Eco Business - A Separate Forum Section?

[RayB]

On the other hand if we have a forum title that is very seo friendly then maybe we can conquer the whole of the world not just the members on UKBF, think you are beginning to convert me.

Thats the spirit, now you get it, a whole new audience and membership of really nice people who did not relate to UKBF before

 

Exactly the point.

 

True - and by the same token, the 'Report post' button needs care too, to keep the spammers out.




Cool, anyone got any reservations about 'The Green Room'? As with all the other sections, it would have a description too, something like: 'Discussion on eco-friendly business practices and corporate social responsibility'.

Yes, I know CSR is a bull**** bingo acronym, but I think this is where the real value of 'green business' lies - it says exactly what it means, in its own rather flowery way.

THe green room is not a good title SEO wise.

"environmental issues" or "as a second choice "green issues"

or if you think your man enough go for "environmental"

Earl

 

[Chris Kaday]

No agenda here Ray. Surely you are the one with the agenda - a green agenda - good luck with it.

Regards

Chris

This thread has had a lot of traffic, and a lot of input from one member (me) as the thread starter to keep the debate balanced and on topic, whilst respecting all views.

Once you have started an important thread as such as this, which evokes many emotions and much heated input (that needs chairing), you will have earned the right to have a sarcastic dig.

In the meantime, I wish you well with whatever your agenda is

 

.......... deleted.

 

This thread has had a lot of traffic, and a lot of input from one member (me) as the thread starter to keep the debate balanced and on topic, whilst respecting all views.

Once you have started an important thread as such as this, which evokes many emotions and much heated input (that needs chairing), you will have earned the right to have a sarcastic dig.

In the meantime, I wish you well with whatever your agenda is

You don't have to earn the right to have sarcastic digs,they should flow naturally and effortlessly.One is aware that the green issue is important for you,and you have fought for it with great passion.But one must bare in mind that not all people give a toss about green

personally I am much more interested in Gold

Besides everyone knows the bloke in Blackadder discovered Green

Earl

 

[RayB]

You don't have to earn the right to have sarcastic digs,they should flow naturally and effortlessly.

With hindsight you are indeed correct sir

But one must bare in mind that not all people give a toss about green

Agreed, and that is fair enough, but more people are becoming interested in at least considering the issues

Besides everyone knows the bloke in Blackadder discovered Green

I thought it was turnips

THe green room is not a good title SEO wise.

Agreed from an SEO point of view this woould NOT be good

"environmental issues" or "as a second choice "green issues"

or if you think your man enough go for "environmental"

"Eco" is good too (people type this a lot when searching as it is shorter.
Something like:

Eco Business Forum > Discuss Green and Environmental Issues | UK Business Forums

 

I thought it was turnips

Baldrick was far to busy doing various culinary wonders with various types of rodents

Percy: (rushes out the living room, dirtied) My Lord! Success!

Edmund: What?

Percy: (drags Edmund into the living room) After literally an hour's
ceaseless searching, I have succeeded in creating gold. PURE GOLD!

Edmund: Are you sure?

Percy: Yes, My Lord! Behold! (uncovers the top; their faces get bathed in
green light)

Edmund: Percy, it's green.

Percy: That's right, My Lord.

Edmund: Yes, Percy, I don't want to be pedantic or anything, but the colour
of gold is gold -- that's why it's called gold. What you have dis-
covered, if it has a name, is some green.

Earl

 

[RayB]

Ah yes - good old Percy - I had forgotten that, classic

 

[multilingual]

It would be helpful the "no" votes perhaps posted a reason - at the moment the posts and votes are not reflective

I voted No, simple because the notion of having a specific eco section would turn me off completely.

Nothing against it whatsoever, in fact I am very eco-friendly myself with all the recycling we do, etc.

However, I am getting a bit of 'compassion fatigue' with this subject and I would probably ignore posts in an eco forum, which would mean that I might miss out on stuff that I would find interesting and relevant.

Yesterday I was reading about how the Government have asked farmers to look into ways in which they can reduce the methane emissions coming from their cattle!

Is it only me that is getting weary of all this?

JB

 

Yesterday I was reading about how the Government have asked farmers to look into ways in which they can reduce the methane emissions coming from their cattle!

Don't give em baked beans for dinner

Know what you mean though,we could all end up living in green houses

Earl

 

[Cornish Steve]

Yesterday I was reading about how the Government have asked farmers to look into ways in which they can reduce the methane emissions coming from their cattle!

I'm going to invent a pilot light for cattle. Whenever cows produce methane (there's a euphemism for you), the pilot flame will burn it off right away. Not only would this reduce methane in the atmosphere, but it would also light up the countryside at night.

 

[RayB]

I'm going to invent a pilot light for cattle. Whenever cows produce methane (there's a euphemism for you), the pilot flame will burn it off right away. Not only would this reduce methane in the atmosphere, but it would also light up the countryside at night.

They are onto something Down Under according the this report in the news last week

Dont think it will catch on - but cattle do produce a huge amount of methane though

 

[Chris Kaday]

Originally Posted by RayB http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=333945#post333945
It would be helpful the "no" votes perhaps posted a reason - at the moment the posts and votes are not reflective

I posted a rational reason with my NO vote and look where it got me - my motives being questioned, hidden agendas and more.

Chris Kaday

 

[Eco2You]

Originally Posted by RayB
It would be helpful the "no" votes perhaps posted a reason - at the moment the posts and votes are not reflective

I posted a rational reason with my NO vote and look where it got me - my motives being questioned, hidden agendas and more.

Chris Kaday

I only questioned the statement that the overwhleming majority were against, I should really learn to bite my tounge.

 

[Eco2You]

I'm going to invent a pilot light for cattle. Whenever cows produce methane (there's a euphemism for you), the pilot flame will burn it off right away. Not only would this reduce methane in the atmosphere, but it would also light up the countryside at night.

That would be really pretty.

Termites produce even more methane :/

Mind you not as much as I do, after a good curry

 

[RayB]

Originally Posted by RayB
It would be helpful the "no" votes perhaps posted a reason - at the moment the posts and votes are not reflective

I posted a rational reason with my NO vote and look where it got me - my motives being questioned, hidden agendas and more.

Chris Kaday

I think that is a bit over the top

 

[Chris Kaday]

I only questioned the statement that the overwhleming majority were against, I should really learn to bite my tounge.

No worries chum was not referring to you

Chris Kaday

 

[RayB]

No worries chum was not referring to you

Chris Kaday

Sorry Chris - I agree with you, some of the debate has been unconstructive. Bound to be a passionate one - but all views should be respected.

Having said that, on the no side, I have not really seen a good reason NOT to do it, apart from I'm not interested*/I dont want to get involved* (*delete as applicable).

If it does go ahead it WILL attract new members and a new audience.

For those not interested, such as mulltilingual who posted perfectly valid reasons a few posts back, no problems there from me, as nobody will be forced to participate or read the section

Same way as I never read the franchising section as it has no interest/relevance to me

 

[Cornish Steve]

Having said that, on the no side, I have not really seen a good reason NOT to do it, apart from I'm not interested*/I dont want to get involved* (*delete as applicable).

While you contested them, and your prediction of the future is as valid as mine, I still subscribe to the concerns I listed. Whether you classify them as 'good' or not is up to you.

My biggest concern is that you'll marginalise the subject. All the green guys will disappear in the green room, become all rather chummy, and your messages will soon be preaching to the choir. Coupled with this will be a lack of criticism of your posts (and after this thread, don't be surprised if no one takes the trouble to offer constructive criticism). Since criticism is probably the most valuable thing we receive at these forums, you're going to lose out.

In your shoes, I'd want to keep the topic mainstream, seek out criticism because it helps to sharpen our focus, and reach a wider audience. You'll do these things better in the main business forum than ever you will in a sub-forum. (And you'll have little choice because the mods will move green messages from the main forum to the green room.)

Same way as I never read the franchising section as it has no interest/relevance to me

This is exactly the point; I couldn't have put it better! When you push special interest groups to the margins (i.e., to their own sub-forums), the value that comes from diverse opinions is immediately diminished.

Still, you guys are gung-ho for a separate forum and you've made your case to the owners. I wouldn't want to spoil the party.

 

[RayB]

My biggest concern is that you'll marginalise the subject. All the green guys will disappear in the green room, become all rather chummy, and your messages will soon be preaching to the choir. Coupled with this will be a lack of criticism of your posts (and after this thread, don't be surprised if no one takes the trouble to offer constructive criticism). Since criticism is probably the most valuable thing we receive at these forums, you're going to lose out

Hi Steve,

Respect from me as ever - BUT ) ):

• Surely it is not about marginalising a topic, more likely introducing a NEW topic that has no airtime here, as the subject has a home elsewhere (and again, I would rather the topic has a home here)
• As for the "chummy" factor - that pre-supposes that most contributors will be tree hugging extremeist nutters :|
• (RayB drinks beer, eats meat, swears, smokes etc) - no extremism
• I dont get this "you will all blow smoke up each others backsides" at all?
• Finally, I must ask, are you aware how massive the subject is here in the UK/EU?? (No disrespect, but you are in the US, where this stuff is generally bottom of the pile) - so have you got your finger on the pulse of what is popular here? (Cos it is a MASSIVE business subject now)

 

[Cornish Steve]

• are you aware how massive the subject is here in the UK/EU?? (No disrespect, but you are in the US, where this stuff is generally bottom of the pile) - so have you got your finger on the pulse of what is popular here? (Cos it is a MASSIVE business subject now)

Contrary to popular opinion elsewhere, the topic is important in the US too. Indeed, some regulations are stricter here than in Europe; they're just not publicised that much. (Indeed, times on cellphones are all messed up this week because the government extended daylight savings time by a week in order to cut back on energy needs.)

But that's irrelevant to the discussion. I'm not against the topic of eco-friendly business; I'm concerned about separating such companies out from the mainstream and diluting the influence they might otherwise have.

As you rightly point out, you ignore the franchise forum because you have no interest in it. So, it's frequented mostly by franchisees. If the owners create a green room, it will be frequented mostly by green businesses - and you'll lose out as a result.

Anyway, I've made my point a few times. You should promote what you think serves your industry the best.

 

I'm going to invent a pilot light for cattle. Whenever cows produce methane (there's a euphemism for you), the pilot flame will burn it off right away. Not only would this reduce methane in the atmosphere, but it would also light up the countryside at night.

Did you read my post in the Time Out section Steve of a few days ago when I hmmmmmm errrrrrrrrr well, had my first dream ever involving animals, that is, I had a dream about a fire farting lamb, it was rather perturbing to say the least.

I was most concerned in the dream that it's tail might catch on fire and was running after it to try to throw a glass of water over the lil creature, but every time I got near it, it farted again with a blast of fire emanating from it's backside propelling it with a certain velocity up in the air a few feet and several feet forwards.

 

Much as I reasonably try and fathom the combined points of Steve and Chris Kaday, I still cannot see the point that they are striving towards.

They seem to have a real problem with this green eco business section, whatever it gets called in the end.

At first it was statistics, in that the no vote was edging forwards, and after that, well, their reasoning just seems to fly in the face of the majority of posters that actually want it.

I cannot for the life of me understand why they would think that it is a somehow exclusive 'club' or whatever they want to call it. It is simply a place to discuss business in the very ordinary sense with an eco slant on things, with all the information there in contained being available all in one location, I mean really, what is the big deal here? Talk about creating a mountain out of a molehill.

Who gives a stuff about the ethics of it (who's right, who's wrong blahhhhh depending on which side of the fence one sits), I'm certainly not comparing one against the other, but if that's a label which you feel required to stick on us, I guess that's your prerogative. For me, it's all one and the same.

Frankly, quite a few people would like this section obviously, so why not just roll with it and see how it goes? All this doom and gloom talk about it's adverse effects on the rest of the forum, is a load of bumkum. No disrespect.

Just cannot get my head around what the basis of the argument is here.

Very odd.

 

[Chris Kaday]

Just cannot get my head around what the basis of the argument is here.

Absolutely no argument from me matey. Most of my few posts have been to respond to replies which were focused on me not my argument. Get the section up and see how it goes if the moderators are in favor.

By the way have you read Ian Bank's the wasp factory?

Chris Kaday

 

[Rusty]

Just cannot get my head around what the basis of the argument is here.

Very odd.

The basis of mine and I believe Steve's argument is that it will actually do the Eco issue more harm than good. It has nothing to do with whether I think it will change the forum or other such nonsense.

This quote from RayB sums up exactly why I believe that a seperate forum would be a bad idea:-

"Same way as I never read the franchising section as it has no interest/relevance to me"

I strongly feel that the subject will be marginalised, that peoples attitude will be that they have no interest in the subject so will not read it.

Also of the 4,589 active members on this forum only 77 have voted and 12 of these stated that they didn't care either way. The main problem with the majority of businesses is APATHY RULES and what is needed here is to bang the drum loudly and consistently right under their noses because they sure as hell won't come looking.

 

[Chris Kaday]

Also of the 4,589 active members on this forum only 77 have voted and 12 of these stated that they didn't care either way. The main problem with the majority of businesses is APATHY RULES and what is needed here is to bang the drum loudly and consistently right under their noses because they sure as hell won't come looking.

Agreed - At risk of starting the argument all over again I should point out that slightly less than half the 77 who have voted are positively in favor. I also note that Franchising and the recently established SEO sections are by far the least active, apart from events. It is a fact that the more you segment the site the more you risk marginalizing specific groups. This topic should not really be about ECO which is a tactical decision, but about how you actually segment a site like UKBF to get the best interaction within the best structure which is strategic and vital for its future.

Chris Kaday

 

[RayB]

Look at the views for this thread in just a few days - massive.

I put it to you a lot of views will have come from guests finding the forum through searching Google for eco business related stuff, which is HEAVILY searched for (this thread is up the top) - we had at least one new member join up yesterday as a direct result of finding this thread - and this would increase with a dedicated section.

Why are a lot of people searching for eco business related stuff? - Because it it a massive and growing factor in business - simple as that.

IMO - how many people voted in the poll is a less relevant statistic - looking at recent Polls on UKBF the turn out is less than a General Election (by miles) - hardly the representative side of the argument (for or against)

 

[Chris Kaday]

Oh for goodness sake give the man his ECO forum and let's get on with life and he can get on with his business.

Chris Kaday

 

[Rusty]

Look at the views for this thread in just a few days - massive.

I believe that the views are not respective of the subject either, I have probably viewed this thread at least 60 or 70 times (estimated) and I bet the main protagonists have done the same. Whenever a thread is contentious you will get the curious enjoying the bun fight.

I put it to you a lot of views will have come from guests finding the forum through searching Google for eco business related stuff, which is HEAVILY searched for (this thread is up the top) - we had at least one new member join up yesterday as a direct result of finding this thread - and this would increase with a dedicated section.

No more so than if we just have Eco threads scattered throughout all the sections, after all this one is not in its own section and by your own admission it is bringing in interested parties.

Why are a lot of people searching for eco business related stuff? - Because it it a massive and growing factor in business - simple as that.

Exactly but these people are the converted, what really concerns me is that it is not reaching the people who don't care and thats why I am strongly against not keeping it in the mainstream forums where we can raise the profile and hopefully if we try hard enough create some more converts.

 

[multilingual]

People will (in time) become sick and tired of the green revolution.

It's a great and worthy cause and it should not be ignored, but people get bored with hearing how bad we are and how we must all do more and more and more.

There comes a point where we just switch off and look for something more uplifting - it's human nature.

It's called desensitisation, and it's the exact opposite of addiction. Our brians will go into self defense mode and try to escape from negative situations before we go into depression.

As I stated above, if you put the green issues into one specific area then I will not bother going there simply because I don't want to hear it any more.

On second thoughts, maybe I should have voted YES because it would then keep all the enviro issues out of the main forum and allow the rest of us to get on with real issues that are more relevant to running a business - ie, making money.

I know that I am maybe not in the majority with these views, but mark my words this bubble will burst.

JB

 

[andysv1k]

People will (in time) become sick and tired of the green revolution.

It's a great and worthy cause and it should not be ignored, but people get bored with hearing how bad we are and how we must all do more and more and more.

There comes a point where we just switch off and look for something more uplifting - it's human nature.

It's called desensitisation, and it's the exact opposite of addiction. Our brians will go into self defense mode and try to escape from negative situations before we go into depression.

As I stated above, if you put the green issues into one specific area then I will not bother going there simply because I don't want to hear it any more.

On second thoughts, maybe I should have voted YES because it would then keep all the enviro issues out of the main forum and allow the rest of us to get on with real issues that are more relevant to running a business - ie, making money.

I know that I am maybe not in the majority with these views, but mark my words this bubble will burst.

JB

I think you are entirely wrong, its not about people finding this interesting because its a fashion thing. Its about changing peoples habits, ie creating new habits, habits that will stay, not just hang around until people get bored. Sure the topic is hot at the moment, but thats cos its new, atleast as a main stream thing. The topic may settle down, but only when peoples new way of thinking becomes the norm.

Go back in history and theres probably countles examples that are similar...

People said computers wouldnt catch on, it was probably assumed by some then that this new fangled computer thing wouldnt last and everyone would go back to normal in a short while.

The internet....ditto

electricity....ditto

telephones/mobiles....ditto

foreign travel....ditto

these new digital camera thingies.....ditto

some things just come along and change everything for the better, therefore they stay. others come and go, but i doubt very much that this will, people are finally realising that we have to make changes to the way we live. (me included, im no angel when it comes to energy usage and green issues)

Andy.

 

[multilingual]

I don't really see the relationship between what you mentioned and this particular issue.

All the things that you mentioned are inventions that changed our lives forever, they enhanced our lives by making things easier.

What the enviro lobby is asking us to do is change the way we currently behave for the benefit of the planet - all very good, but every time we turn on our TV or read a magazine there is someone else preaching to us about this subject, and there is only so much people will take.

This is not making things easier, it requires effort. That effort has to have some sort of reward or it falls flat.

There are just as many starving kids in Africa as there ever was, but we don't see the images on TV anymore because people don't react in the same way as we all did back in 1984 when the Ethiopian famine was first highlighted.

Why? Because we did everything we could, spent millions, donated, saved millions of lives and yet 20 years later the world has not changed and everything is just as bad. People say 'we tried, but it didn't work, it is still the same, such is life, we did our best, etc'.

Its the same with Green issues. Yes, its all well and good to reduce our Carbon Footprint and switch off our TV at night in the belief that we are saving the world, but with China building two new coal fired power stations every week, there will come a point in a few years time that we will look at the facts are realise that we are not making the slightest difference.

At that point, compassion fatigue will set in and the enviro train will run out of steam.

OK, I am playing devil's advocate a little bit in this debate. It is a hot topic for now, some good will come out of it and our habits may well change for the better.

I just prefer to do my bit without someone telling me that I need to do more.

JB

 

[andysv1k]

I don't really see the relationship between what you mentioned and this particular issue.

All the things that you mentioned are inventions that changed our lives forever, they enhanced our lives by making things easier.

What the enviro lobby is asking us to do is change the way we currently behave for the benefit of the planet - all very good, but every time we turn on our TV or read a magazine there is someone else preaching to us about this subject, and there is only so much people will take.

This is not making things easier, it requires effort. That effort has to have some sort of reward or it falls flat.

There are just as many starving kids in Africa as there ever was, but we don't see the images on TV anymore because people don't react in the same way as we all did back in 1984 when the Ethiopian famine was first highlighted.

Why? Because we did everything we could, spent millions, donated, saved millions of lives and yet 20 years later the world has not changed and everything is just as bad. People say 'we tried, but it didn't work, it is still the same, such is life, we did our best, etc'.

Its the same with Green issues. Yes, its all well and good to reduce our Carbon Footprint and switch off our TV at night in the belief that we are saving the world, but with China building two new coal fired power stations every week, there will come a point in a few years time that we will look at the facts are realise that we are not making the slightest difference.

At that point, compassion fatigue will set in and the enviro train will run out of steam.

OK, I am playing devil's advocate a little bit in this debate. It is a hot topic for now, some good will come out of it and our habits may well change for the better.

I just prefer to do my bit without someone telling me that I need to do more.

JB

How has the Famine thing died, those 80's drives ended up triggering us to raise millions every year, this still continues now. each year we collective donate millions of pounds which make a huge difference. Your statement of people thinking we tried and failed is nonsense. It set a trend and changed our thinking, its maybe not as big now, but thats because raising money for these causes every year is now the NORM.

As for things having rewards, im with you on that, but the way i see is that most of the changes people are being asked to make DO have rewards!
I save atleast £100 a year by using rainwater to flush the toilets. I get free hot water all summer from my solar system and a pretty good ammount in winter.

I get reductions on my elec bill by using LED lighting and CFL's The same goes for turning things off when they are not needed.

I get gas reductions by using my woodburner to heat some of the house.

it wont be long before these incentives increase, i fully expect to see reductions in council tax or some similar scheme for people who are making the effort.

It does take effort to make some of these changes, thats why the bigger picture is about changing peoples ideas and philosophies, so that its no longer and effort, its just part of life.

People are now recycling on mass, this takes effort and theres no real reward for it at all, but people do it because its the right thing to do.

Do you recycle your rubbish?

If so, what do you get in return?

Andy.

 

[multilingual]

As for things having rewards, im with you on that, but the way i see is that most of the changes people are being asked to make DO have rewards!

I save at least £100 a year by using rainwater to flush the toilets. I get free hot water all summer from my solar system and a pretty good ammount in winter.

I get reductions on my elec bill by using LED lighting and CFL's The same goes for turning things off when they are not needed.

it wont be long before these incentives increase, i fully expect to see reductions in council tax or some similar scheme for people who are making the effort.

AHA!!

This is exactly why I voted NO!

The examples you state above really appeal to me and I would happily look at every one of them for the reason and benefits stated - saving money.

Once you cloud that issue with the 'environmental impact' then I switch off straight away.

Putting all of these points into an 'Eco Forum' would do more harm than good because many people would not go in it and thus miss out on the big picture.

Why not just have a 'Money Saving Forum' where such ideas can be discussed on a rational basis without anyone having to lecture us about saving the planet?

JB

 

[andysv1k]

If your one and only motive is to save money, then all the things i mentioned are not for you at all.

there are far quicker and more effective ways of making or saving money, so they wouldnt make sense unless you also wanted to do it to reduce your reliance on natural resources and fuels.

I dont really understand your point im sorry.

Perhaps i missed something.

I know that environmental debating is everywhere and you cant escape it, but i think thats for a good reason, its bringing change to people. and after all its only coming via the technologies that make your life easier!
just switch them off! then everyone wins!

Joking aside, i really dont get your point, no offence intended.

Andy.

 

[multilingual]

Joking aside, i really dont get your point, no offence intended.

Andy.

None taken.

All I am saying is put the financial benefits on show and don't harp on about the environmental impact so much and you may get a more receptive audience.

Solar power was once sold as a way to generate your own supply of electricity without having to rely on anyone else. It gives people control over their lives and saves money.

Now it is being sold on environmental grounds as a way of lowering greenhouse emissions and reducing the carbon footprint of your home.

I just prefer the original way of selling it as I could see the benefits without being lectured to. It's exactly the same product as it was 30 years ago, but now it has the fashionable 'eco' tag on it.

JB

 

[andysv1k]

I see what you are saying, but i think people are just moving with the times and if eco is the current thing, then why not sell a product and flag up its eco credentials!

This is probably a bit off topic though, shall we leave this for the new forum area?

Andy.

 

Just a quick one

we alredy have financial incentives in place.

If you don't put the right thing in your green bin 20 years in Dartmoor

If your car fails its emmision test no car

Punative taxation on 4X4 's and high emmision vehicles

Fly tipping huge fines

No smoking in public places Hanging

IT has to be a mixture of laws and financial incentives to work.

Oil will run out,so its pretty important that we find an alternative source of energy be it green red or black.

Putting your head in the sand is not an option as the US has discovered.

And saving the planet might just be a tad of a good idea,or where would you go for a walk on those sunny afternoons.

Do we need a green forum of course Not

do we want one seems Sift think they will make a couple of bob out of it ,so we probably will.

Earl

 

Just cannot get my head around what the basis of the argument is here.

Absolutely no argument from me matey. Most of my few posts have been to respond to replies which were focused on me not my argument. Get the section up and see how it goes if the moderators are in favor.

By the way have you read Ian Bank's the wasp factory?

Chris Kaday

If you have no argument about it, why keep chirping in with your negative comments?

As for the book, why would you recommend it? Tell me about it first, and then maybe I'll consider adding it to my reading list.

As for the comment by Rusty, bringing statistics into this again, this is a no go point being raised, since, when this entire forum started, it was no doubt the idea of just one or two individuals, but putting those ideas into practice and going with them, has grown the forum to what it is today with it's several thousand members. I'm sure it didn't start off straight away with large numbers of people, but grew over time.

Now, we have another negative mudslinger in the discussion, who by their own admission has no interest in the subject, yet continues to post on a subject that holds no interest for them, further, admits that s/he is playing devils advocate a little. So what is that about? Does this person too have a point or not, or are they only posting for the sake of argument?

I think all you guys that do not want this, are just playing around with words just for the sake of it, you don't have a point at all, for you it's about some intellectual upper hand, which is why combined, you are missing the reasoning behind this completely.



Bad for the forum my ass.