Does being self-employed mean you are not a business

[Drpepper]

Apparently, according to <<Edit>> (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=179266) if you are a sole trader you do not run a business. Only companies with Directors can call them a business. Do you agree?

My reasoning is that I'm a High Street retailer, have to be vat registered, carry public liability insurance, have to use a business bank account, employ 4 staff, have 67 trade accounts, pay business rates etc etc surely this make my business just a credible as any Ltd company?

 

[Kernowman]

Apparently, according to <<<Edited>>> (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=179266) if you are a sole trader you do not run a business. Only companies with Directors can call them a business. Do you agree?

My reasoning is that I'm a High Street retailer, have to be vat registered, carry public liability insurance, have to use a business bank account, employ 4 staff, have 67 trade accounts, pay business rates etc etc surely this make my business just a credible as any Ltd company?

Forget our learned colleague <<<Edited>>definition of a business and instead rely on HMRC's definition of what a business is

If you are making profit, you ARE a business

 

[Drpepper]

Forget our learned colleague <<<Edited>>>definition of a business and instead rely on HMRC's definition of what a business is

If you are making profit, you ARE a business

Thanks, I was beginning to worry that I might actually be unemployed

 

[thecyclingartist]

lol! that was my good laugh for the day! I might be unemployed too.

As far as I'm concerned, my wholesale suppliers consider me a business so I must be.

Tina.

 

[oldeagleeye]

My definition of a business doen't mean that you have to be a limited company. It is any business which employs staff and can be run albeit under supervision without the owner have to work full time.

In other words an electricial or plumber working alone or with a casual helper doesn't have a busineess he is just in a self employed occupation. An accountant working alone doen't have a business he is just a self-employed professional and is an achitect or solicitor professions. It is when the work for a firm and employ others they have a business.

You OP then according to my criteria do have a business only instead of director you takes your pick = self-employed Propriortor or simply Businessman.
Rob

 

[E Storey]

Lots of limited companies would not meet your criteria then, Particularly not those run by people who run 4 or 5 "businesses".

Personally I would rather run one small, profitable sole trader business than four or five loss making hobbies as limited companies.

 

[movietub]

Even if you are not making money you are 'a business'. Buy anything you intend to claim tax back on, or sell anything you will invoice for, and you're a business.

'In business' would probably be more accurate. 'A business' suggests that the business is it's own entity - which is only true of ltd/llp etc. As self employed, there is no distinction between you as an individual, and whatever business you may trade as. You are a single entity for legal and tax purposes.

So yea, self employed people are in business. But in fact, it makes no difference to tax or any legal recourse against them.

 

[thecyclingartist]

by the way, just doing my tax return. HMRC asks:

"How many self-employed businesses did you have?*12345 Please provide HM Revenue & Customs with the name of your business(es):"

 

[S-Marketing]

My definition of a business doen't mean that you have to be a limited company. It is any business which employs staff and can be run albeit under supervision without the owner have to work full time.

In other words an electricial or plumber working alone or with a casual helper doesn't have a busineess he is just in a self employed occupation. An accountant working alone doen't have a business he is just a self-employed professional and is an achitect or solicitor professions. It is when the work for a firm and employ others they have a business.

You OP then according to my criteria do have a business only instead of director you takes your pick = self-employed Propriortor or simply Businessman.
Rob

Never thought i'd say this, but I completely agree with OEE.

 

In other words an electricial or plumber working alone or with a casual helper doesn't have a busineess

What a load of old tosh.

If I sell matches on a street corner ( which I may well be doing before this recession is over :| ) I am in business.

I know plenty of self employed tradesmen who do very nicely as they do a tad more than fitting bathes and boilers.

Of course the big advantage of being a limited company is that when the excretum hits the fan.

You don't have to pay your debts.

And we call this a civilised society.

Earl

 

[Drpepper]

What a load of old tosh.

If I sell matches on a street corner ( which I may well be doing before this recession is over :| ) I am in business.

I know plenty of self employed tradesmen who do very nicely as they do a tad more than fitting bathes and boilers.

Of course the big advantage of being a limited company is that when the excretum hits the fan.

You don't have to pay your debts.

And we call this a civilised society.

Earl

If you need a job lot of matches I can help you out

 

[movietub]

What a load of old tosh.

If I sell matches on a street corner ( which I may well be doing before this recession is over :| ) I am in business.

I know plenty of self employed tradesmen who do very nicely as they do a tad more than fitting bathes and boilers.

Of course the big advantage of being a limited company is that when the excretum hits the fan.

You don't have to pay your debts.

And we call this a civilised society.

Earl

Quite! I don't understand why there is such arguement about what 'a business' is. If you sell any product or service routinely and you are not employed by anyone else you are in business.

The rest of the debate comes down to what individuals class as a 'real business'. I don't have a problem with people setting their own definitions of course, but comparing them with others is a bit pointless!

Earl - I have a match for you...

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I think some people are getting confused between a 'business' and a 'company'.

A company is a registered business entity such as a limited company. If someone is self-employed, they don't have a company.

However, a business is simply an enterprise where someone is trying to make money. If you register as self-employed and set up a business, then you have a business.

 

[Drpepper]

I think some people are getting confused between a 'business' and a 'company'.

A company is a registered business entity such as a limited company. If someone is self-employed, they don't have a company.

However, a business is simply an enterprise where someone is trying to make money. If you register as self-employed and set up a business, then you have a business.

I agree Ltd, Plc, Sole Trader, Partnership etc just describes how your business is registered and an indication as to how the shareholding may be distributed and where the liabilities lie. One is not necessarily more legitimate than another.

 

I think some people are getting confused between a 'business' and a 'company'.

A company is a registered business entity such as a limited company. If someone is self-employed, they don't have a company.

However, a business is simply an enterprise where someone is trying to make money. If you register as self-employed and set up a business, then you have a business.

Not true an individual can be a company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company

Earl

 

[OnegreatLink]

DrPepper; yep anybody who is actually making money (be it a self employed ie. an eBay seller to someone running a large corporation) is running a business. It's then up to the government to decide what is taxable or illegal. Movietub; 'a business' is the purchase and sale of goods and services. A person is not running 'a business' or 'in business' if they are not making any money.

 

[saxondale]

Movietub; 'a business' is the purchase and sale of goods and services. A person is not running 'a business' or 'in business' if they are not making any money.

incorrect, you can be "in business" and make a loss just the same - see British Airways for clarification.


It`s semantics, you can be "in business" but you cannot "own" a business, you own a "company"

 

[Matt1959]

incorrect, you can be "in business" and make a loss just the same - see British Airways for clarification.


It`s semantics, you can be "in business" but you cannot "own" a business, you own a "company"

if you have say a shoe shop that employs staff and a manager and you are sole proprietor then you "own a business" surely?

 

you are sole proprietor

Of course you are dear its a shoe shop.

Earl

 

[Matt1959]

Of course you are dear its a shoe shop.

Earl

duh trust you Earl - I never noticed that, honestly guv

 

[thebigIAM]

Why are you debating this? Why do you even care???

 

[14A]

Why are you debating this? Why do you even care???

It's in relation to the topic quoted in which a member said the OP doesn't own a business.

 

[oldeagleeye]

Earl. If you sold matches on the street corner you are a vendor or purveyor of matches.

You don't have a business because if your not there the next day there is no business and we are talking about what is the definition of a 'business' and not doing business or being in business so plrease don't accuse me of talking tosh.

BTW. Was your unability to sell all those boxes of matches on the street corner how you got into the dolls house business. I once made a Fort out of matches never even thought of Dolls houses. Well done mate.


Matt. Yes that shoe shop is a business. It would even be a business if it were a market stall - providing the owner had someone that could run the stall in his absence.

To repeat then. A business is an entity that doesn't have to rely on the owner personally running it all the time. Where the business carries on when he or she is not there.

Rob

 

[saxondale]

if you have say a shoe shop that employs staff and a manager and you are sole proprietor then you "own a business" surely?

no, it`s basic grammar, you are "in business" ................. in the same way you are "in" a "partnership"

 

[saxondale]

Earl. If you sold matches on the street corner you are a vendor or purveyor of matches.

You don't have a business because if your not there the next day there is no business

you can be in business you cannot "have" a business.

To repeat then. A business is an entity that doesn't have to rely on the owner personally running it all the time. Where the business carries on when he or she is not there.

Rob

to repeat then, a business cannot exist, it is a state NOT a product.

 

[Rufford]

"A business (also known as company, enterprise, or firm) is a legally recognized organization designed to provide goods, services, or both to consumers or tertiary business in exchange for money."

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business

Comment: the mix up is between people doing business and the entity called a business I guess

 

[Rufford]

Earl. If you sold matches on the street corner you are a vendor or purveyor of matches.

You don't have a business because if your not there the next day there is no business and we are talking about what is the definition of a 'business' and not doing business or being in business so plrease don't accuse me of talking tosh.

BTW. Was your unability to sell all those boxes of matches on the street corner how you got into the dolls house business. I once made a Fort out of matches never even thought of Dolls houses. Well done mate.


Matt. Yes that shoe shop is a business. It would even be a business if it were a market stall - providing the owner had someone that could run the stall in his absence.

To repeat then. A business is an entity that doesn't have to rely on the owner personally running it all the time. Where the business carries on when he or she is not there.

Rob

But if you were self employed selling matches for a producer; you had one supplier, would you be a business?

 

[saxondale]

"A business (also known as company, enterprise, or firm) is a legally recognized organization designed to provide goods, services, or both to consumers or tertiary business in exchange for money."

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business

Comment: the mix up is between people doing business and the entity called a business I guess

your using wiki as a "source" on a suposed serious business forum?

 

[Rufford]

your using wiki as a "source" on a suposed serious business forum?

Not sure about your statement causing augment but in the meantime here is another definition:

Businesses are everywhere. They are the units that perform most of the economic activity in our economy. Most businesses exist to generate a profit. There are some businesses that exist to perform a function other than profit, such as cooperatives and non-profit organisations. The traditional definition of a business is an entity that brings together time, effort and capital in order to produce a profit.

 

[saxondale]

Not sure about your statement causing augment but in the meantime here is another definition:

Businesses are everywhere. They are the units that perform most of the economic activity in our economy. Most businesses exist to generate a profit. There are some businesses that exist to perform a function other than profit, such as cooperatives and non-profit organisations. The traditional definition of a business is an entity that brings together time, effort and capital in order to produce a profit.

you do realise anything written like this source on the interweb is just someone elses view?


Oxford English Dictionary anyone?




.

 

[Rufford]

you do realise anything written like this source on the interweb is just someone elses view?


Oxford English Dictionary anyone?




.

Of course. Like a lot of things we have; lots of people have them but they are all different

I merely express my view or opinion..

 

[VeraJ]

I can't understand why anyone would want to bat this inane discussion backwards and forwards.

Business not working out for you?

 

[Rufford]

I can't understand why anyone would want to bat this inane discussion backwards and forwards.

Business not working out for you?

To be candid I think I agree with you. I was thinking that maybe I should start a thread that says - If 49% of businesses including the self employed are by definition less than average then are some of them in that number there because they spend to much time on this forum aimlessly musing with no real benefit? I of course didn't start this thread and won't start the suggested 49er either.

I think that notwithstanding that I am not a member of the 49er's l'll nevertheless have to get back to my day job

 

Earl. If you sold matches on the street corner you are a vendor or purveyor of matches.

You don't have a business because if your not there the next day there is no business and we are talking about what is the definition of a 'business' and not doing business or being in business so plrease don't accuse me of talking tosh.


Rob

Try telling Bryant and May that.

So people who have the weekend off don't have a business.?:|

Apologies for the tosh,lets say you are splitting hairs in the extreme for what purpose I know not what.?

Some sort of elitist type thing maybe.

Anyone who is not employed by another is in business and has a business no matter how many hours minutes,seconds they spend on it.

And automatically become a company even if they are selling hot dogs.

Earl

 

[Drpepper]

Not sure about your statement causing augment but in the meantime here is another definition:

Businesses are everywhere. They are the units that perform most of the economic activity in our economy. Most businesses exist to generate a profit. There are some businesses that exist to perform a function other than profit, such as cooperatives and non-profit organisations. The traditional definition of a business is an entity that brings together time, effort and capital in order to produce a profit.

So that definition, which you obviously believe to be accurate, does not conclude that a sole trader is not/can not have a business. As my shop is a unit that performs economic activity in our economy I'm included in that statement.

Thank you for applying some common sense at last

 

[SamStones]

My take on it:

I own 100% of the shares of a limited company and have done for a number of years. When I initially started the company I considered myself "self employed" , there was just me, without me, nothing happened. Now I employ staff I consider that same company "a business" as it generates its own revenue outside of the direct effort that I myself put in.

Profit or loss over the course of the year doesn't come into it.

 

[thebigIAM]

I can't understand why anyone would want to bat this inane discussion backwards and forwards.

Exactly.

You mean to say, with all the demands that running a business can put upon your time, that you honestly can't find anything better to do than debate this?

It's not a willy wagging contest, is it?

 

[Drpepper]

I can't understand why anyone would want to bat this inane discussion backwards and forwards.

Exactly.

You mean to say, with all the demands that running a business can put upon your time, that you honestly can't find anything better to do than debate this?

The point was some jumped up website owner who happens to be a Ltd company claiming that self-employed/sole traders were somehow "lesser" and not real businesses. I was just curious what other people thought, a debate that's all, it doesn't have to be deep and meaningful to be interesting.

Pot & Kettle come to mind, your finding the time to post here

 

[thebigIAM]

I'm more curious as to why you haven't decided to run your business as a limited company. I can't help but feel it would be more beneficial to you.

 

[Drpepper]

I'm more curious as to why you haven't decided to run your business as a limited company. I can't help but feel it would be more beneficial to you.

I have discussed this at length with my accountants, my main business is the High Street shop - doing very nicely thank you (well ok!). I also have other smaller business interests. Being a sole trader means I can move the cash between the businesses at will and as necessary with little or no paperwork etc, that is the main reason.

As with all businesses there are pro's and con's to going Ltd, what is right for one isn't right for another.