Duty of Care...conditions.

[AnEmployee22]

I'm an employee, so I'll declare my interests right now.

Obviously, Health and Safety- be it a safe as can be work environment, plus the risks posed by heavy lifting for example, or risks of RSI to a lesser extent. That's obvious in terms of obligations for an employer so no questions there.

More importantly however...reasonable adjustments. I remember hearing about this through others at another business- to cut a long story short, somebody left owing to anxiety- now this is where it gets interesting. To my mind, if it was disclosed before hand then letting people opposite them sit whispering, gossiping and generally snickering- well it's terrible form in an open plan office but can absorb or tune out...but if it was only disclosed when they went on the sick and eventually left to the employer- then the employer could not know, how could they??

However, I guess the thrust of my question is, should the manager have spotted red flags about gossip, whispering, snickering and especially opposite someone who is presumed an introvert- because he fit the description of that. My personal interest is snickering and whispering and all that nonsense in an open plan anyway, but I can robustly handle it...but I feel very bad for the individual who left. I am NOT saying they left owing to this, but my argument is that it would be scarcely helpful and would surely have made the individual feel ill at ease.

Just interested to know what people think- morally it's disappointing of course, but wondering legally and that?

 

[obscure]

There are simply too many hypotheticals here for a meaningful answer.

How could the manager spot any "red flags" unless the gossiping happened in front of them (or someone reported it)?
Were these people actually gossiping about this person or did they just think that was the case?

 

[AnEmployee22]

There are simply too many hypotheticals here for a meaningful answer.

How could the manager spot any "red flags" unless the gossiping happened in front of them (or someone reported it)?
Were these people actually gossiping about this person or did they just think that was the case?

This is an interesting response- thanks.

I don't really know how much I can or should post about it on a public forum- you're right of course, the variables play a big part here.

1. It's not that big an office in terms of width and length etc so in theory the manager (though said manager is very busy) might have spotted it. Given said manager seems to have a trusted individual sitting right in the middle of this shebang, they definitely in theory should have spotted it. If the manager/department head has a reasonable awareness, they should implement a minimal whispering policy IMO. Draconian perhaps, but people have different issues/vulnerabilities- perhaps hidden ones, don't they?
2. Impossible to say. I just think the whispering in a fairly noisy open plan is quite corrosive myself, draws attention etc. Now multiply that for someone with anxiety issues and you can imagine how it might have made them feel, when they are directly opposite it...

I would also add, the anxiety thing- if it was flagged before the joining, some sort of reduced whispering policy should have been implemented IMO as a reasonable adjustment. If however there was no such indication before the individual joined- then what can you do? None of us are psychic.

What is interesting though, is that both of those individuals in the wake of this debacle, have been split up and moved to different offices- by which I mean not together in a new office, but actually two different offices on different floors! Now it's probably coincidental for business reasons, but you can't be sure...

On duty of care, I've a long list of issues let's say with my company, but I guess that's the corporate world eh??

 

[AnEmployee22]

Unless the law has changed since this ACAS piece, this is Duty of Care and I will bold the ones I feel my current company is, or has been in breach of:

Requirements under an employer's duty of care are wide-ranging and may manifest themselves in many different ways, such as:

• Clearly defining jobs and undertaking risk assessments
• Ensuring a safe work environment
• Providing adequate training and feedback on performance
• Ensuring that staff do not work excessive hours
• Providing areas for rest and relaxation
• Protecting staff from bullying or harassment, either from colleagues or third parties
• Protecting staff from discrimination
• Providing communication channels for employees to raise concerns
• Consulting employees on issues which concern them.

Minimum the ones in bold. Also- the following grey areas:
1) Rest and relaxation areas?
Harder to define- technically you can sit in the office at lunch or break so that's R & R isn't it.
2) Risk assessments and clear definitions?
Apart from moving furniture and carrying it down stairs, or RSI almost no risk in an office, is there? Clear definitions? Perhaps, but the work can certainly change in some cases!

As for one of them I bolded- Raising concerns? Lol I have a few but I reckon I'd just get the sack...

 

[Newchodge]

You cannot get a legal opinion on a lengthy piece of prose that has very little coherence.

Try and break it down into a simple question, such as, is there a breach of duty of care if a manager heard someone say ...

 

[Mr D]

Unless the law has changed since this ACAS piece, this is Duty of Care and I will bold the ones I feel my current company is, or has been in breach of:



Minimum the ones in bold. Also- the following grey areas:
1) Rest and relaxation areas?
Harder to define- technically you can sit in the office at lunch or break so that's R & R isn't it.
2) Risk assessments and clear definitions?
Apart from moving furniture and carrying it down stairs, or RSI almost no risk in an office, is there? Clear definitions? Perhaps, but the work can certainly change in some cases!

As for one of them I bolded- Raising concerns? Lol I have a few but I reckon I'd just get the sack...

Risk in an office?
Furniture itself, carpet, leads? Electronics / computers & drinks?
Anything on the floor? Ability to move around?
Have seen accidents many times in offices. In some ways they can be more dangerous than a warehouse floor.

 

[obscure]

1. Impossible to say. I just think the whispering in a fairly noisy open plan is quite corrosive myself, draws attention etc.

Sorry but I can't comprehend how you think that talking quietly in a noisy environment is corrosive.

Nor do I see how an employer can be expected to show a duty of care in relation to an issue that is unusual/extreme/unknown - we aren't talking about missing fire extinguishers or an unsafe stairway here. You said yourself that you don't know if they were talking about the person who left - or even that that is the reason why the person left. So how would banning talking quietly have helped? Especially as the individual didn't make their issue known until after they left.

Should the company also ban talking loudly because someone might be upset by that. What about lemon yellow shirts? I am sure there is someone out there somewhere with a phobia of lemon yellow shirts.

Yes an employer has a duty to ensure the work place is safe but they can't be expected to implement protections for every possible extreme case when no employee has said that they have such a problem. Ultimately an employee with a particular problem must take some responsibility and make management aware.

 

[AnEmployee22]

Hi there, thanks for the responses.

@Newchodge Lengthy prose, yes. Little coherence? I don't entirely agree- set it out reasonably well. Complex situation with variables, so I had to write a fair amount, in order to offer a bit of context. Anyway, to put it simply with a question, something like..."Should an employer implement a no whispering policy to allow for possible conditions such as anxiety?" The post went on a bit, certainly would concede that!

@Mr D Yeah possibly. Can't say I've ever seen any in my offices, accidents that is- but RSI is a modern risk I guess.

@obscure I'd say about that situation, it was unfortunate and there are quite a few variables, ifs and buts tbh. Whispering? Depends what you read, lots of things I read suggest it's a bad thing- matter of opinion I guess in some ways. I'd say personally it can be a negative...

One bit I will fully agree on is that, if the employer does not know of the issue, the employer can do nothing about it. If they are problems they do have to inform employers and it should be an onus on them to do so.

 

[AnEmployee22]

Anyway I can actually follow up this post and say- I think I'm possibly being forced out of my job. Constructive dismissal possibly isn't it, if it is indeed the case?

 

[obscure]

.....Constructive dismissal possibly isn't it, if it is indeed the case?

That depends entirely on what your employer has done/not done to you that would amount to constructive dismissal. Given that you have told us nothing about your situation it is impossible for us to judge.

 

[The Byre]

You cannot get a legal opinion on a lengthy piece of prose that has very little coherence.

Try and break it down into a simple question, such as, is there a breach of duty of care if a manager heard someone say ...

This.

Your post is a rambling flow of consciousness.

If you are in difficulties, we would very much like to help you, but you have to outline the problem in such a way that we can understand what exactly is going on.

 

[Newchodge]

Possibly. Constructive dismissal is the hardest case to win at tribunal. Far harder than discrimination cases which are really difficult to win.

 

[AnEmployee22]

I don't fully agree. The situation was complex with a lot of variables, so I thought a lengthy post could offer bit of context to begin with.

Maybe there was too much info to begin with though. Noted.

 

[obscure]

I don't fully agree. The situation was complex with a lot of variables, so I thought a lengthy post could offer bit of context to begin with.

You started the thread talking about someone else.... which went on for 8 posts.

Now suddenly in post 9 you are having a problem but have told us nothing at all about what that might actually be. Enough context already. Tell us exactly what your problem is and we may be able to offer some meaningful advise.

 

[AnEmployee22]

Thank you.

I am a hard worker. I take a professional approach and I am decent at what I do. As evidenced by my other (part time) role, in which I have been earmarked for step up potential just last night.

What genuinely gets to me, is unwarranted micromanagement. Today as I worked on my spreadsheet, my boss was logged in on it all day until lunch... Half 8 until 1pm! Boss watched it yesterday too, even though he in another office... As with today.

I have reason to believe that someone in there may want me out. Given I have protected characteristics, have just completed 2 years and this company are ignorant to say the least about employment rights and law, it's possible that given those factors the company may be wary of sacking me outright and suddenly for what they may view as poor performance.

Another red flag is sudden change in work... Seems to have changed from industry research in many cases to lists of sales type companies.

It is possible that they are trying to force me to resign...but my main worry is the micromanaging...if I get RSI it will be partly their fault.

 

[The Byre]

I really can't comment on a situation I know nothing about, but reading between the lines, it would seem that a lot of neurotic people are cooped up in an office and are finding that the others are difficult to get along with.

If you want to know why your boss was looking at your work for several hours (doesn't he have something else to do with his time???) why don't you just ask him?

The same with the work - "My work seems to have changed from industry research in many cases to lists of sales type companies. What's happened?"

Here at Byre Towers, we get together socially when possible - nothing formal, just coffee and/or beers and occasionally grub - and we end up chatting and laughing about customers and other animals and otherwise leave one another alone. A pretty happy-go-lucky bunch, if rather eccentric and with rather bonkers hobbies. But a bit of friendly socialising and banter goes a long way!

 

[paulears]

There are two possibilities.
1. The first is that the atmosphere was genuinely corrosive, and the staff took a deliberate line to intimidate and make life hell.
2. The worker is paranoid, and imagined it.

I guess we can't tell - but whispering, to use one element can be perfectly sensible in an open plan office, where privacy (for both personal and business reasons) is difficult to control. Perhaps members of staff need to communicate without what they are saying being heard. In small closed offices it's easy, but impossible in open plan areas. This kind of whispering excludes people, who may react badly to not being included, but perhaps they were required to be excluded legitimately? Whispering in stage whispers where others can just about hear, or are aware of can be destructive when done to deliberately exclude one person - and can be intimidating.

My Own view is that speaking quietly and privately sometimes needs to be done, and if two people are seen to be communicating covertly, it can create problems in a team.

Duty of Care is another thing altogether. The employer needs to prevent physical and psychological harm being inflicted on the staff. Can a Manager interrogate other staff over what they are whispering about? Can the Manager covertly listen in to ensure that whispering is not unnecessary or decisive?

Frankly - it sounds like an unhappy environment, and if somebody is a bit fragile, then it's easy to say somebody should have stopped whispering, but we're into personal territory. Whispering is not something in a handbook, and can be perfectly acceptable depending on context. Exclusion from general conversation, often non-work related is quite normal. Not everyone we work with we like, so why should they be invited into conversations? We can choose to be chatty, or we can be introvert and keep ourselves to ourselves. I'm not sure that this amounts to lack of care? We're social animals and there's always a hierarchy. If you are considering it to be bullying - as in intimidating you, then there could be a case - but the absence of conversation you are invited to join doesn't sound like something a boss can do much about.

Reading between the lines - you seem to think there is a problem, but can't quite explain it properly. Tittle tattle, gossip, rumour and strange looks are very difficult to quantify.

 

[AnEmployee22]

Thanks for the replies. Will address them now.

@The Byre

Well yeah, asking the boss is one possible solution...the boss is quite probably a director though (we have a very choppy managerial structure) so it may not be appreciated, I don't really know! Do directors like being challenged and asked to justify a position in a scenario such as the spreadsheet one? Probably not...It's a bit of a red flag anyway, will just have to work harder and keep an eye on it I guess. If it becomes a persistent occurrence however, I should probably ask what it's all about at some point.

About the spreadsheet thing I mean. I can always have a conversation with him about whether my role is changing long term or if this is just an element of it, a phase- don't have a problem with that.

Are people there neurotic?...dunno, would have to think about that a bit more I guess. Personally I just don't think much of whispering and snickering in an open plan office, maybe I'm over-sensitive!

@paulears

I dunno about paranoid...the worker suffered anxiety, don't know the full extent of the workers condition though, so perhaps I should not try to second guess this really.

For what it's worth, whether intentionally (probably wasn't) or otherwise, I don't think the whispering would have helped him. It definitely was not about business in all honesty, when these two (especially one of them) spoke about work, they spoke in normal voices to be fair. Absolutely they did, incredibly rare that would talk about projects in hushed tones.

Personal matters? Maybe...just guess I a used to most people in my office being loudmouths so perhaps expected similar of them (believe them they are, Foghorn Leghorn would be proud- can hear a variety of them halfway across the room ). Stage whispers is a good term for it I think, again about personal matters fair play but it can perhaps put others in the vicinity i.e. directly opposite them ill at ease maybe? Yeah, whispering does sometimes need to be done, but I object to it when it occurs persistently- just my view though.

Duty of Care. What they were whispering about could have been totally legit...could have been but when it has been happening persistently, over 2-3 months, one starts to wonder. I'm not that fragile, ha I steward at football in my 2nd job, but the guy next to me with anxiety surely could have been! My suspicion somehow, based on a variety of sites on whispering in workplace, based on one or two other unrelated things is it could have been about me, some of it- I don't know as I couldn't quite hear obviously...I'm not bothered about joining convo, but I would clearly have objected if it was about me...

You got that right. Gossip, tittle tattle, rumour and strange looks are very hard to quantify. One thing that was telling however was that after the individual with anxiety left, these two were split- and not only split but moved to separate offices! Officially there were some work reasons, but off the record, one of the whisperer claimed they were deemed to be a distraction...Anyway even if it wasn't about me, it irritated me badly and caused a bit of paranoia...when I saw her and we had a little chat- 'banter'- it'd be classed as in my dept, most things are, I said a thing or 2 which made me feel better.

 

[AnEmployee22]

I should add about my company.

There's a very high turnover of staff, and even a fairly high turnover on the non sales side.

 

[paulears]

Work nowadays in a pressure filled environment - targets for every job, it seems, monitoring and performance reviews and plans at every corner, yet we're trying to be mental health friendly at the same time? I'm a supporter of the campaign to bring mental health into the open - but at the same time, work is no longer nice and pleasant, and pressure for some spurs them on, while for others, like your anxious colleague, a killer. The fact that whispering is seen as threatening somehow makes me more sure that some jobs and some employers are just not the right place for some people.

Look at the idiots on the apprentice - hardened killers, loud mouths and quite unpleasant sometimes - having one of those in an office working closely with others would soon give rise to bullying complaints - yet these types of people DO end up with the higher paid jobs, with others struggling on minimum wage.

There WILL be heat in the kitchen, there WILL be under the counter activities by the staff with one aim and the bosses with another. Legislation makes us think we have the right to sun, laughter, company days out, wonderful attitudes to sickness, or having time off, and that a happy office is a right - a basic human need, which MUST happen.

In truth there will always be bullies, and cows, and nasty people. Most bosses turn blind eyes to the most productive worker being an arse, and making life difficult for the weaker, solid, but less productive ones. On paper, and out loud, management make the appropriate comments, but in reality they know which person they least want to lose - and totter along a slippery path keeping the peace and remaining legal.

However - when presented with whisperers, my tactic has always been to go in close and join in - which usually stops the whispering dead. I make a loud comment about "has somebody left a window open? that wind noise has started again". I'll even make a real effort to wig in because I'm nosey. I don't assume they're whispering about me, and to be honest, if they were and it was hurtful, I let it ride over me.

In one of my past Job roles, I had to listen in to conversations covertly. From time to time I would hear horrible things about me - then ten minutes later I'd see them and they'd be all friendly and pleasant, with me knowing that a few minutes before, they revealed they hated my guts. I had to smile and pretend I didn't know. That's part of that particular job - and it sucked, but I never let it hurt me. Does the person doing that job now go for counselling or put in a formal complaint about these people? No - it's what humans do.

You cannot let yourself get upset by what people might be saying. Life is too short!

 

[AnEmployee22]

That's a great post. Have a recommend or a like or similar. The only bit I would disagree with is that if they are whispering about me, I WILL make something of it, whether through official channels or otherwise.

As you say, that sort of thing can be a killer for someone with anxiety in the workplace...people should be a bit more mindful but when said whisperer has some mildly narcissistic traits, it's like herding cats. Then again in the pub she's fairly normal. Possibly she is overcompensating at work for some reason, an act to some extent.

However, what you say about people like those on the Apprentice is so true. My favoured example of this is the 'Narcissist-in-chief' as I like to call her. She is really rather attractive, she says the right things to the right people... Chairs departmental meetings, seems to get info like important info, sits in on interviews for her dept despite being there 6 months and having junior in her title.

My favourite example of this was a recent departmental meeting...a date was mentioned for a work related thing, deadlines and that....and ha she brought the convo round to the fact it was near her birthday... Which was mentioned on a subsequent 2 occasions in the ensuing meeting chat.

She's clearly the 'Golden Girl' but it illustrates your point perfectly IMO about certain types of people doing very well on questionable grounds. I don't consider her to be naïve either, or lucking out.

 

[AnEmployee22]

Gonna make a new thread on pay.