EC Sales

honada

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Jan 16, 2011
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I am totally confused, please help.

The Company's supplier is in India, and we sell to EU countries, from our warehouse. We have two warehouses one in the UK and one in Amsterdam.

Definitly any sale from UK to EU countries will be submitted as an EC Sale, the question is about sales from Amsterdam warehouse.

The supplier send goods directly to Amsterdam and we UK based company sell from the warehouse in Amsterdam to other EU countries (Would this be considered an EC Sale and should I include it on the monthly submission or NOT?)

I have tried to look for the information on the HMRC, business link and even phoned HMRC and still feel uncertain.

Thanks
 

David Griffiths

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  • Jun 21, 2008
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    The guidance in the HMRC website suggests that you should include all sales to EC customers, and makes no distinction as to where the goods are delivered from.

    There is a reference to transferring goods to a VAT registered subsidiary in a different EC jurisdiction, but I don't think that you are doing that. There's also a reference to a separate publication on triangulation which may be worth following up

    The forum's VAT experts don't usually post over the weekend, so I'd check in later in the week to see if they've found the post and can help
     
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    honada

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    Jan 16, 2011
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    Excellent thanks so much for your help, I have to submit the VAT return on Monday and I will change Box 8 to comply with the HMRC information included in your reply.

    I was including any sales to EU countries regardless of where the goods are and which warehouse it is being transferred from, so October and November month are correct but December the software consultant (upgraded to Sage 200) and my external accountant started a discussion which confused me totally.

    I am going to print the section related on the HMRC website and keep it for referrence.

    Really appreciate your help.
     
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    David Richards

    Definitly any sale from UK to EU countries will be submitted as an EC Sale, the question is about sales from Amsterdam warehouse.

    The supplier send goods directly to Amsterdam and we UK based company sell from the warehouse in Amsterdam to other EU countries
    I think that you may be required to register for VAT in the Netherlands.

    On the face of it, sales of goods from your Amsterdam warehouse don't seem to qualify for zero-rating as they have not been "sent or transported out of the UK to a destination in another EC Member State" - being as the goods have never entered the UK.

    Imagine if the goods had come via your warehouse in the UK and you dispatched them to your warehouse in Amsterdam. I think you would treat that as a zero-rated 'dispatch from the UK' if you were also registered for VAT in the Netherlands and accounted for the acquisition tax in the Netherlands. In that case, onward supplies from the Amsterdam warehouse would be zero-rated if they met the rules of the Dutch VAT authorities.

    See VAT Notice 725; in particular section 4.3, section 9 and section 15.3.

    If you take the UK out of the loop altogether, it seems logical that supplies from your Amsterdam warehouse are outside the scope of UK VAT but within the scope of Dutch VAT. How do you currently deal with VAT charged by the Dutch VAT authorities on goods imported directly from India to your Amsterdam warehouse?
     
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    David Griffiths

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  • Jun 21, 2008
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    I think that you may be required to register for VAT in the Netherlands.

    But surely that depends on supplies made IN the Netherlands, rather than FROM the Netherlands

    On the face of it, sales of goods from your Amsterdam warehouse don't seem to qualify for zero-rating as they have not been "sent or transported out of the UK to a destination in another EC Member State" - being as the goods have never entered the UK.

    On that basis they are surely outside the scope of UK VAT altogether and not zero rated. Certainly not a standard rated supply


    If you take the UK out of the loop altogether, it seems logical that supplies from your Amsterdam warehouse are outside the scope of UK VAT but within the scope of Dutch VAT.

    Why are they in the scope of Netherlands VAT?

    This is a complex situation, and as I've said above it's best to get an answer from one of our VAT experts. I'll give an opinion on a forum, with the caveat made, but I wouldn't give formal paid advice without consulting an expert
     
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    honada

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    Jan 16, 2011
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    True it is a valid point UK is outside the loop as the goods are dispatched from India to Amsterdam warehouse.

    We are only registered VAT in the UK, the warehouse in Amsterdam is not owned by us we pay storage, transport charges and duty.

    We invoice our customers in the EU countries zero rated and ask the forwarder in Amsterdam to send the goods.

    So this sale should not be included on the EC Sales list?
     
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    David Richards

    I think that you may be required to register for VAT in the Netherlands.
    But surely that depends on supplies made IN the Netherlands, rather than FROM the Netherlands.
    Why so?


    On the face of it, sales of goods from your Amsterdam warehouse don't seem to qualify for zero-rating as they have not been "sent or transported out of the UK to a destination in another EC Member State" - being as the goods have never entered the UK.

    On that basis they are surely outside the scope of UK VAT altogether and not zero rated. Certainly not a standard rated supply
    I wasn't suggesting they were a standard rated UK supply, because I went on to say; "If you take the UK out of the loop altogether, it seems logical that supplies from your Amsterdam warehouse are outside the scope of UK VAT but within the scope of Dutch VAT".


    Why are they in the scope of Netherlands VAT?
    Well, let's assume that the goods from India were imported into the UK. The OP would pay VAT on the imported goods and being VAT-registered in the UK they could recover that VAT. Then the goods are dispatched from the UK to the Amsterdam warehouse. This seems to fit the description of 'consignment stocks' as detailed in section 15.3 of VAT Notice 725. Following the process in section 9 of VAT Notice 725, this dispatch could only be zero-rated if the OP was registered for VAT in the Netherlands. The OP would need to be VAT-registered in the Netherlands in order to account for the acquisition tax. They would also need to record dispatches from the Netherlands on the Dutch equivalent of an ECSL.

    Now let's take the UK out of the loop. The OP wouldn't be charged import VAT on the goods by HMRC, as the goods never enter the UK. But he would be charged import VAT by the Dutch VAT authorities. The OP would need to be VAT-registered in the Netherlands in order to recover that VAT. They would also need to record dispatches from the Netherlands on the Dutch equivalent of an ECSL.

    So it seems perfectly logical that the OP would have to register for VAT in the Netherlands.
     
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    Kevin Hall

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    Sep 10, 2008
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    This is complex. It seems logical to deduce that all the customers in other EC countries are EC VAT registered (hence the EC Sales Lists for goods transported from the UK); and that the Dutch warehouse is not a Customs/Freezone Warehouse (hence the charge for Duty).

    On this assumption, I would expect the VAT Place of Supply to be Holland for all sales of goods transported from Holland to customers registered for VAT in other EC countries.

    Ordinarily, one would then expect the vendor to register for Dutch VAT, to reclaim the Dutch Import VAT and to zero-rate their sales to the customers registered for VAT in other EC countries.

    But there are an almost bewildering number of possibilities here.

    The transport agent could also act as the import agent, maybe also as Dutch Fiscal Representative in selling on the goods fom Holland. The Dutch agent should be recording the Dispatch on its own EC Sales List. But if this is what is happening, this would be a poor choice for the vendor, as Dutch Import VAT cannot be reclaimed by the vendor (it might be paid and recharged by the transporter to the vendor).

    Alternatively, the transporter/import agent might exercise an "Onward Supply Relief". This is a mechanism whereby the importer is not required to pay Import VAT if a VAT registered customer is already identified in another country and the goods are transported to them promptly. Again, the Dutch agent should record the Dispatch on its own EC Sales List. But overall this is a better solution, provided the vendor is not required to register for Dutch VAT, as they do not miss out on reclaimed Dutch Import VAT. But is this really what is happening? Is the transport agent really acting as import agent and recording the onward sale as a Dutch Dispatch on behalf of the vendor?

    It is even possible that the Dutch VAT authorities might simply waive the need for the vendor to register for VAT, since all its sales will be zero-rated. But even if thi is permitted, if the sales invoices are issued by the vendor showing a UK VAT registration number, but the goods are imported into Holland via a Dutch VAT registration number, I can only assume that a "deemed" Acquisition from Holland takes place in the UK; plus an onward sale to the other EC country; which would presumably qualify as a deemed triangulation. There is some legal support for this, but it is far from clear.

    The simplest solution, to make sure this all works correctly, is for the vendor to register for Dutch VAT and to record the Dutch Dispatch on their own Dutch EC Sales List, making the sales under their own Dutch VAT registration number; and making the Dutch Import under their own Dutch VAT registration number (and either reclaiming the Dutch Import VAT on their own Dutch VAT return, or using the "Onward Supply Relief" if they qualify). The question would then become: is it worth the cost of registering and maintaining a Dutch VAT registration, if another option is possible (e.g. one of the above)? In which case, it seems that professional advice would be best in this instance, as the complexities reach even beyond what the VAT laws envisaged.

    Hope it helps?
     
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    honada

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    Jan 16, 2011
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    This whole issue seems complicated, I have been in contact with the VAT help line before I submitted the quarterly return this morning.

    They have suggested that the scenario indicate that it is outside the scope of UK vat, and they suggest to register under the Dutch VAT.

    For the past 12 months I have been including such sales as EC Sales, now if I will not include them on my EC Sales so what VAT code am I giving?

    I think I have to get more information from our import agent and if they are acting as fiscal representatives.

    I must admit it is confusing.

    thanks for your help.
     
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    David Richards

    They have suggested that the scenario indicate that it is outside the scope of UK vat, and they suggest to register under the Dutch VAT.

    For the past 12 months I have been including such sales as EC Sales, now if I will not include them on my EC Sales so what VAT code am I giving?
    If it is the case (as I suspected) that you need to be VAT-registered in the Netherlands, then all sales from your Amsterdam warehouse would be recorded on your Dutch VAT return, your Dutch ECSL (and, if appropriate, your Dutch Intrastat return). Those sales would simply not be included on your UK VAT return.
     
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    David Griffiths

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  • Jun 21, 2008
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    Why so?
    .

    Taking up solely the point about the need to register in the Netherlands.

    Read this link
    about making supplies into other countries from the UK - yu don't need to register unless your supplies IN the UK exceed the threshold. Of course the rules in the Netherlands may be different but it is an EC tax

    Saying that it's logical is a very risky approach to giving advice on any tax, VAT more than most.

    If Kevin thinks that the situation is complex, that's good enough for me and I wouldn't dream of trying to interpret it.

    From the fact that the OP has three warehouses and needs to use Sage 200, it's reasonable to presume that it's a substantial business, and able to afford to get advice from a specialist (like Keven, 3pic or Spidersong)
     
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    David Richards

    Saying that it's logical is a very risky approach to giving advice on any tax, VAT more than most.

    If Kevin thinks that the situation is complex, that's good enough for me and I wouldn't dream of trying to interpret it.
    I am merely trying to be helpful to the OP. If the situation isn't crystal clear, I try to explain why I think a certain set of criteria apply - giving my reasons and sources. This enables the OP to explore the solution themselves; the information given might strike a chord with something they already know - or at least it gives them some detail and an avenue to explore when discussing it with their own accountant or a VAT professional.

    Both Kevin and I have indicated that it is a complex area and both Kevin and I have stated that logic seems to dictate that the OP should be VAT registered in the Netherlands.

    So I must admit that I am a bit puzzled as to why you seem to have singled out my contributions for query...
     
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    Kevin Hall

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    if I will not include them on my EC Sales so what VAT code am I giving?

    Which set of "codes" are you referring to? Do you mean in Sage 200?

    As you go on to say, you will need to establish what is actually happening first. But assuming you do end up registering for Dutch VAT, perhaps there is an "Outside the Scope" Sage Code? For example, I believe you can programme the Sage Codes: under "EC Terms" you can state "Not Applicable" (so it does not appear on UK EC Sales Lists, UK Intrastats, etc) and I believe you call also programme the code to exclude the transaction from the VAT Return report too.

    Does it help?
     
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    honada

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    Jan 16, 2011
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    Many thanks to all and thanks Kevin, apologies has not been able to reply earlier, caught up working late hours. I have been in touch with HMRC help line, and the warehouse in Holland, also getting some help from our custom warehouse in the UK.

    Conclusion as been advised is the warehouse in Holland is a custom warehouse and would declare goods when they leave, as long as the clearance documents are not produced in the UK therefore the sale is outside the scope of UK VAT, and coded under such classification (zero rated in value)

    Your posts has been extremely helpful !
     
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    Kevin Hall

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    This is complex. It seems logical to deduce that ... the Dutch warehouse is not a Customs/Freezone Warehouse (hence the charge for Duty).

    So my initial assumption was incorrect!!

    Nevertheless, it seems that you pay the import costs in the end, so you are merely importing the goods at a later date; and my remaining comments still follow.

    On a non-VAT note, and purely as a matter of interest, why use a (more expensive) Customs Warehouse, rather than importing immediately and using a (less expensive) ordinary warehouse? One would usually expect the additional cost of storage in a Customs Warehouse to exceed any benefit from cashflow advantage in paying Import Duty later, for example.

    Do you often return goods to the supplier unsold perhaps? Or is it worth you looking into using a cheaper warehousing option?

    Just some ideas ...
     
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    honada

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    Kevin it is a fair comment, but I have joined the company last year and I think they have been using this warehouse for a long time during which they have built goodwill and trust.

    My boss believe in outsourcing, and customers are happy to deal with the warehouse. I guess it is an easy option.
     
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