Europe should we stay in or get out?

[Deleted member 59730]

This democratic referendum looks like being the farce of the century. With this level of ignorance how can the vote be fair?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

In Cornwall a poll showed that 40% thought a passport wasn't needed for travel between the UK and the rest of the EU.

(The rest thought a passport was needed to visit England ;-) )

 

[Cobby]

They didn't evade tax (well they might have done). The issue has been about tax avoidance which is perfectly legal.

I didn't say tax evasion, I said evasion of the spirit of the law, using 'evasion' in its literal sense, not its legal sense. Obviously tax evasion is illegal, so the level to which one employs tax avoidance is according to a moral positioning; how much is okay to avoid tax?

How many directors have been using tax avoidance for years? Think small salary topped up by dividends.

Yeah, well, here we are.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Let me guess. You didn't bother to read a word of that article I posted, did you?

Wrong, but what I read was a rather dreary list of what can't be done.

Let's take a can do attitude and do it. We are plenty good enough and don't need the EU.

Leap of faith? Absolutely, but I have faith in this country.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Video about Project Fear in Norway prior to them voting not to join the EU.

They have of course prospered rather well since.

 

[simon field]

Remainers - Get Real.

Look at the state of it. It was good for a while back then, now it just ain't working is it?

It's crumbling, falling apart, collapsing. Only a matter of time before the whole goddamn thing is toast. 'Shackled to a corpse' has never sounded so realistic has it.

Be honest. Never mind figures, soundbites, forecasts, posturing - If we weren't already in the EU would you seriously, SERIOUSLY join now?








I said be honest.

 

[simon field]

Wrong, but what I read was a rather dreary list of what can't be done.

Let's take a can do attitude and do it. We are plenty good enough and don't need the EU.

Leap of faith? Absolutely, but I have faith in this country.

101% Agreed. I've never, in all my years, heard such pathetic, dismal negativity about anything like I've heard spouted about this. And why?

So we don't 'take a risk'.

Every businessperson on here has taken risks. That's how shit gets done.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

101% Agreed. I've never, in all my years, heard such pathetic, dismal negativity about anything like I've heard spouted about this. And why?

So we don't 'take a risk'.

Every businessperson on here has taken risks. That's how **** gets done.

Risk is good providing it is calculated risk.

Risk where the odds are overwhelmingly in favour of going wrong for little reward is frankly insane to me.

I'd understand the leave argument a little more if there were plenty of concrete things we have planned to do which would negate the negative effects of leaving and ultimately make us so much more prosperous as a country that it's worth the risk, but there's just nothing.

Controlling borders (even though hundreds of thousands of EEA and non-EEA migrants would still come in via a points-based system with the possibility of continued free movement via EEA membership), and trying to negotiate better FTAs than what the EU can give us (despite having far less leverage) are far from good enough reasons for me.

But you see, that is where debates like this will never convince Brexiteers to ever change their mind or consider the other side, because they are openly willing to just leap into this with blind faith that it will somehow resolve itself positively in some way.

The argument has mostly descended into "we are Britain, we are strong and we will be fine". I'd rather look at it in a little more detail with a bit more rational thought.

Remainers - Get Real.

Look at the state of it. It was good for a while back then, now it just ain't working is it?

It's crumbling, falling apart, collapsing. Only a matter of time before the whole goddamn thing is toast. 'Shackled to a corpse' has never sounded so realistic has it.

Be honest. Never mind figures, soundbites, forecasts, posturing - If we weren't already in the EU would you seriously, SERIOUSLY join now?

It's really not crumbling or falling apart at all. There is some discontent regarding the Unions further integration, but the EU heads have already openly acknowledged that this path must change.

Cooperation is strong, relations are strong and finances are strong. Where is the collapse?

Of course I'd join now if we weren't in already. Single market access with our powerful service-based economy would cause it to skyrocket compared to pre-EU levels. We'd also suddenly have a much bigger voice and be far more able to help shape the EU, as even outside of it, we will always be heavily influenced by it in some way.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Video about Project Fear in Norway prior to them voting not to join the EU.

They have of course prospered rather well since.

Yet they still joined the European Economic Area and the Schengen Area to allow the free movement of goods, services and people.

They still pay into the EU (more per head than we do), still allow free movement of people (except with no passport control at all - unlike us), still have free access to the single market, and still must abide by many regulations:

The non EU members of the EEA (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) have agreed to enact legislation similar to that passed in the EU in the areas of social policy, consumer protection, environment, company law and statistics. These are some of the areas covered by the former European Community (the "first pillar" of the European Union).

The non-EU members of the EEA have no representation in Institutions of the European Union such as the European Parliament or European Commission. This situation has been described as a “fax democracy”, with Norway waiting for their latest legislation to be faxed from the Commission

Do you want that for the UK too?

 

[simon field]

Sorry & all that. Just been watching Andrew Neil shred Benn & Osborne!

The psychic little sods can actually put a figure on it, can you believe that? £4300. The price of freedom, hallelujah!

As someone said earlier, 9/10 economists, 8/10 cats. Mass youth unemployment, massive bailouts of banks (and whole countries (more to follow!)), greedy grabbing thirst for power, threats, lies, I'm not buying any of it.

I asked my kids what they would do, given that they get about far more than I in my sealed little environment. They both want out. I'll live with that, they're positive chaps, much like me.

 

[ShirleyM]

Every businessperson on here has taken risks. That's how **** gets done.

Exactly my point on one of the first posts I ever made on here. We would all still be employees if we never weighed up the options but settled for 'no risk' instead of 'calculated' risk. Obviously, there is no such thing as 'no risk', but Remainers seem to think that staying in the EU carries no risk, when the opposite is true.

I don't doubt there will be short term pain, as in starting any new business, but it will be for long term gain. I gave up a huge salary to break free and although I have been through some tough times I have never regretted it. It isn't just the money. It's being able to make decisions about my future.

Having been employees ourselves I also think we become better employers and appreciate that it is everyone in the business that contributes to those profits, unlike the faceless multinationals.

 

[ShirleyM]

Do you want that for the UK too?

No. Norway exports more to the EU than they take in imports, so that arrangement suits Norway, but for obvious reasons it doesn't suit the UK.

Better to not be in the single market at all, and if the EU won't take a trade deal then we walk away. It will hurt the EU more than it hurts the UK, which is why I think we will get a trade deal.

Of course, if they want to be nasty and vindictive, then they will confirm that we made the right decision to get out and get away from such 'friends' and colleagues and it will rebound by lowering relations with the remaining EU countries. Rule by fear isn't rule. It's a dictatorship.

 

[Cobby]

Let's take a can do attitude and do it. We are plenty good enough and don't need the EU.

Leap of faith? Absolutely, but I have faith in this country.

Me too, but I still prefer economic policy to be made according to evidence, not ego. Wanting otherwise is the foolishness of the religious zealot.

Look at the state of it...It's crumbling, falling apart, collapsing.

No, it isn't!

'Shackled to a corpse' has never sounded so realistic has it.

Funnily enough, this is how I feel with so many uninformed, blinkered Leave voters in this country.

 

[Cobby]

Better to not be in the single market at all, and if the EU won't take a trade deal then we walk away. It will hurt the EU more than it hurts the UK, which is why I think we will get a trade deal.

You keep repeating this despite having it explained quite clearly. Brexiteers never seem to be swayed by facts or logic.

Our exports to the EU account for a far, far greater percentage of the total than the EU's export to us. It'll hurt them a bit, sure, but it'll hurt us a *lot*. It's basic economics, sheesh.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Our exports to the EU account for a far, far greater percentage of the total than the EU's export to us. It'll hurt them a bit, sure, but it'll hurt us a *lot*.

Do you have evidence of that?

My understanding is that it is the other way round. ie we run a significant trade deficit with the EU.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Better to not be in the single market at all, and if the EU won't take a trade deal then we walk away. It will hurt the EU more than it hurts the UK, which is why I think we will get a trade deal.

It will hurt the UK far, far more than it hurts the EU.

The EU provides almost 45% of our export trade. We provide only around 9% of the EU's export trade.

I don't think you fully appreciate how big the EU is. What you're suggesting is like saying we could walk away from an FTA with the United States because "it would hurt the US more than it hurts the UK". US officials would laugh us out of the negotiating room, as would the EU.

I'm all for having faith in the UK as a great country, but the cold, hard facts show that it's a David vs Goliath situation, however you look at it.

The ball is entirely in their court, and they will know that leaving the single market entirely would cripple the UK economy. If you think the NHS, schools and housing are bad now, just wait to see how they are if we do go down that route.

There's a very good reason why, despite not wanting to join the EU, countries like Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland have joined the EFTA for single market access, allowed the free movement of people, and even joined the Schengen Area.

Have you not asked yourself why these eurosceptic countries, which are supposedly a prime example of life outside of the EU, have still joined the single market, still allow free movement of people, still pay into the EU budget, still follow many EU regulations and are effectively members if the EU in all but name?

Might I also add that, despite Switzerland's ability to sign all those global FTAs Brexit supporters bang on about, the percentage of their export trade to the EU is almost exactly the same as ours - around 45%.

They've had decades to negotiate their own FTAs. Where are the supposed fruits of these deals which have reduced reliance on EU single market trade?

 

[ShirleyM]

You go your way, I'll go mine.

There are risks either way. Status quo does not exist.

Nobody really knows what will happen with Brexit, but we know for sure which way the EU is heading and what the EU wants to happen, and I would climb Mt Everest/take my chance/'insert your choice of sacrifice here', to avoid the UK being part of the EU's vision of the future. It's '1984', but in real life, demonstrated by the EU's persistence in ignoring the wishes of the EU people.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Do you have evidence of that?

My understanding is that it is the other way round. ie we run a significant trade deficit with the EU.

That's not how it works. Import/export deficits have nothing to do with it.

They account for almost 45% of our export trade. We account for no more than a tenth of theirs.

Who do you think is in the stronger position?

In monetary terms, they do import more to us than we export to them, but that would only put us in the stronger position if the UK was the only country the EU trades with. In reality, the vast, vast majority of their export trade goes elsewhere.

Let's not also forget that the trade deficit is only related to goods. Our trade in services with the EU is at a huge surplus, and considering that the service sector makes up 78% of our entire economy, this is extremely beneficial to us.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Pro-Brexit business leaders in the UK are currently discussing with their European counterparts this potential solution to the UK's continued single market access, which they will try to push for in the event of an exit:

It would work like this:

• Britain votes to leave the EU.

• Negotiations begin on Britain's new relationship with the EU.

• The UK offers to maintain at least part of its contribution to the EU budget - at present about £8.5bn a year including rebates and EU support for British agriculture and research.

• In return, Britain withdraws from the free movement of people requirements but allows for a lesser "free movement of labour" which allows for workers from the EU to come to the UK with a firm job offer.

So we'd still be paying into the EU, still have to abide by single market regulations and still have to allow the free movement of any EU citizen providing they have a job offer, with the lowest earners still receiving tax credits.

This proposal is coming from Brexit supporters as well, with no guarantee at all that the EU would even accept it.

Considering that:

• 61% of EU immigrants enter the UK with a job offer already in place
  
  
• A portion of immigrants coming to look for work can just focus on pro-actively securing a job before entering instead
  
  
• Immigrants without a job currently can't claim benefits for the first 3 months and can only claim jobseekers allowance for a maximum of 91 days after that, and must pass an habitual residency test to remain, thereby meaning they're forced out by the system anyway if they can't find work

This might drop combined non-EEA and EEA long-stay migration by what? 10%? If that?

So we'll be risking a severe economic downturn which damages the NHS, housing, schools and living standards for British people, all to still pay into the EU, still abide by most single market regulations and still allow the vast majority of current migration levels into the UK to continue?

And these proposals are coming from Brexit sympathisers too, with the real probability that the EU may turn around and say that even that is not enough.

 

[Newchodge]

One of the areas that is apparently ignored in the current argument is the terror of the EU that Brexit may lead to other referenda and other countries wanting to leave. It is therefore in the EU's paramount interest to make it as hard as possible for the UK if we vote to leave, so others aren't tempted to follow suit. It used to be called 'pour encourager les autres'.

 

[simon field]

Another Ignoramus!

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Another Ignoramus!

He's clearly motivated by self-interest above all else. It's clear as day in the article.

His comment on the movement of non-EEA workers, for example:

"We're not allowed to employ them, unless they're from the EU," he said. "At the moment, if we want to hire a foreign engineer, it takes four-and-a-half months to go through the Home Office procedure. It's crazy.

Sounds to me as though he's more annoyed that the points-based visa system which governs non-EEA immigration is not as free as the EU's migration model, even though most Brexit supporters want to keep that same system for non-EEA nationals and apply it to EEA nationals as well.

This is also rather amusing/interesting:

It highlighted that in 2000 Sir James had said Britain would be "suicidal" not to join the single currency and that in 2014 he had called for the free movement of people within the EU to be retained.

As for his fight with the European Court regarding vacuum cleaner labels:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34788969

He claims that energy usage tests are unfair against his bagless vacuum cleaners because vacuum cleaners with bags are tested without any dust in the receptacle. Yet he offers no alternative testing method which factors in dust whilst keeping the tests accurate, reliable and reproducible.

And they're entirely right. This is just him throwing his toys out of the pram because the EU has ruled against him.

 

[ShirleyM]

One of the areas that is apparently ignored in the current argument is the terror of the EU that Brexit may lead to other referenda and other countries wanting to leave.

Why is that the fault of the UK? Surely, if countries or people want to leave the EU, the fault lies wholly with the EU?

 

[Newchodge]

Why is that the fault of the UK? Surely, if countries or people want to leave the EU, the fault lies wholly with the EU?

Please indicate where I said it was the fault of the UK.

Whether there is fault or not it will affect the attitude of the EU towards negotiations in the event of an exit vote/

 

[ShirleyM]

Please indicate where I said it was the fault of the UK.

Whether there is fault or not it will affect the attitude of the EU towards negotiations in the event of an exit vote/

OK. Fair enough. You didn't say those actual words, but the implication was there.

However, my view is that if the EU intends to be so nasty and vindictive, then it supports the Leave campaign even more. If bullying other countries and instilling fear of future 'punishment' is the only way they can keep members then that says far more about the EU and it's dictatorial attitude.

 

[Newchodge]

OK. Fair enough. You didn't say those actual words, but the implication was there.

However, my view is that if the EU intends to be so nasty and vindictive, then it supports the Leave campaign even more. If bullying other countries and instilling fear of future 'punishment' is the only way they can keep members then that says far more about the EU and it's dictatorial attitude.

Are you deliberately missing the point?

The Brexiters keep saying that the EU will have to negotiate a good deal with us, based, as far as I can see, purely on wishful thinking. I am giving a concrete reason why that will not happen.

 

[KM-Tiger]

The Brexiters keep saying that the EU will have to negotiate a good deal with us, based, as far as I can see, purely on wishful thinking.

Not wishful thinking. There are clauses in the Lisbon Treaty and WTO rules (that all EU countries are signed up to) that would have a bearing on how the EU dealt with us.

That said, there is nothing to stop them being awkward, but if that's the case then it just reinforces that we made the right decision.

 

[ShirleyM]

Are you deliberately missing the point?

The Brexiters keep saying that the EU will have to negotiate a good deal with us, based, as far as I can see, purely on wishful thinking. I am giving a concrete reason why that will not happen.

You certainly are.

If the EU refuse to give us a trade deal it will show their true nature, and everyone loses out. The more the EU try to bully people the more resistance they will receive, and not just from the UK, but from other EU countries too. People all over the EU are fed up with the EU not listening to them.

 

[john1989]

I was not born when the EU was formed.

We are a net contributor to the EU. The second largest to be exact.

There are more countries that take more out of the EU than those that contribute. I never got a say on whether I wanted a proportion of my tax to go to countries such as Bulgaria, Romania and Spain. On June 23rd I do have a say and I will be voting to exit the EU. I think that long term, there is more to be achieved by being out of the EU.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

@ShirleyM could you run over the proposed deal pro-Brexit business leaders are discussing here and give me your views?

The same goes for everyone else, actually. I'd be interested to hear whether you would be happy for the UK to go down this route in the event of Brexit.

 

[ShirleyM]

@ShirleyM could you run over the proposed deal pro-Brexit business leaders are discussing here and give me your views?

First things first. Lets get out of the EU and then (try to) get a decent government in power.

If we vote Leave we will not actually exit until 2018 at the soonest. There will be a General Election in 2020. I am sure the parties up for election will not have identical manifestos. The voting public will make a democratic choice.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I never got a say on whether I wanted a proportion of my tax to go to countries such as Bulgaria, Romania and Spain.

The UK sent out £12.2billion in foreign aid last year, which is more than the total UK net contribution to the EU budget. Did you get a say in that?

In 2015 we gave:

Pakistan - £351million
Ethiopia - £334million
Nigeria - £253million
Syria - £201million
Bangladesh - £157million
India - £150million (which has its own space program)

Did you get a say in any of that?

If you didn't get a say, but you're happy it occurs to help developing nations, then why aren't you also happy about some of the EU budget going into development projects for our poorer neighbours within Europe?

 

[Newchodge]

That makes sense. Vote leave in 2016, negotiate conditions between 2016 and 2018 then elect a government in 2020 based on what conditions they are going to negotiate. Do you understand chronology?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

First things first. Lets get out of the EU and then (try to) get a decent government in power.

If we vote Leave we will not actually exit until 2018 at the soonest. There will be a General Election in 2020. I am sure the parties up for election will not have identical manifestos. The voting public will make a democratic choice.

With all of the major political parties of the UK being mostly pro-EU, I'm not sure what you expect from that.

But still, this proposal is coming from pro-Brexit business leaders. If that proposal came to fruition, would you be happy with that?

 

[john1989]

The UK sent out £12.2billion in foreign aid last year, which is more than the total UK net contribution to the EU budget. Did you get a say in that?

In 2015 we gave:

Pakistan - £351million
Ethiopia - £334million
Nigeria - £253million
Syria - £201million
Bangladesh - £157million
India - £150million (which has its own space program)

Did you get a say in any of that?

If you didn't get a say, but you're happy it occurs to help developing nations, then why aren't you also happy about some of the EU budget going into development projects for our poorer neighbours within Europe?

Yes I got a say.

I got a say at the general election.

I voted UKIP but the Tories were voted in. But that's democracy. It might not be perfect, but it is more democratic than the EU.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I wonder how many of the brexiters on this thread have actually taken advantage of the wonderful opportunities of working in Europe? How many have made sales trips to visit European companies? How many will see a reduction in their income because their trade with the EU will cease?

I am guessing none.

 

[ShirleyM]

How many have made sales trips to visit European companies?

Why restrict anyone to the EU? There's a whole world out there, and we don't have to accept freedom of movement when trading with non-EU countries.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Yes I got a say.

I got a say at the general election.

I voted UKIP but the Tories were voted in. But that's democracy. It might not be perfect, but it is more democratic than the EU.

Ahh, UKIP.

The party in the 2015 General Election which got 12.7% of the popular vote but only 1 MP, whilst the Lib Dems got 7.9% of the vote and 8 MPs, and the Tories got 35.8% of the vote and 330 MPs.

Conservatives - one MP per 34,200 votes
Lib Dems - one MP per 301,000 votes
Labour - one MP per 40,200 votes
UKIP - one MP per 3,881,099 votes

Are you sure it's more democratic than the EU?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Why restrict anyone to the EU? There's a whole world out there, and we don't have to accept freedom of movement when trading with non-EU countries.

Any thoughts on whether you would be happy with that pro-Brexit single market proposal I asked you about?

 

[KM-Tiger]

Are you sure it's more democratic than the EU?

Certainly not perfect, as I was one of the 3.8 M UKIP voters in 2015 GE.

But yes, voters in this country do have the power to change govts, and have significantly done so in 1944, 1979, 1997, 2010, and 2015. Voters have no such power in respect of the EU.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Why restrict anyone to the EU? There's a whole world out there, and we don't have to accept freedom of movement when trading with non-EU countries.

So your answer is no? You have zero experience of foreign trade????