Europe should we stay in or get out?
- Thread starter Funding for Communities
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amberlamps
It makes perfect sense.
If they can smuggle themselves onto lorries then they can get into the UK.
If they do as this chap did then they can walk into the UK and be given asylum: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...nnel-Tunnel-to-Britain-is-granted-asylum.html
That enormous brain of yours seems to be on strike today. Come on Einstein, you can do better than this.
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amberlamps
You've got an IQ of 160. I should be picking your brain for answers.
And yet it's the other way around.
Hmmmm.
160 - 70 = ?
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So part of the leave campaign is to fill the tunnel in, is it? That's nothing to do with the EU.
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As much as I respect Professor Hawking its just his opinion and his stance is the threat to research and movement of scientists. Of course what is unknown is if we do leave if will his concerns come to fruition? He has an incredible mind but alas no crystal ball...
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Don't disagree with that, to be honest, though he's probably right specifically for research. My wife used to work in research for the BHF, and there was a lot of international researchers there. There's lots of pros and cons for leaving or staying. It's a difficult decision to weigh up. Only a damn fool would think life would be a bed of roses one way or the other.
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amberlamps
When we waste so much money on the EU which could be spent on research in this country, I wonder why he wants to stay in the EU.
Perhaps he'd better stick to theoretical physics.
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Amberlamps
You are very opinionated which is your right, but you are also rather offensive when there is no need, nobody has ever won a debate by being offensive and rude but many have by putting forward the benefits of their argument.
Perhaps you could tell us something about yourself as you only seem to post on a topic you started on a business web forum, do you run a business of any sort, Do you have any business help you can apply to the rest of the forum or just that you like listening to yourself and your rants
You are very opinionated which is your right, but you are also rather offensive when there is no need, nobody has ever won a debate by being offensive and rude but many have by putting forward the benefits of their argument.
Perhaps you could tell us something about yourself as you only seem to post on a topic you started on a business web forum, do you run a business of any sort, Do you have any business help you can apply to the rest of the forum or just that you like listening to yourself and your rants
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amberlamps
Offence is in the mind of the beholder. No need for any boo-hoos in this thread yet.
However, for someone moaning about offence, you then go on to suggest that I might like to listen to myself and my rants. But I'm not going to boo-hoo, so your conscience can be clear.
I've been self-employed for 12 years. I've posted in some other threads as well, about other things, but this EU topic is rather more important than the detail of running a small business.
Since the EU is a corporatist entity, if we stay in the EU then it will get worse for small businesses since the EU favours corporations. Therefore, over time, wondering which shopping cart software to use or how to deal with a customer who's trying to get a freebie, etc, will become less and less important, because the success or failure of each small business will become less and less to do with the decisions which are made by the operators, and more and more to do with the EU bureaucrats serving their corporate masters by creating legislation which favours big business.
So, of primary importance is to sort out the framework in which business is conducted. You might call this "government" or "society". This will be achieved by getting out of the EU, then examining which political parties are pro-small-business. Since Conservative, Labour, Libdem and SNP are all pro-EU and hence anti-small-business, it'll either be a case of changing them to be pro-small-business or looking for an alternative party.
Then once we've sorted that out, we'll be able to grow, employ more people and become more prosperous.
Does that make sense to you?
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amberlamps
Well, you haven't said anything which puts you open to ridicule, have you, so that separates you from some of the posters above, so please don't go claiming that your IQ is 161 or anything like that, because I might mention it, then you might become sad.
As for the 95%.... go ahead and prove me wrong. If I am wrong then I will adjust by beliefs accordingly.
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amberlamps
You will continue to make a fortune selling stuff to the EU countries, even though the EU will most likely collapse after a Brexit. Europe will revert to a trading zone once again. Germany will continue to sell us Mercedes, France will continue to sell us Brie, and you will continue to sell whatever it is you are selling to them/
There's no need to wish slavery on your fellow British person just because you are afraid that you will lose some income.
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No idea. Still don't know which way I'll vote.
There's a major problem with some of the arguments put forward for both sides. Anyone that thinks we can ignore EU legislation if we leave is wrong. If I want to sell stuff to Europe, it has to comply with their rules. We've spent a lot of time jumping through hoops meeting a load of standards that were really badly thought out and poorly implemented. The intention was fine, but the practicality is shoddy. However, if we want to sell into EU then we'd have to meet the legilsation, and at least currently we have a voice in setting it.
A lot more of our stuff travels through Europe and then onwards. So, we sell to a German customer and they export from there. Quite how that would work on Brexit nobody knows. It's pointless someone saying "oh it'll be exactly the same", because we really, really don't know for certain. My fear is a German may choose to buy from within the EU because the paperwork is a bit easier. Or he's just annoyed with us because we've upset the apple cart.
The Euro was a big problem for us, as it makes it much easier for a German to buy from the French/Spanish/Italians. However, we got round that by taking on the currency risk and offering product in Euros. We work at around 40-50% margin, so a 5-10% shift in currency is absorbable. I was dead against us joining the Euro though, and still am.
I'm probably retiring in two or three years, and if we vote for Brexit then by the time we see any significant changes I'll have gone anyway. If not, then I'd seriously look at moving the headquarters into Europe somewhere (my wife is Irish, so that's an obvious choice though we have Spain as an option too) if it meant people would be happier dealing with us there.
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As I said, you don't know that.. Sure, if I wanted a Mercedes, then I'd have to buy it from Germany. But if I just wanted a car, and it was a bit harder to shift a Merc here than it was before Brexit then that would make which car I chose a bit different.
Seriously, stop using words like "slavery". It ruins the argument you're trying to make. Nobody here is a slave.
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amberlamps
In other words, you're afraid.
If you are selling to EU countries then you will have to comply with their regulations for that product, just as they will comply with ours, and the regulations of any market they will sell to.
Leaving the EU means that we don't have to be dictated to, that's all. We will have a choice of what we accept for ourselves.
No matter how wealthy you are, your children and grandchildren will not be insulated from the effects of the EU.
In Germany and Austria, the women and children have been molested, r4ped and killed indiscriminately because of the EU policy on immigration. The offenders didn't check first to see how wealthy their families were. What would be a decent father or grandfather's priority regarding leaving the EU; fear of largely unfounded certainty following an exit, or the safety and well-being of his own children or grandchildren?
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amberlamps
Why on earth would it be any different after exit? There's no reason to believe it would. European countries are not going to suddenly fall out and stop trading with each other. Do we need to be ruled from Brussels in order to trade with France? Do China and Australia need to be ruled by the same master in order sell things to each other?
Slavery is exactly what it is, except that this time, someone with a whip is not standing behind you. A man who cannot alter his own destiny is a slave. Do you think that you are free because you are able to go on holiday and play golf?
Try saying someone that you are not allowed to say. Try paying the same tax rate as Google. Try holding to account a bureaucrat in Brussels. Try voting to change things. Try objecting to mass immigration. See what happens. You will see, when you have tried those things, that you are a slave, and that voting for more of it will consign your children and grandchildren to slavery.
It's been mentioned before in this thread; reality happens regardless of whether a person has the courage to face up to it or not.
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boring-friday
Like Chinese manufacturers comply with all our rules?
Wouldn't make any difference other than if we chose not to comply with Germanys rules they wouldn't be able to do fuk all about it. Same as no Chinese manufacturers get locked up in Strangeways for having some pretty suspect looking CE marks
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amberlamps
What you've said makes perfect sense, and the pro-EU lot believe you as well.
They come up with these fake reasons for wanting to be in the EU to mask their real reasons for wanting to be in the EU.
That's why the pro-EU reasons are so easy to tear down; because there aren't any *real* reasons for wanting to be in the EU.
It boils down to motivation, as has been mentioned. Some people like authority. Some people hate themselves and their people. Some people want to have control over other people. Etc, etc, etc. Those are the real reasons why these people want to be in the EU, but they obviously can't come out and say things like that, so they come up with smokescreen reasons.
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For the countries who have small populations then the EU is probably a more stable government than having a local government with major changes every few years when the opposition takes over.
For the rest there will always be different points of view often dictated buy the heat zone they live in and the lazy attention to democracy.
my own belief is that Putin is only involved in Syria to make life unbearable and force the population to leave and head for Europe with the aim of making all the EU countries fight each other; and hasten a breakup with the UK first, quickly followed by others, and now on top of that they have brought Turkey into the Equation with the second largest population trying to get entry to the EU
Outside the EU the UK would naturally have to obey the trading laws of its customers, but it's very hard to believe that the remaining EU would not want to trade with us and the untangling of the UK from the EU would take probably a couple of years to finalise
All in I believe that we would be better out due to the massive waste of the EU its poor political management and non ability to get all countries to work to the same laws and rules. I also believe that the top echelons of the EU are of poor quality mostly rejects from other governments getting rid of problem MPs and equivalent.
Our own human rights can easily be brought in and we have no reason to have any law system that can override that of HMG and its judicial system.
At the end of the day the EU wants to micro manage the who of Europe when management is best served by delegating down much like the USA but I cannot ever see the EU changing in any notable way
Asylum has been mentioned but if independent then we could send any immigrants back to the country they came in from so realistically from the ferries they could go back to France or Belgium and only immigrants arriving from long sea trips we would have to accept
I rest my case
For the rest there will always be different points of view often dictated buy the heat zone they live in and the lazy attention to democracy.
my own belief is that Putin is only involved in Syria to make life unbearable and force the population to leave and head for Europe with the aim of making all the EU countries fight each other; and hasten a breakup with the UK first, quickly followed by others, and now on top of that they have brought Turkey into the Equation with the second largest population trying to get entry to the EU
Outside the EU the UK would naturally have to obey the trading laws of its customers, but it's very hard to believe that the remaining EU would not want to trade with us and the untangling of the UK from the EU would take probably a couple of years to finalise
All in I believe that we would be better out due to the massive waste of the EU its poor political management and non ability to get all countries to work to the same laws and rules. I also believe that the top echelons of the EU are of poor quality mostly rejects from other governments getting rid of problem MPs and equivalent.
Our own human rights can easily be brought in and we have no reason to have any law system that can override that of HMG and its judicial system.
At the end of the day the EU wants to micro manage the who of Europe when management is best served by delegating down much like the USA but I cannot ever see the EU changing in any notable way
Asylum has been mentioned but if independent then we could send any immigrants back to the country they came in from so realistically from the ferries they could go back to France or Belgium and only immigrants arriving from long sea trips we would have to accept
I rest my case
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Ah, classic argument tactic. Put up some negatives, and someone suggests you're a coward.
That's a pretty poor reason to put up though. The current immigration crisis has developed over the last year. The UK still has control of its borders. Germany chose to take in migrants that were fleeing for their lives. A tiny minority caused trouble.
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Repeat that and replace "Brussels" with "Westminster".
Ooh look, I've just created some SNP literature.
I can say what I want, within the law. That doesn't change regardless of whether we're in the EU or not. Tax rates are abused regardless of the EU.
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Trading standards clamp down on dodgy imports. It's harder in China, because they're a difficult country to take legal action in. Sell some Germans some duff gear and they'll be all over you. Or do you think being outside the EU will protect you from the law?
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amberlamps
No; I said you that you are afraid because it's true; you are afraid.
Absolutely right. Protecting men, women and children from r4pe and sexual assault is a pretty poor reason to oppose the EU policy on immigration.
In Makebelieve Land.
The UK doesn't have control of its borders, because when those economic migrants are granted citizenship in Germany, they are free to travel to wherever they want in the EU. Oh, and we get a quota to take before that as well! Brilliant!
Wrong again. Only 21% of the migrants were from Syria, and NOT A SINGLE ONE was a refugee, since they had reached safety in Turkey. When they left Turkey, they became economic migrants, passing through Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary and heading for Germany, Austria, Sweden and Finland, where all the free money is.
A tiny minority, eh? Are you sure about that, because the mass assaults which were carried out over new year in various cities were all committed by the same type of people.
So don't lie.
Maybe you ought to tell the public swimming bath operators in Germany who are having to now segregate the sexes and bring in extra security that they shouldn't worry because they're only dealing with a tiny minority.
Perhaps the women and girls who are having to form convoys in order to walk to work and school are overreacting because after all, it's only a tiny minority who are harassing and assaulting them in the street.
I haven't checked today, but yesterday's outrage was an Afghan man who wanted to sexually assault an Austrian woman, so he stole her child and hid, and when she came chasing him to get her son back, he sexually assaulted her.
She must have been ok with it though because it was only done by a tiny minority.
And people like you have the vote. God help us.
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amberlamps
Good thinking, Batman!
The fools we have in Westminster are doing everything they can to keep us in the EU. It's...... almost..... as if..... they are....... the EU's....... agents...... doing their bidding in the UK.
So can people in North Korea.
Au contraire.
Once we're out of the EU, we can get rid of the politically correct filth who have taken our free speech, and take back our rights.
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boring-friday
lol at trading standards 'clamping down', search any brand thats realistically easy to fake on ebay and I guarantee 75%+ of the first page is fake, would be all of it if ebay didn't ban some themselves.
And I don't know I'm not a expert, don't see how Germany could come to the UK and arrest me for not following a German law when I'm not a citizen there and don't go there though
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amberlamps
Streamlining of laws across the EU + European Arrest Warrant = cor blimey guv'nor, they've got you banged to rights (in German).
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I didn't say they'd arrest you. It's a civil case that they'd win. So no, you're clearly not an expert.
If you sell something that isn't what you say it is, the buyer can come after you. That works if you sell it to a UK citizen, so why do you think you'll get away with selling it overseas?
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I can say what I want, within the law.
So can people in North Korea.
So come on... what can't you say here that you desperately want to say? What's the problem? You've just said ... (couldn't tell if you were referring to Westminster or Brussels) "Once we're out of the EU, we can get rid of the politically correct filth who have taken our free speech, and take back our rights."
Anyone beating down your door yet? Other than to get away from you, I mean.
So can people in North Korea.
So come on... what can't you say here that you desperately want to say? What's the problem? You've just said ... (couldn't tell if you were referring to Westminster or Brussels) "Once we're out of the EU, we can get rid of the politically correct filth who have taken our free speech, and take back our rights."
Anyone beating down your door yet? Other than to get away from you, I mean.
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It's not the responsibility of any Chinese manufacturer to comply with any rules (other than those set in China I suppose). It's the importer's responsibility to make products comply with inspections of production runs for certification etc... It costs money, but it's a fact.
Yes, some will sell direct on eBay for example, but as far as I'm concerned it's buyer beware in those cases.
That was the problem with those 'hover boards' over the Christmas period. Sellers importing them from China either didn't know or didn't care that it was their responsibility to check they conformed. The former is stupidity, the latter is criminal. Actually both are probably criminal with ignorance being no defence.
After an exit (were that to happen) if you manufacture something to sell into the EU and don't care about the regulations and don't comply, you may find your buyers have their goods impounded and you business dry up overnight, plus other consequences.
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amberlamps
It's funny you should say that, because the UK government are the EU's agents in the UK, and in Germany (for example), the government is now conducting arrests of people who are complaining on social media about the immigration wave which has been imposed upon them.
The EU is currently attempting to impose speech rules across the EU, designed to silence criticism of at least some of its policies.
Labour the Conservatives are both authoritarian, but when we leave the EU, whether we keep them or boot them out will be our responsibility. I think we should take responsibility for ourselves.
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