Epos lease renewed on same equipment.

[Neil Upton]

July 2017 I took out a 5 year lease on Epos equipment for my pub. The same company then came back in may 2019 and told me that the software needed upgrading and to do that I needed to take on another lease. This lease was with a different company. Now I’ve just finished my accounts and the original lease has not been cancelled and settled. Having checked a few things can anyone answer. Doesn’t the original equipment belong to the first lease company. If so how can they re-lease it with a different company. How can there be 2 lease on the same equipment. Is this not illegal or fraud.

 

[Mr D]

What do the leases say about it?

 

[Neil Upton]

What do the leases say about it?

The original hire agreement says the equipments belong to them. I can’t sell it or move it to a different premises. If I default or give notice then I must pay the remainder and return the equipment.
Second agreement is very similar.

 

[Mr D]

So nothing about 2nd lease amending the first or covering it or whatever?

 

[Neil Upton]

the time

So nothing about 2nd lease amending the first or covering it or whatever?

no nothing.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
They are 2 separate leases and both still running and both set up by same Epos company.
That’s the problem. I’m paying twice for same equipment.
Thanks.

 

[Mark T Jones]

The answer here will lie in the discussions you had with the supplier.

Were there promises made - preferably in writing?

What documentation do you have?

 

[bovine]

The original lease would have been for the hardware and that version of software. 2 years later the software update would have an additional cost which they have leased separately, hence why you have 2. The second one wont have replaced the first, but is in addition to (assuming the documentation matches that). How much difference in cost is there? Presumably the second lease is significantly lower than the first?

The EPoS software we provide includes all updates for 2 years if purchased and after that you can update to a version that will allow another 2 years of updates. Costs about 50% of the original software price. Not compulsory, unless you want/need any of the updated functionality. So it sounds like a similar scenario.

We would never lease a software update though.

Nowadays its mostly Saas anyway, so the whole software system is billed monthly, basically renting the software. Reduces the initial capital cost considerably and keeps everything up to date.

What company is this with/what software are you using? Feel free to private message if you dont want to post it.

 

[Alison Moore]

I'd go back to your suppliers who provided the equipment and ask them to clarify. It doesn't sound too bad though... it sounds like the hardware and initial software was provided under one lease, and it was then upgraded under a second lease - so unless you had additional hardware supplied, this second lease would have just covered the new software. We don't sell EPOS systems like this as our software works off a standard PC, however that would be my best guess in this scenario.

 

[Neil Upton]

The original lease would have been for the hardware and that version of software. 2 years later the software update would have an additional cost which they have leased separately, hence why you have 2. The second one wont have replaced the first, but is in addition to (assuming the documentation matches that). How much difference in cost is there? Presumably the second lease is significantly lower than the first?

The EPoS software we provide includes all updates for 2 years if purchased and after that you can update to a version that will allow another 2 years of updates. Costs about 50% of the original software price. Not compulsory, unless you want/need any of the updated functionality. So it sounds like a similar scenario.

We would never lease a software update though.

Nowadays its mostly Saas anyway, so the whole software system is billed monthly, basically renting the software. Reduces the initial capital cost considerably and keeps everything up to date.

What company is this with/what software are you using? Feel free to private message if you dont want to post it.

Thanks for your reply.
The original "Hire Agreement" 27/07/2017 for a SAM4S ( New) , POS ready EPOS System Included and Backoffice , £343.75 + vat and 19 quarterly payments of £342.75 + vat.

Second "Hire Agreement" with completely different company for Sam4S EPOS System ( including software) , £437.14 + vat and 19 quarterly payments of £437.14 + vat.

Company is trading as 1Call4 from Leeds on companies House , Vibe Print Limited.
Thanks
Neil

 

[Neil Upton]

I'd go back to your suppliers who provided the equipment and ask them to clarify. It doesn't sound too bad though... it sounds like the hardware and initial software was provided under one lease, and it was then upgraded under a second lease - so unless you had additional hardware supplied, this second lease would have just covered the new software. We don't sell EPOS systems like this as our software works off a standard PC, however that would be my best guess in this scenario.

The original "Hire Agreement" 27/07/2017 for a SAM4S ( New) , POS ready EPOS System Included and Backoffice , £343.75 + vat and 19 quarterly payments of £342.75 + vat.

Second "Hire Agreement" with completely different company for Sam4S EPOS System ( including software) , £437.14 + vat and 19 quarterly payments of £437.14 + vat.

Company is trading as 1Call4 from Leeds on companies House , Vibe Print Limited.

Thanks
Neil

 

[Alison Moore]

Hmm yes that isn't at all like I guessed and yep, that looks like they've got you re-leasing the same equipment over 2x 5 year leases.

Definitely go back to the company who supplied the equipment and the upgrade as they should have either warned you that the existing lease would still stand and you'd have to pay for the original lease and the new one, or or they should have cancelled the original one when you took out the new.

 

[Mr D]

Thanks for your reply.
The original "Hire Agreement" 27/07/2017 for a SAM4S ( New) , POS ready EPOS System Included and Backoffice , £343.75 + vat and 19 quarterly payments of £342.75 + vat.

Second "Hire Agreement" with completely different company for Sam4S EPOS System ( including software) , £437.14 + vat and 19 quarterly payments of £437.14 + vat.

Company is trading as 1Call4 from Leeds on companies House , Vibe Print Limited.
Thanks
Neil

That ..... sounds odd.
Second I can understand, second plus first appears to offer same service twice.

 

[Neil Upton]

The answer here will lie in the discussions you had with the supplier.

Were there promises made - preferably in writing?

What documentation do you have?

Many thanks for replying.

Sorry, no promises in writimg.

I have 2 "Hire Agreements" from different finance companies both listing the same equipment as new and including software , first one for 20 payments of £342.75 quarterly and later one for 20 payments of £437.14 quarterly.
After reading lots of good advice on here , i have realised I should have read them before signing, should not trust friendly salesmen's promises unless in writing and B2B contracts are binding.
Many thanks
Neil

 

[Neil Upton]

Hmm yes that isn't at all like I guessed and yep, that looks like they've got you re-leasing the same equipment over 2x 5 year leases.

Definitely go back to the company who supplied the equipment and the upgrade as they should have either warned you that the existing lease would still stand and you'd have to pay for the original lease and the new one, or or they should have cancelled the original one when you took out the new.

I have tried but no one will speak to me , I have now look on Companies Hose and got the Directors names and have emailed them , so if it shakes things up a bit.
Thanks
Neil

 

[Neil Upton]

That ..... sounds odd.
Second I can understand, second plus first appears to offer same service twice.

Exactly. Ive tried emailing and ringing the equipment supplier and getting no answer.
Been on Companies House and got Directors names and have emailed my concerns, lets see what happens.
Is it not illegal, or at least underhand, to lease equipment that still technically belongs to the original finance company.
Is there any leverage I can use to get them to sort this out ASAP , like the FSA ombudsman or similar.
Regards
Neil

 

[Alison Moore]

You could speak to the leasing companies too... I know they'll say 'it was a business contract and you signed' etc etc etc but they have each have a lease on the same equipment which can't be legit and I expect they are completely unaware of that. It will be a headache getting anyone there to listen as they're often massive organisations, but if the company who supplied the equipment isn't helping then it's an avenue worth exploring.

 

[Alison Moore]

Also it sounds a bit like a PPI scam type thing.. The company who sold you the goods will be getting commission on the leases they sell, so by getting you to sign up to two leases they're getting double the commission...

 

[Neil Upton]

You could speak to the leasing companies too... I know they'll say 'it was a business contract and you signed' etc etc etc but they have each have a lease on the same equipment which can't be legit and I expect they are completely unaware of that. It will be a headache getting anyone there to listen as they're often massive organisations, but if the company who supplied the equipment isn't helping then it's an avenue worth exploring.

Thanks for helping.

I spoke to original finance company and told them, they sent me a settlement figure and instructed me to return the equipment, I told them the circumstances, are they are telling me I am liable under T&C's of Agreement. Over £2000.
I just need some leverage to go to the supplier with, which will force them to settle this and any overpayments I've made, or even court action.
Regards
Neil

 

[Neil Upton]

Also it sounds a bit like a PPI scam type thing.. The company who sold you the goods will be getting commission on the leases they sell, so by getting you to sign up to two leases they're getting double the commission...

Hi Alison.
Its a "legitimate" company and I don't think they are getting commission , but getting paid twice for the same goods. The software licences and support could arguably be charged but not the equipment.

Regards
Neil

 

[bovine]

I know the hardware, am aware of the company and quite possibly know the software you are using very well. I havent heard anything good or bad about them, which is usually a good sign!

Without more information, I would say the second lease should have replaced the first, but I dont think any of the leasing companies i've dealt with would accept second hand kit. The second lease will be for about £5000-£6000 at an estimate, so probably 3-4 till points with printers at a guess (back-office software, bundled support and other things could change that though). A software update, or indeed complete software change would not cost that unless you had a lot of tills, which from the first lease you dont.

There is really no way a software update would cost more than the original install cost. I strongly suspect a mistake has been made.

Lease companies in this sector do pay out a small commission to resellers and pay soon after installation. Thats why its a good thing for resellers as it removes risk. The commission is only a bonus.

Get on to the bosses and see what they say. Happy to look at any documentation you may have about what has been supplied.

 

[Neil Upton]

I know the hardware, am aware of the company and quite possibly know the software you are using very well. I havent heard anything good or bad about them, which is usually a good sign!

Without more information, I would say the second lease should have replaced the first, but I dont think any of the leasing companies i've dealt with would accept second hand kit. The second lease will be for about £5000-£6000 at an estimate, so probably 3-4 till points with printers at a guess (back-office software, bundled support and other things could change that though). A software update, or indeed complete software change would not cost that unless you had a lot of tills, which from the first lease you dont.

There is really no way a software update would cost more than the original install cost. I strongly suspect a mistake has been made.

Lease companies in this sector do pay out a small commission to resellers and pay soon after installation. Thats why its a good thing for resellers as it removes risk. The commission is only a bonus.

Get on to the bosses and see what they say. Happy to look at any documentation you may have about what has been supplied.

Hi.
Thanks for you help.

Ive been royally overcharged here, haven't I.

The original lease (Kingsway Asset Finance Ltd) was for 1 till , 1, thermal printer , cash drawer and software.( TouchOffice ).

Second lease (Shire leasing , then Aldemore ) was for exact same kit ( was not given new equipment) , updated software and now included support package. Although , now checking the lease ( a bit late now) it does not mention the support package.
Regards
Neil

 

[bovine]

The first one sounds high to me, but its not really possible to say without knowing what extra included - 5 years support, additional cable installation at the start could have been included and the rate on the lease could he high (pubs are generally not brilliant for leasing). The original quote would offer better insight.
But the second one is just plain wrong from what you have said. Nothing short of a complete substantial new system would account for that amount extra per month while keeping the old lease running.
I'm not sure on how much recourse you have as these are b2b transactions and you will have needed to confirm with the leasing company you are happy with both the installs before they pay out to the installer(thats how the ones ive dealt with work). Keep on at the original installers until you can speak to them - they shouldnt be ignoring your calls. This only makes sense to me if there has been a genuine error, or possibly a rogue salesperson.
Btw, I have seen some leases that dont include all the items from the original quotes as items - support and software are not physical assets and some leasing companies wont cover them. So the cost gets wrapped up in the till part of it. Dig out the original quotes/correspondence as these will give you a better idea of whats been agreed.

On a side note, if you are still trading and not using the web version of the back-office, get someone to show it to you. Its so much better than the desktop version. Can also be used with the table ordering/takeaway applications to help with the current situations. If you need a different reseller to help you, pm over you details and I'll get some one to contact you. Wont be us, you're a bit far away I think.

 

[Neil Upton]

The first one sounds high to me, but its not really possible to say without knowing what extra included - 5 years support, additional cable installation at the start could have been included and the rate on the lease could he high (pubs are generally not brilliant for leasing). The original quote would offer better insight.
But the second one is just plain wrong from what you have said. Nothing short of a complete substantial new system would account for that amount extra per month while keeping the old lease running.
I'm not sure on how much recourse you have as these are b2b transactions and you will have needed to confirm with the leasing company you are happy with both the installs before they pay out to the installer(thats how the ones ive dealt with work). Keep on at the original installers until you can speak to them - they shouldnt be ignoring your calls. This only makes sense to me if there has been a genuine error, or possibly a rogue salesperson.
Btw, I have seen some leases that dont include all the items from the original quotes as items - support and software are not physical assets and some leasing companies wont cover them. So the cost gets wrapped up in the till part of it. Dig out the original quotes/correspondence as these will give you a better idea of whats been agreed.

On a side note, if you are still trading and not using the web version of the back-office, get someone to show it to you. Its so much better than the desktop version. Can also be used with the table ordering/takeaway applications to help with the current situations. If you need a different reseller to help you, pm over you details and I'll get some one to contact you. Wont be us, you're a bit far away I think.

Hi
I greatly appreciate you taking time to help me out on this.

The first install was as simple as getting the Till , printer and drawer out of the box , plugging them together ,setting them up ,showing me how it worked and how to use TouchOffice Web on my laptop . No Cabling at all and there is no original quote or mention of support or software licence and nothing in writing except the Hire Agreement.
The second install was even easier.

Anyway , I have now had contact from the supplier.
I will PM you.

Once again , many thanks.
Neil