to bear.

Given the record trade deficit then the EU will have every motivation to negotiate something quickly. Quite simply they need us much more than we need them.
 
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Cobby

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Oct 28, 2009
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No; I said you that you are afraid because it's true; you are afraid.
So your argument is that to be anti-EU is to be brave. Don't forget that bravery and stupidity are arguably the same thing. ;)

NOT A SINGLE ONE was a refugee, since they had reached safety in Turkey. When they left Turkey, they became economic migrants...
All these pages and it took you until now to say anything of value or substance. You have a valid point, well done. I feel I should applaud.

passing through Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary and heading for Germany, Austria, Sweden and Finland, where all the free money is.
...aaaand you ruined it by slipping back into hysterical nonsense. Ah well.
 
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Cobby

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Plenty of others have been arrested for saying things on social media.
This is not a good thing.
Oooo, please give us some examples of these. I'm salivating at the thought of you defending what you clearly see as the very best subset of humanity; people who spend their time threatening to rape people because a picture of a woman on the £5 note would be the end of society as we know it.
 
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B

boring-friday

I didn't say they'd arrest you. It's a civil case that they'd win. So no, you're clearly not an expert.

If you sell something that isn't what you say it is, the buyer can come after you. That works if you sell it to a UK citizen, so why do you think you'll get away with selling it overseas?


It's not the responsibility of any Chinese manufacturer to comply with any rules (other than those set in China I suppose). It's the importer's responsibility to make products comply with inspections of production runs for certification etc... It costs money, but it's a fact.

Yes, some will sell direct on eBay for example, but as far as I'm concerned it's buyer beware in those cases.

That was the problem with those 'hover boards' over the Christmas period. Sellers importing them from China either didn't know or didn't care that it was their responsibility to check they conformed. The former is stupidity, the latter is criminal. Actually both are probably criminal with ignorance being no defence.

After an exit (were that to happen) if you manufacture something to sell into the EU and don't care about the regulations and don't comply, you may find your buyers have their goods impounded and you business dry up overnight, plus other consequences.

This guys pretty much stated my point in the first and last paragraph.

To be honest I don't know why I'm having this argument, was more in tongue in cheek comment, I just doubt it will make any difference to trade whatsoever.
They sell more to us than we do to them so I see no reason for them to want to change that, I literally wouldn't be bothered if we sold and bought nothing from there personally though, would just mean more money kept in the UK and spent here on a basic level wouldn't it?
I don't even know what it is we import from the EU, I'm sure there must be a few things we 'need' but its mostly cheap Chickens and others animals that have had their heads kicked in their entire lives,expensive cheese,alchohol, some half decent cars and a lot of cocaine isn't it?

I'd personally vote out solely so we can (try to) stop so much immigration. Multi cultural society, sticking a load of eastern europeans and asians who hate eachother with some Jeremy Kyle stars thrown in next to eachother on council estates has to be 1 of the worst ideas ever
 
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Cobby

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It's funny - well, actually not funny, but perhaps remarkable - that all of the heartfelt, essay replies from the folks that want 'out' seem to consist of lots of terms like "I think", "as far as I'm concerned", and is very much written in the language of "them" and "us", especially noticeable when they extend their "them" to the parts of "us" they don't like, like the council estate remark above.

It's incredibly divisive and selfish, and I don't even mean that in regard to the royal "we" of the UK, just those individuals. They have no regard for the lives of their fellow citizens or how they might be affected by the inevitably complicated exit from the EU. It's the same behaviour you see when you try to explain poverty or homelessness to someone from a middle-class family that has no experience of it; it's a thing happening somewhere else that won't affect them so why think about it...

Generally the responses from the 'in' folk are more thoughtful, more cautious and considerate, and much less arrogant. If I were to have to make up my mind purely on the arguments of the general folk, I'd vote 'in' because the people arguing for that side just seem way, *way* more balanced about it all.
 
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Chris Ashdown

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    A few weeks ago the PM was asked what plans had been made in government if the vote is to leave and he was reported to say none had been made

    I find it very hard to believe this comment but do believe many answers must have been talked through but he does not want to give ammunition to the out voters to use, after all it would be a gross dereliction if the government did not have full plans in place as far as possible for either outcome

    There does seem many bully boy tactics by some out campaigners just like in Scotland's vote on independence and I guess we will always have that. but just as bad is the withholding of information the other side can use to be fair to all
     
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    It has been wrongly suggested that Mr Weston was arrested for reciting passages written by Winston Churchill. I understand he was not welcome outside the Winchester Guildhall, the Police were called and he was asked to move on. I also understand that he was not prepared to move on and was arrested for this reason.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Weston_(politician)#Arrest
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Weston_(politician)#Arrest
    Winchester Guildhall is a public place, and it says in the article you quoted that he was arrested for what he was saying.

    Weston is a former member of the British Freedom Party. The BFP were political allies of the EDL.

    There's a bit of a theme forming here....
    If you disagree with him then you are welcome to try and prove him wrong.
     
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    But that will be from politicians, not businesses, who will soon bring pressure to bear.
    History shows that people will trade with each other regardless.
    The desire to trade is so strong in humans that they will even trade with their enemies.

    Given the record trade deficit then the EU will have every motivation to negotiate something quickly. Quite simply they need us much more than we need them.
    Absolutely right.
    I've heard it said from the dictatorship campaign that Germany will be so upset with us if we leave that they will stop selling us BMWs. I had to laugh at that one.
     
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    ur argument is that to be anti-EU is to be brave. Don't forget that bravery and stupidity are arguably the same thing. ;)
    Only to a coward.

    ...aaaand you ruined it by slipping back into hysterical nonsense. Ah well.
    So I'm wrong, and in fact the migrant wave stopped in Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary and didn't make it to Germany, Austria, Sweden and Finland?
     
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    Oooo, please give us some examples of these. I'm salivating at the thought of you defending what you clearly see as the very best subset of humanity; people who spend their time threatening to rape people because a picture of a woman on the £5 note would be the end of society as we know it.
    A quick Google just threw up plenty of reports of arrests for being "offensive" (boo hoo) on social media.
     
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    scribe0101

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    *May* being the operative word. I'm getting tired of the pros and cons and complete and utter speculation as to what *might* happen.

    Fact is, you, I, everyone on this forum and the politicians do not know exactly what will happen.

    To my simplistic mind basic economics dictates that buyers and sellers will transact regardless of their location but that doesn't mean it will happen!

    There is the whole 'we've got the arse with you so bo****ks to ya' stance which might happen if we leave :)

    Ok, replace 'may' with 'will' in the post you quoted. My use of 'may' was allowing for the chance of goods slipping through the net.

    My point was to do with goods going into the EU if we were outside of it. For that the rules are quire clear.
     
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    Cobby

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    A quick Google just threw up plenty of reports of arrests for being "offensive" (boo hoo) on social media.
    Oh no, you don't get to be stupidly vague about this. If you want to make it one of your arguments, you better back it up with something solid. I'm looking forward to watching you get behind and defend some racist a-hole or some internet tough-guy threatening to rape some woman he doesn't even know because she dared to have an opinion.
     
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    KM-Tiger

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    Cd6pP0FWwAA7ULj.jpg


    Rather well put, I thought.
     
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    Everyone has to make their own minds up re staying or leaving the UK, normally people vote for their own interests but on this occassion I will be voting for what I perceive as my children's best interests.

    A lot of rubbish is being put out by all sides IMO, particularly the stay in bridgade, such as no co-operation on security, no guarantee of trade continuing etc.

    Europe would wish to continue trading with us, us with them, no reason we cannot co-operate on security issues etc, we do with many other countries already, basically a way would be found.

    I do not know if we would be better off financially, personally I think we would be, after a few years adjustment, but far more importantly we would regain some control of our country, to run it more in our interests than others.

    I would like a country where my kids can expect to be able to buy a house, not have to live at home forever, reducing immigration would help reduce the huge demand on housing.

    I would like a country where people integrate, at present we help to create and condone immigrant ghettos.

    I would like a country with sensible wages, at present we pay as a nation to keep salaries artificially low, and flood the country with huge amounts of cheap labour that is not required.

    Most importantly I would like a country that had faith in itself to stand up and make it's own way in the world, we managed it for thousands of years and can easily do so again, how small have we become as a nation to believe we need europe to trade with the world?

    Most importantly and rarely mentioned as of yet, is the different idea of what europe is to different nations. The UK has long be sold the idea it is for trade, the rest of europe WANT political union and IT WILL happen in the future.

    So really the referendum is whether we want to be european, or as now the UK trading with the europeans.

    "This huge Commission building in Brussels, in the shape of a cross, is absolutely un-British. I felt as if I were going as a slave to Rome; the whole relationship was wrong. Here was I, an elected man who could be removed, doing a job, and here were these people with more power than I had and no accountability to anybody...My visit confirmed in a practical way all my suspicions that this would be the decapitation of British democracy without any countervailing advantage, and the British people, quite rightly, wouldn't accept it. There is no real benefit for Britain." .......Tony Benn
     
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    Cobby

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    I would like a country where my kids can expect to be able to buy a house, not have to live at home forever, reducing immigration would help reduce the huge demand on housing.

    I would like a country with sensible wages, at present we pay as a nation to keep salaries artificially low, and flood the country with huge amounts of cheap labour that is not required.
    If you think either of these has anything to do with our membership in Europe, you're going to be hugely disappointed when, stay or leave, nothing changes.

    Most importantly I would like a country that had faith in itself to stand up and make it's own way in the world, we managed it for thousands of years and can easily do so again, how small have we become as a nation to believe we need europe to trade with the world?
    Ego about our imperial history has no rational place in this discussion and its appearance in an argument really only highlights a lack of understanding about globalism and our place in the world economy.
     
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    Karimbo

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    i see nothing wrong with eu membership so i will stay to maintain the status quo. UK has been inviting migrants long before EU. UK has been welcoming immigrants from commonwealth countries post ww2 til the 1980s.

    It has until 2008 also had a really bad immigration and deportation polcy which in effect giving a nod and a wink to illegal immigrants.

    Somehow migration is now the fault of the EU
     
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    I vote out.
    If the result is in favour of the UK coming out, I see this as the best way to reform the EU.
    The other members will take note and what will happen?
    Greece, Italy, Spain, Holland, Ireland and others will have a very strong case to take to the French and Germans that their policies and politicians are not what Europe wants.
    The UK may lead the way to re-introduce democracy in the EU that has been steadily eroded for the past twenty years.
    We could even join a group of countries that aspires to free trade, not only in Europe, but world-wide.
     
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    It's easier to employ a Bulgarian fruit picker than a Japanese engineer or a Canadian doctor, thanks to the EU. How can that be right or good for the economy?

    Exactly right.

    I work with an Indian bloke (chartered accountant) and he has to jump through hoops to stay here.

    Meanwhile, a Polish shelf stacker can do as they please.

    Immigration is good for Britain. But only when it is controlled and on our terms.
     
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    david64

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    Somehow migration is now the fault of the EU

    Membership in the EU means that 445 million people have the unquestionable right to come here, even if they were just released from a European prison for murder the day before. And 100,000s of Europeans take advantage of this. There are problems with immigration from other areas, but at least something could be done about that. Nothing can be done if 2,000,000 Europeans decided they were moving here this year.

    And it seems the EU are planning on adding another 100 million and change to this pool, including Turkey, which has reported crimes rates about 500% higher than in the UK (Eurostat). If you look at any measure of what is good, the UK is generally at or near the top of the pack in the EU. Take road safety for instance:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
     
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    Membership in the EU means that 445 million people have the unquestionable right to come here, even if they were just released from a European prison for murder the day before. And 100,000s of Europeans take advantage of this. There are problems with immigration from other areas, but at least something could be done about that. Nothing can be done if 2,000,000 Europeans decided they were moving here this year.

    And it seems the EU are planning on adding another 100 million and change to this pool, including Turkey, which has reported crimes rates about 500% higher than in the UK (Eurostat). If you look at any measure of what is good, the UK is generally at or near the top of the pack in the EU. Take road safety for instance:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

    Is that mainly because we spend most of our time in traffic jams?;)
     
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