Employing apprentice before course start date and pay

So I understand apprentices can be paid ANMW for the first year then their age based NMW thereon.

What if for example I seek to hire an apprentice in a Feb but the college course start date isnt until September?

So it first year actual physical year feb 20 to feb 21 or first academic year sep 20 to sep 21
 

Newchodge

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    What does your (legally required) apprenticeship agreement say? On what basis are they an apprentice before September? How will they get their 1 day per week off-site training?

    You can only pay ANMW to a bona fide apprentice. You can offer an apprenticeship to an existing employee.
     
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    paulears

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    I think some people get mixed up between the desire to train people in particular skills so that both parties benefit, and getting somebody to work long hours for low money. The second is NOT an apprenticeship. I see the benefit for plumbing, electrical and engineering firms and a few other specialist industries, but an apprenticeship is now available in so many unworthy jobs it makes a mockery of the system.

    DO you have the time to do the one-to-one training?
     
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    You misinterpret my intentions.
    And have the time and desire to train somebody. But if the latter for example it would surely be hard to swallow for them to go from £6.15ph to 3.90ph upon September course start date... whereas the former I can stomach paying the 6.15ph from feb 21 as by this point they will be able to work independently in certain areas, enough to be able to generate me a fair amount of revenue.
     
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    Newchodge

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    As I said: On what basis are they an apprentice before September? If they are not an apprentice you cannot pay them less than age-related minimum wage. If they later take on a real apprenticeship with you, you can choose what to pay them, based on their worth to you, as long as it is at least apprentice minimum wage.
     
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    Chris Ashdown

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    Remember how you treat these youngsters may be how someone else will treat your one kids someday

    There are plenty of alternatives to most staffing problems including just fixed hour contracts, tell us the problem your trying to solve and you may get alternative solutions from the forum also make sure you fully understand the employment regulations fully
     
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    As I said: On what basis are they an apprentice before September? If they are not an apprentice you cannot pay them less than age-related minimum wage. If they later take on a real apprenticeship with you, you can choose what to pay them, based on their worth to you, as long as it is at least apprentice minimum wage.

    I guess the black and white of it is they are not. I remember going back to when I was an apprentice though and I started 7 weeks before college started on apprentice wage.
     
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    Then its not an apprentice you want.
    Its simply someone young that you want to employ.

    Pay minimum wage and the first chance of more money you'll be looking to start again with another cheap unskilled pair of hands.

    You are wrong.

    At the moment I need a second pair of hands for more menial duties such as man handling and admin etc. And as the business grows will be needing a qualified technician also able to work independently.
     
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    paulears

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    If the person has been accepted onto the programme, then strictly speaking their commitment is a set minimum number of hours of training that gets assessed. I don't think it is specific in a set number of hours per week, so the date the contract is signed may well be sufficient. You'd need to check the wording. It may specify a completion date, and not a start date? Worth checking with the college I suppose. They'll be claiming too, based on their interpretation of start date, and that too could be different from the date of the first contact with the teaching staff?
     
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    So at the moment you don't need an apprentice.
    You need a worker.
    I'm not sure what your point is. And it's hard to use context to hazard a guess when you put one liners and no advice. But it makes zero sense to hire somebody then take time training them in performing lower end works, just to bin them off come the start of the academic year so be literally back to square one. It makes perfect sense to want to take somebody on with a view of taking them forward with me.
     
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    GazNicki

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    I have spoken to a local college in the past about apprenticeships for a large company. You can take on an apprentice before the course start date, but you need to source the apprentice from a training/education provider.

    There are specific companies that only deal with training, and they conduct the training either at your place of work, or you release the trainee for a day per week (which you pay them for) so that they can complete the required coursework.

    There is also the requirement for you to show them the relevant information for their course.

    It is therefore imperative that you contact a training provider to source your apprentice. They will conduct the relevant safety checks and then provide you with the information you need regarding payment before the course start date, etc.

    Also, not every course starts in September. There are some enrollments in January too - so you can get an apprentice now in many cases.

    In terms of payment, this is down to the contract and the training length.

    The apprentice must be in training for a minimum of 12 months. My understanding is that you can hire them on an apprentice contract, providing you have an agreement with a training provider in place - and therefore pay them the apprentice wage.

    The wage is currently £3.90 for any apprentice under 19, or for an apprentice over 19 in their first year.

    So, if you take on an apprentice that is 16, you pay them £3.90 per hour until they either complete the apprenticeship (they then go onto at least minimum wage) or they turn 19 (provided they are still in their apprenticeship).

    The course length is not the determining factor for the apprenticeship contract - it just has to be a minimum of 12 months.

    So, if you have a position for a Technician, and you find a provider that is offering a course that suits your industry, you can sign up an apprentice tomorrow with an appropriate contact of employment and pay them £3.90 per hour. You have to commit to providing them with the paid leave when they start their course, and the contract must cover the length of their course plus the extra time you're employing them. You will also be liable for their holidays and other benefits from the start of employment - not the start of the course.

    So if you employ someone tomorrow, and their course starts in September, they are still entitled to paid holidays which they will accrue from tomorrow.

    Also, if you employ an apprentice tomorrow who is 19 now, then on the 31/12/2020 they may be entitled to £6.50 per hour until the end of their course - even if the course is 12 months. Your provider can assist with clearing this up too.
     
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    paulears

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    The problem is that people do not understand what apprenticeships should be for!
    Training new minimum wage staff is not remotely like putting somebody on an apprenticeship. On the job training is done by every employer and provides the skills needed to do the job - to function, to be useful and an asset. Apprenticeships provide a framework to get somebody very useful, and perhaps difficult to recruit, in the future. They have a real cost, but also advantages. You or one of your staff will have to teach them - to a framework, with a specific standard. This person may even need to be trained in how to do this. They might, depending on industry and awarding body (because it's a real qualifiction) need to get qualified themselves. Assessor training, and even assessor assessor training. The college will have somebody in your organisation tasked with assessing and verifying work done by the apprentice against an approved and contractually agreed scheme of work. This costs you in time and money. You get to pay them less, because it's costing you! At the end of the scheme you have a worker that will probably command higher than minimum or living wage, because YOU gave them a qualification - perhaps the one you ask for in job ads for more specialised personnel? Traditionally time served apprentices command higher pay, and once trained can leave you and work for somebody else, grateful for the training YOU provided. Somebody employed to make tea does not need to know the history of the East India Company, or know how to test the ph value of the water and assess the mineral content - your apprentice tea maker would!

    Even in those job areas where there now are apprentice schemes that appear odd - retail is a good case in point - they will need to be put in charge of things to complete the course. Maybe complaints, or hours, overtime, commission, stock ordering etc etc - things perhaps done by somebody more senior. This senior person can't just wing it - they'll have too follow prescribed methods that the apprentices get taught in college. They then come back and do it for you. Many firms discover the staff time costs in the paperwork and admin burden make apprenticeships quite expensive. Many of the big coffee chains, for example, run these schemes to get their staff qualified and ultimately more useful - they don't do them to save money!
     
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    Chris Ashdown

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    Not sure about apprenticeships, we tried a few and quite honestly it just seems a con for the kids to work for cheap rates

    Obviously some traditional apprenticeships are fantastic; and give a great future in a trade, but what we found was a college that offered one day of training on very basic lessons which had little to do with the jobs involved and just cheap labour doing basic jobs in the company

    Most companies especially small ones do not have training staff in house and say a apprentice for accounting would just be given a job inserting invoices into sage, We had computer apprentices who were only good enough to input products into the sites with little interest to actually learn about SEO or how e-commerce works

    I feel quite lousy now but feel conned by the publicity, we were approached by thye college to take on these people and imagined that the days at college were training them, and they were learning a trade with us, but it just worked out we were the cannon fodder for the college, when all we wanted to do was to help the kids into some sort of work, we did not use them as low cost employees but just tried to give them some jobs within their capabilities that in reality meant they were doing boring jobs and soon became uninterested
     
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    GazNicki

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    The problem is that people do not understand what apprenticeships should be for!
    Training new minimum wage staff is not remotely like putting somebody on an apprenticeship. On the job training is done by every employer and provides the skills needed to do the job - to function, to be useful and an asset. Apprenticeships provide a framework to get somebody very useful, and perhaps difficult to recruit, in the future. They have a real cost, but also advantages. You or one of your staff will have to teach them - to a framework, with a specific standard. This person may even need to be trained in how to do this. They might, depending on industry and awarding body (because it's a real qualifiction) need to get qualified themselves. Assessor training, and even assessor assessor training. The college will have somebody in your organisation tasked with assessing and verifying work done by the apprentice against an approved and contractually agreed scheme of work. This costs you in time and money. You get to pay them less, because it's costing you! At the end of the scheme you have a worker that will probably command higher than minimum or living wage, because YOU gave them a qualification - perhaps the one you ask for in job ads for more specialised personnel? Traditionally time served apprentices command higher pay, and once trained can leave you and work for somebody else, grateful for the training YOU provided. Somebody employed to make tea does not need to know the history of the East India Company, or know how to test the ph value of the water and assess the mineral content - your apprentice tea maker would!

    Even in those job areas where there now are apprentice schemes that appear odd - retail is a good case in point - they will need to be put in charge of things to complete the course. Maybe complaints, or hours, overtime, commission, stock ordering etc etc - things perhaps done by somebody more senior. This senior person can't just wing it - they'll have too follow prescribed methods that the apprentices get taught in college. They then come back and do it for you. Many firms discover the staff time costs in the paperwork and admin burden make apprenticeships quite expensive. Many of the big coffee chains, for example, run these schemes to get their staff qualified and ultimately more useful - they don't do them to save money!

    There is no love react on here, but if there was - this post would get it.

    An apprenticeship needs to be treated properly. It's not a money saving exercise, it is investment in the future of a young person - and ultimately in your own company.

    If your company does need help, and you want to train someone up to stay with you for a long time - then an apprenticeship works. But you need to be aware that you will ultimately be paying them more than minimum wage to stay, as they are now skilled workers.
     
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    Mr D

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    I'm not sure what your point is. And it's hard to use context to hazard a guess when you put one liners and no advice. But it makes zero sense to hire somebody then take time training them in performing lower end works, just to bin them off come the start of the academic year so be literally back to square one. It makes perfect sense to want to take somebody on with a view of taking them forward with me.

    You say you want an apprentice but then your postings indicate you need an unskilled pair of hands to train up.
    The two may be similar but they are not the same.

    You take someone on at low pay, don't be surprised if you have to start again in a few weeks as they find something paying better.
    A few jobs the apprentice stays to finish apprenticeship - the completion is worth far more to them than moving to different employment would.

    But if you want to do things on the cheap you can do. Apprenticeship probably not the cheapest option for your business though.
    More thorough training than if you just take on an unskilled worker, longer training period - but not often cheapest.
     
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