Doing biz with a Nigerian client - what are the risks

[LicensedToTrade]

Wow! the trolls on this forum have been busy all night.

Not sure why the trolls think we are 'ripping' someone off. Its perfectly lawful to offshore a contract. Its called sub contracting - and in business it happens all the time.

I think calling us trolls is a little much, it was just an opinion. Yes subbing jobs out is pefectly legal, as is putting on a 3000% mark-up on a product...but it isn't necessarily ethical.

Ethics aside for the time being (you can charge what you like) is it really sensible to advertise the fact that this is the kind of service your potential customers can expect, I think you have to concede that is isn't.

No ill-will is intended, I'm just a little bemused.

 

[lesliedocherty]

9 pages, wow

 

[captaincloser]

This woman is dynamite. Can someone sign her up for Panorama ? Her description of hubbies project management credentials are priceless.

It was my post on page 7 of this thread that questioned the OP's honesty and I stand by it. This woman needs to be allowed to advertise her name and business address on here as a purveyor of Gold standard Rocking Horse dung. A new meaning for project management is born.

You can call me a troll Madam, it means little, but most reading this thread will see you and hubby as the charlatans that you are.

...Project management indeed ...my ar** as Ricky Tomlinson would say.

You are one side of a two bladed scam and your banks advice is sweet, but the outcome will remain the same. If it's not this crew that bring you down ..your level of greed will find it's own harbour fairly soon.

I loved the post about Hyacinth Bucket. Indeed... 'My husband...blah blah blah...project management..blah blah.. 12k... Nigerians.. Africa I think ? Blah,,blah blah,,Very nicde young lady with a small apartment and a Blackberry...Yes it will cost us only 400...some other little country will do the work...yes...the bank says its lovely there.... No, No...we are not in that business... My Husband is a PROJECT MANAGER don't you know ....so it's all ok ? I knew I could rely on the bank for sound advice...thank you....We shall buy some more shares in the morning !

 

[oldeagleeye]

I for one am not a Troll as you put it madam but you have a unique combination of being naive and an aboslute fool if you think that you can get away with taking these peoples money. Make no mistake. They will find some way of getting it back and then it is laundered.

I might add madam that these people only target greedy fools at that. Need I say more on that subject and I really do suggest that you aplogise for the troll remark.

All members were doing - including myself were trying to do was warn you of the dangers that you and your family face in risking dealing with these people and if your prepared to jeopodise your families future by ignoring that advice for the price of a 2nd hand escort then I feel sorry for you - and even more so for any children that you might have.

 

[papverpoppies]

I think calling us trolls is a little much, it was just an opinion. Yes subbing jobs out is pefectly legal, as is putting on a 3000% mark-up on a product...but it isn't necessarily ethical.

Ethics aside for the time being (you can charge what you like) is it really sensible to advertise the fact that this is the kind of service your potential customers can expect, I think you have to concede that is isn't.

No ill-will is intended, I'm just a little bemused.

Well this is one instance where I would say being called a troll - is not that bad!

Rather that, than an unethical greedy business person, about to get ripped off, from (if we are correct) some people you should not mess about with!

In real terms OP you are loosing nothing, as you are vastly thinking of overcharging for the job anyway...so why take the risk?

Keep your pride, your bank details and whatever else you have, and simply leave well alone.
What you never have, you never miss - but that will not the case if you go down the road of trying to out fox these people.

Poppy xx

 

[Officebird]

Wow! I outsource to Associate VAs when I'm busy and thanks to this thread I now know I'm paying them way too much lol.

Thanks for keeping me entertained whilst I ate my sarnie

 

[Sparklez35]

as you are vastly thinking of overcharging for the job anyway...

Why do you think we are overcharging for the job?

Do you know a British based IT firm that will do it for less using British employed labour?

Anyone with an ounce of savvy in the IT biz will tell you that software development in the UK using British labour is all but reduced to nothing. Its because its lost to competition in Asia. The only exception is the blue-chip and government contracts market accepting tenderbids £120,000 for a microsite because its policially-correct to use British labour. We diversified. We moved our developement operation to Chennai and we are still going strong while our competition went out of biz years ago.

There is nothing "unethical" about it, its sound (and legal) business practice. This is nothing to do with trying to "out-fox" anybody, we follow our bank's advice and will only accept a BACS transfer.

We came to this forum to see if others could share their experience on trading with a client in Nigeria. The advice is generally good. I didnt expect the thread to be turned into a flame war by saying we are 'ripping' somebody off. It says alot about their business acumen of those who spent the night on this forum clearly nothing better to do.

I therefore make no apologies for the trolls comment or for your hurt feelings. Get over it.

 

[Faevilangel]

There is outsourcing and there is ripping someone off. Charging a client £12000 for a £400 job is excessive. I would want to know if my job that I supplied to a UK company was being done by a chinese guy in Chennai.

If I wanted a chinese guy I would go straight to them, but the client came to you to do it. If you cannot do the job, why do you bid for it? It just seems you're using your clients as cash cows and not doing the job you're being paid for.

 

[papverpoppies]

I think this explains beautifully what the OP is about.


Poppy xx

 

[Sparklez35]

was being done by a chinese guy in Chennai.

If I wanted a chinese guy I would go straight .

That goes to show you really know what you're talking about. Really useful.

why do you bid for it? It just seems you're using your clients as cash cows and not doing the job you're being paid for.

Who said we bid for it?

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Please stop the flaming ladies and gents.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

Why do you think we are overcharging for the job?

Do you know a British based IT firm that will do it for less using British employed labour?

Well no, but that is the point...it is British Labour. If someone is employing a UK based programmer they know it won't be the cheapest, but they expect it to be of a high standard. If they wanted bargain basement they would go straight to India and cut-out the middle man.

How disappointed would you be if you bought beef described as 100% Organic British Beef for £12 and then found out it was imported Indian Beef that cost them 40 pence? I would say fairly disappointed.

 

[Sparklez35]

There is outsourcing and there is ripping someone off. Charging a client £12000 for a £400 job is excessive.

Is it?

The client is free to go elsewhere if they want.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

Please stop the flaming ladies and gents.

I can't speak for everyone but I don't think I am 'flaming'. As far as I am concerned, ethics is an extremely important factor in business and therefore warrants discussion. This isn't off topic either, the thread asked about scamming and I think this is relevant.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Is it?

The client is free to go elsewhere if they want.

Sparklez, stop for a moment and read YOUR OWN post!

WHY are these streetwise clients not going elsewhere? WHY?

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I can't speak for everyone but I don't think I am 'flaming'. As far as I am concerned, ethics is an extremely important factor in business and therefore warrants discussion. This isn't off topic either, the thread asked about scamming and I think this is relevant.

Those posting within the rules have nothing to be concerned about.

 

[Sparklez35]

but they expect it to be of a high standard. If they wanted bargain basement they would go straight to India and cut-out the middle man.

They can if they want to.

How disappointed would you be if you bought beef described as 100% Organic British Beef for £12 and then found out it was imported Indian Beef that cost them 40 pence? I would say fairly disappointed.

The contract does not specify the work has to be done in the UK.

The standard of programming is higher than it is in the UK. This is down to draconian terms in the 2002 Employment Act which makes it hard and expensive to ditch useless coders. In Chennai we can select top coders quickly and cheaply and are always very grateful to be given the work.

 

[papverpoppies]

I can't speak for everyone but I don't think I am 'flaming'. As far as I am concerned, ethics is an extremely important factor in business and therefore warrants discussion. This isn't off topic either, the thread asked about scamming and I think this is relevant.

I feel the same.

The OP came on here asking should her company do business with the Nigerians.

Then when the answers started to stack up as a no no,

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Ethics are everything and not just in business..

I am disguted that someone can post on a open forum that a job costing £400.00 can be charged at £10.000+, if they may be about to get scammed themsleves.

In this instance is the so called flaming a worse crime than bad company ethics..

Poppy xx

I am sorry if I have stepped over the forum line - but this is surely bad business practice.

 

[Naughty Vend]

I think this explains beautifully what the OP is about.


Poppy xx

Exact-a-mundo Poppy . . .

To the OP, your Nigerian contact can not justify paying a large ammount into a bank account when the job cost is only a grand if they are indeed laundering money... which by the way, they are...

Greedy people atract scam artisist and you must never be arrogant as to what the sum £X,XXX.XX means to you relative to the person finally receiving it, you even get this difference between the North and South of Britain never mind Africa, Asia and Western Europe so be vigilant and understand relatively speaking why the scam artist is willing to go to so much trouble. The team you met are the well spoken English fluent 'hook' team to rope you in, all seems good but there are several levels of scam you could be targeted with despite precautions...

(1) Money laundering and the use of your name to buy contraband, guns etc via identity theft.
(2) The Standing Order / Direct Debit pinch, you sign a contract and they have your bank details, they launder the money and then transfer it straight back out. They have your signature remember...
(3) The Dinner Date, you go out for a meal and they watch you enter your PIN into the terminal, they have your bank details... bye bye money.

As to whether charging too much is a crime, well no but on a commercial level and for longevity of business it's never a wise move unless you are into one hit wonders and building a relationship upon trust and repeat custom is what builds a "business" rather than a "market stall" so that is your own decision. If you have a good service and it's worth the money the value is relative to whose gaining from it, a £10k website may make a company five times as much opposed to a £500 website which may just be a business card online so let those with the humph blow steam.

My advice is walk away from anything to do with Africa period because it's just not worth the hassle, simple as...

 

[Sparklez35]

WHY are these streetwise clients not going elsewhere? WHY?

Im not sure who you mean when you say "streetwise clients"

That's the point, clients ARE going elsewhere. & if we didnt then we would no longer be in IT today and would be in the same boat as our former competitors - working as cab drivers and signing on.

We diversified for the same reason IT giants do, e.g. Norton - who make their Internet Security software - It is developned in Chennai a few streets away from ours.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

In this instance is the so called flaming a worse crime than bad company ethics..

Poppy xx

I am sorry if I have stepped over the forum line - but this is surely bad business practice.

You said it yourself, 2 wrogns don't make a right. so would you rather this thread be deleted and all record removed?

Charging someone £12k and outsourcing it isn't illegal, it is a morality issue, and one that the OP has laid bare for the world to see (including her potential clients).

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Im not sure who you mean when you say "streetwise clients"

That's the point, clients ARE going elsewhere. & if we didnt then we would no longer be in IT today and would be in the same boat as our former competitors - working as cab drivers and signing on.

We diversified for the same reason IT giants do, e.g. Norton - who make their Internet Security software - It is developned in Chennai a few streets away from ours.

man this is difficult.

I did say STOP and read your posts. You said these people are free to go elsewhere if they believe they are being overcharged THESE PEOPLE! the ones YOU are talking about The same ones wwe are discussing in this thread, the ones who are proposing to pay you £12k for a job you can get outsourced for £400.

I asked WHY would they NOT be going elsewhere, WHY YOU?, why are they using your services?

How did they contact you initially by the way? do you ahve the original email?

PLEASE understand that I am not having a go here

 

[Sparklez35]

I asked WHY would they NOT be going elsewhere, WHY YOU?, why are they using your services?

Because the job requires very specialised knowledge in a particular field (nothing to do with IT & not discussing it here) and be an experienced and qualified (post grad) project manager wrapped into one. He is the only one with both sets of academic qualifications, but he doesnt have the time to do the work personally so he will stand as project manager and select coders in Chennai who has the necessary experience and knowledge to do the work under his guidance.

Outsourcing coders is not new to us, we do it all the time with call-centre software software development, staff training and building works. I think some commentators see it to be an unethical biz practice.

How did they contact you initially by the way? do you ahve the original email?

Via website and yes.

 

[Zeno]

man this is difficult.

I did say STOP and read your posts. You said these people are free to go elsewhere if they believe they are being overcharged THESE PEOPLE! the ones YOU are talking about The same ones wwe are discussing in this thread, the ones who are proposing to pay you £12k for a job you can get outsourced for £400.

I asked WHY would they NOT be going elsewhere, WHY YOU?, why are they using your services?

How did they contact you initially by the way? do you ahve the original email?

PLEASE understand that I am not having a go here

Flogging a dead horse mate.

She will be back with a post in the legal forum entitled "Help" and most likely followed by a series of rants against the banks, the government & Jesus for allowing this misfortune to befall her.

 

[papverpoppies]

You said it yourself, 2 wrogns don't make a right. so would you rather this thread be deleted and all record removed?

Charging someone £12k and outsourcing it isn't illegal, it is a morality issue, and one that the OP has laid bare for the world to see (including her potential clients).

Great, thanks for that!

Nice to know that ethics are treated with such respect - not much point really is there, if I am treated the same as someone who is willing to try and rip someone off (however they try and window dress it).

Poppy xx

 

[captaincloser]

I Googled the word Troll to see if I was offended and if you can believe Wikipedia I think most Scandanavian Trolls would be deeply offended themselves that they have been included in this rant by the flagrant OP .

Trolls have heritage, passion, integrity and mostly much higher standards than this thread.

Oldeagleeye might be a Troll in disguise and therefore clearly offended

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Because the job requires very specialised knowledge in a particular field (nothing to do with IT & not discussing it here) and be an experienced and qualified (post grad) project manager wrapped into one. He is the only one with both sets of academic qualifications, but he doesnt have the time to do the work personally so he will stand as project manager and select coders in Chennai who has the necessary experience and knowledge to do the work under his guidance.

Outsourcing coders is not new to us, we do it all the time with call-centre software software development, staff training and building works. I think some commentators see it to be an unethical biz practice.



Via website and yes.

The reason I asked is that it might be prudent to search for a couple of text strings from that email to see if anything untoward turns up. Due dilligence and all that. Search for people names, search fro company names .

 

[LicensedToTrade]

The reason I asked is that it might be prudent to search for a couple of text strings from that email to see if anything untoward turns up. Due dilligence and all that. Search for people names, search fro company names .

Great idea, in fact grab a specific sentence and put speech marks either side of it and then search for it, it will search for that exact phrase in that exact order.

 

[papverpoppies]

You said it yourself, 2 wrogns don't make a right. so would you rather this thread be deleted and all record removed?

Charging someone £12k and outsourcing it isn't illegal, it is a morality issue, and one that the OP has laid bare for the world to see (including her potential clients).

Accepted, and I am sorry for getting on my 'high horse'!

Poppy xx

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Accepted, and I am sorry for getting on my 'high horse'!

Poppy xx

Nothing wrong with putting on the white suit getting on your horse and charging off to war

 

[Sparklez35]

The reason I asked is that it might be prudent to search for a couple of text strings from that email to see if anything untoward turns up. Due dilligence and all that. Search for people names, search fro company names .

All done, the bank did the credit search on the company and there is no UK trading history available, and as such, the bank says to take a BACS 50% advance and 50% at sign off.

I came to this forum to see is anyone else had experience on doing biz with nigerian clients. Im not impressed with the impertinence of some of the contributors. I cant see how a comment like this remotely answers the question.

Nothing wrong with putting on the white suit getting on your horse and charging off to war.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

All done, the bank did the credit search on the company and there is no UK trading history available, and as such, the bank says to take a BACS 50% advance and 50% at sign off.

I came to this forum to see is anyone else had experience on doing biz with nigerian clients. Im not impressed with the impertinence of some of the contributors. I cant see how a comment like this remotely answers the question.

I was replying to a previous post the one I quoted in my reply, it was not directly related to your original question.

Ask your bank what would happen if it later turned out that the money transferred to your account was transferred illegally. I have heard of people who have been conned having had the money come in, and as long as 6 months later had the transaction reversed, and them left holding the baby with a whopping great loss of cash.

I will say that people have offered advice, but sadly this thread has deteriorated into trench warfare with people shooting at anything that moves,(as your post I am replying to demonstrates).

Good luck with this client, and good luck with keeping hold of the profits made from the job, let us know how it goes, so you can either say 'hah you were all wrong, or 'unfortunately you were all right', either way, I hope it all turns out right in the end.

 

[Dominic Taylor]

We have clients all over the world including Nigeria, India, China, various African countries etc however if the scenario here turns out to be legit, I'll eat my hat and post pictures of me doing so!

 

[Sparklez35]

Ask your bank what would happen if it later turned out that the money transferred to your account was transferred illegally. I have heard of people who have been conned having had the money come in, and as long as 6 months later had the transaction reversed, and them left holding the baby with a whopping great loss of cash.

We are going to follow the banks lead on the money transfer aspect of the job, and the bank will contact the Nigerian sending bank to authenticate the transaction. If its then reversed, it cant. This is because the money will have been moved and probably absorbed into working capital.

I will say that people have offered advice,

The advice I came here for was about sharing experiences of doing biz with Nigerian clients. It seems I am accused of 'ripping' clients off due to the profit margin. Its not uncommon in IT where a developement contract is offshored.

Good luck with this client, and good luck with keeping hold of the profits made from the job, let us know how it goes, so you can either say 'hah you were all wrong, or 'unfortunately you were all right', either way, I hope it all turns out right in the end.

The way I percieve it, we have little to lose. We have all the necessary precautions in place, a willing client who has seen examples of my husbands work and spoken to exisiting clients, satisfied with his academic qualifications (I understand checking a contractors academic quals is standard business practice in Nigeria) and is keen to be moving forward.

This forum has made us aware how Nigerian money transfer scams work and we have protected ourselves if something goes wrong. There was no need for these accusations of trying to rip someone off or trying to out-fox somebody.

 

[Sparklez35]

We have clients all over the world including Nigeria,,,

if the scenario here turns out to be legit, I'll eat my hat and post pictures of me doing so!

We have never had a Nigerian client before, Tell us why this Nigerian client might not be legit?

 

[Zeno]

Ah, classic. It could almost be a stereotype of a scammer's wet dream of a victim.

Greedy, naive and unbelievably arrogant. There must tens of thousands of web designers in the UK but they come to you all the way from Nigeria? Must be quite a portfolio you have.

But never mind, you are obviously too clever to get scammed...

 

[Sparklez35]

The OP came on here asking should her company do business with the Nigerians.

I thought the thread says: - Doing biz with a Nigerian client - what are the risks.

Nothing about whether ot not we should proceed with a contract.

Then when the answers started to stack up as a no no,

My post didnt even ask the question.

 

[Sparklez35]

There must tens of thousands of web designers in the UK but they come to you all the way from Nigeria? Must be quite a portfolio you have....

If you read the thread, its nothing to do with portfolio.

The client selected us for other reasons than just being some web developer, infact web development has never been our principle product.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

There must tens of thousands of web designers in the UK but they come to you all the way from Nigeria? Must be quite a portfolio you have.

Zeno, but her husband has academic qualifications! Weren't you reading silly?