Do You Hire Foreigners?

[cristinabarkerjones]

Hi there!
Our floor sanding company is about to hire 10 new employees next month. We have only hired people from the UK so far. We don't have any experience in hiring people from other countries. So, could you help us by answering some of these questions:

What experience do you have with foreign employees?
Do you think it's a good idea to hire people from abroad and why?
Do you recommend workers from a certain country that are generally hard-working?

 

[RedOnion]

Why don't you hire people who can do the job, rather than pick a country and hire from there?

 

[cristinabarkerjones]

Why don't you hire people who can do the job, rather than pick a country and hire from there?

Of course we want to hire people who can do the job, but there are so many job applicants and it's hard to interview all of them.

 

[HRinMinutes]

You cannot just select employees from countries in the way you describe and if you are considering this method get HR/Employment law advice fast. Its not a selection process which will assist you at all on many levels.

 

[dooyoo]

It clearly depends on individual, and has nothing to do with what country you come from, it is more from what kind of family you come from and how you've been brought up.

But I can tell you that culture from ex soviet block countries is that if you do not work you do not eat!!! And people could be fired from pretty much anything.

If I would hire employees I would look at people from eastern Europe first, just because they are not used to be so picky and do not wine as much and would go the extra mile. I am talking in general, lets say 6 out of 10 eastern Europeans will be like that and 4 out of 10 Brits would be like that.

But this is just my opinion and I am not claiming that there is any truth to it at all. It is clearly what I have experienced during 6.5 years in construction field. I once asked my old boss why does he hire so much foreigners and he said they have better work ethics, will show up on time and work harder.

 

[cristinabarkerjones]

It clearly depends on individual, and has nothing to do with what country you come from, it is more from what kind of family you come from and how you've been brought up.

But I can tell you that culture from ex soviet block countries is that if you do not work you do not eat!!! And people could be fired from pretty much anything.

If I would hire employees I would look at people from eastern Europe first, just because they are not used to be so picky and do not wine as much and would go the extra mile. I am talking in general, lets say 6 out of 10 eastern Europeans will be like that and 4 out of 10 Brits would be like that.

But this is just my opinion and I am not claiming that there is any truth to it at all. It is clearly what I have experienced during 6.5 years in construction field. I once asked my old boss why does he hire so much foreigners and he said they have better work ethics, will show up on time and work harder.

Thank you for your sincere answer! I know that many people will not admit there is a difference between workers from different countries. However, such a difference does exist. For instance, if you hire German employees, you can be 80% sure they will do the job as good as they can. Everybody knows how durable German cars are. This is due to the hard-working employees and their propensity to follow the rules.
So, I'm glad you recommend people from eastern Europe. We have many applicants from countries from the ex soviet block.

 

[ethical PR]

Everybody knows you can't generalise.

Why on earth would you interview everyone who applys?

If you have your recruitment and selection right you will short list the candidates with the right experience and qualities that you are looking for, regardless of where they come from.

 

[MASSEY]

We're a small business and generally offer work to people who we know can do the job, irrespective of their ethnicity. We've hired Polish, Indians, Pakistani, Irish, Welsh, as long as they turn up when they say they will and do the work we don't care.

I personally would never discriminate in this way, but as a smaller company using subcontractors it's easier to get rid of people because you simply stop using them.

If we were a larger outfit requiring lots of labor and possibly offering people full time employment, in the property renovation sector, i'd possibly do some extensive research into whether or not Polish people, or what have you, are actually harder workers / go the extra mile over people born in the UK.

Having done a lot of agency work in my early years, and always turning up late because it was mundane and low paid and i simply did not care, i often found myself observing immigrants who seemed to put in an incredibly disproportionate amount of effort in for their minimum wage pay.

Although there were probably just as many English people there grafting away in hope that it will lead to a full time job. It's a tough topic.

But what i will say about people born in Europe who have come to the UK, their pigeon English can be troublesome.

Giving orders to two Polish guys, one of whom had been in the UK for a great number of years and did not speak any English, resulted in an expensive work top being cut incorrectly causing us to have to do extra work to hide the mistake. And the Polish guy who did speak English would often make mistakes and did cost us time and money (maybe because he didn't have the same intellect and skill set as an English kitchen fitter as Poland is poorer?). They always turned up when they said they would, though.

I don't think the op can be reprimanded for discussing this in reality.

 

[RedOnion]

I wouldn't say the OP was being reprimanded for discussing this, I just questioned it as it seemed a very strange way of choosing staff - by their nationality.

I don't understand how a sweeping statement can be made that implies all foreign workers will be better than UK workers.

From my experience of working with UK staff as well as staff from Poland, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Romania etc, etc, you get a mixture of how hard and well staff work. Ranging from very bad to excellent. Don't think their nationality had anything to do with how they worked.

 

[MASSEY]

I wouldn't say the OP was being reprimanded for discussing this, I just questioned it as it seemed a very strange way of choosing staff - by their nationality.

But is it strange, it seems to work well for all these big brands in the UK that like to advertise their jobs directly to immigrants living abroad? to get around UK law until found out and exposed? Why do they do it?

Is it because they think they get more bang for their buck with an immigrant? Quite possibly....

I don't understand how a sweeping statement can be made that implies all foreign workers will be better than UK workers.

It is technically a politically incorrect statement, but it doesn't make it strange or false. It has merits.

From my experience of working with UK staff as well as staff from Poland, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Romania etc, etc, you get a mixture of how hard and well staff work. Ranging from very bad to excellent. Don't think their nationality had anything to do with how they worked.

I would agree that there is a mixture of hard workers and people who try to get away with giving the bare minimum, as i did when i was employed, but there is no smoke without fire when it comes to the nationality and work ethic topic.

 

[cristinabarkerjones]

I wouldn't say the OP was being reprimanded for discussing this, I just questioned it as it seemed a very strange way of choosing staff - by their nationality.

I don't understand how a sweeping statement can be made that implies all foreign workers will be better than UK workers.

From my experience of working with UK staff as well as staff from Poland, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Romania etc, etc, you get a mixture of how hard and well staff work. Ranging from very bad to excellent. Don't think their nationality had anything to do with how they worked.

Our company doesn't think "all foreign workers are better than UK workers". We only consider hiring foreigners because most of them are not too picky when it comes to hard work and salary. 2014 was a difficult year for Great Floor Sanding and our manager wants to cut some expenses. This is the sad truth!

 

[sirearl]

We only consider hiring foreigners because most of them are not too picky when it comes to hard work and salary.

I suspect the word you are looking for is "CHEAP"

 

[cristinabarkerjones]

I suspect the word you are looking for is "CHEAP"

Cheap sounds offensive. But yes, it is cheaper to hire foreigners. Don't you agree?

 

[MASSEY]

It's a double edged sword, they're cheap but i guess it's what they deserve after the influx of Polish, for example, sucked a lot of value out of the domestic installation and building trades due to them undercutting everyone to get work. They have made themselves cheap.

That's why i would prefer vetted immigration instead of letting any tom in.

I'm not bitter though.

 

[RedOnion]

Cheap sounds offensive. But yes, it is cheaper to hire foreigners. Don't you agree?

So really your question in your first post should have been "Which foreigners will work for the cheapest rate?" and not about trying to find out who worked the hardest?

And yes, cheap does sound offensive, as I now think your question is.

 

[simon field]

Cheap compared to what?

Don't tell me - cheap compared to our (once) 'flourishing' labour market? You know, the one where plumbers 'wouldn't get out of bed for less than £200 a day'?

The one where a bloke who could put one brick on top of the other in straight line got paid £1200 a week?

Cheap compared to Sumatran or Glaswegian labour?

If it's cheap, it's only a levelling out of the playing field, and its only cheap when compared to greed along with a blind belief that everything has to always stay the same forever.

 

[cristinabarkerjones]

So really your question in your first post should have been "Which foreigners will work for the cheapest rate?" and not about trying to find out who worked the hardest?

You twist my words. We already know hiring foreigners will cost our company less. However, what is really important for us is to know which foreigners have the best reputation. It's obvious we won't hire lazy people who are "the cheapest". We want hard-workers that will satisfy the needs of our clients in London.

 

[IanG]

I'm not even sure your current approach is legal, never mind sound.

 

[simon field]

Why not ask the foreigners, instead of a bunch of natives on a business forum?

 

[cristinabarkerjones]

I'm not even sure your current approach is legal, never mind sound.

I don't understand you people. All I wanted to ask is which foreigners have the best reputation in London. Why is it offensive?! If I had asked, which country produces the best vehicles, nobody would have ever judged my question. It's all about reputation, when it comes to business.

 

[cristinabarkerjones]

Why not ask the foreigners, instead of a bunch of natives on a business forum?

Hmmm and what do you expect them to say? Are they supposed to answer honestly?

 

[simon field]

I would have thought so, yes.

Do you suspect dishonesty amongst the - you know - 'foreigners'?

Are the people of UKBF above dishonesty in some strange way?

 

[IanG]

Sure someone will be along to clarify the legal position but I'm quite sure you can't set out with the intention to hire a foreigner based on the fact that you assume they work better for less money.

Its discriminatory, but most of all, its going to rule out a good number of people who may be perfectly fit for the job.

We're not talking about vehicles. We're talking about a workforce of people who you want to recruit from, and your methods are frankly bizarre.

Even being complementary to the Germans sounds bizarre. Have you sampled a sufficient number of Germans to make that judgement?

Put your prejudices aside, write a job spec of what is required and decide what you're going to pay, and see who you get.

From that batch, shortlist based on merit and interview the best.

I'm not offended, but I don't think asking on the internet about people's experiences is in any way a good approach to the challenge of recruiting someone in your area for your job.

 

[MASSEY]

Cheap compared to what?

Don't tell me - cheap compared to our (once) 'flourishing' labour market? You know, the one where plumbers 'wouldn't get out of bed for less than £200 a day'?

The one where a bloke who could put one brick on top of the other in straight line got paid £1200 a week?

If it's cheap, it's only a leveling out of the playing field, and its only cheap when compared to greed along with a blind belief that everything has to always stay the same forever.

My dad was rewiring houses for roughly 2 grand ten years ago. 10 years later he's still rewiring them for roughly 2 grand, but the materials have doubled in price, so he's effectively taken a pay cut.

What is level about that playing field?

 

[dooyoo]

Hmmm and what do you expect them to say? Are they supposed to answer honestly?

I think you can get some "cheaper" workers if you offer work short term and get them form abroad and you provide housing and food (but everything decent). Basically they will not need that extra money for "our bills" that we need, and might work for £8-£10/hour when UK residents would work for £13-£15, and they would be happy to put in longer days and 6 working days a week.

There are many people in eastern Europe that are looking for something where they could come for short time, make some money for car/apartment/renovations other projects etc., go to work from day 1 (well within 5 days) and then leave after half a year or so and have their bills cut to a minimum while here. Truly what you would understand as migrant workers, they would not have a child minder bill to pay, car insurance and maintenance, and all other UK bills and I think they can claim back taxes as well.

But I would not hold my breath in hope to hire cheaper UK resident workforce just because they are immigrants. Any UK resident will have to pay our bills/ mortgage and other costs, it doesn't matter if they are foreigners or not.

 

[WHARTY]

Cheap sounds offensive. But yes, it is cheaper to hire foreigners. Don't you agree?

Are you a troll?

 

[simon field]

My dad was rewiring houses for roughly 2 grand ten years ago. 10 years later he's still rewiring them for roughly 2 grand, but the materials have doubled in price, so he's effectively taken a pay cut.

What is level about that playing field?

Is that not the perfect example of the leveling of the playing field?

People can come here to work. We can go places and work.

 

[The Byre]

I must say that even thinking about which nationality to favour is foolish, but then I have had good experience with German and Polish employees - but I have also had bad experience with both nationalities. To the OP, just stop fretting over who, where, what and how and interview for good people, regardless of nationality. To say that you can't interview them all tells me you (and not your employees) are lazy! Just roll up your sleeves and get on with it!

I have had very, very bad experience with British workers. About one in four just does not know the meaning of the word 'work'.

And yes, I do mean at every level - from the senior manager to the bloke cleaning the yard with a brush and pan.

You will get good and bad apples in every barrel, but in a British barrel, you are more likely to get bad apples than in any other barrel.

They -

Start work at nine instead of eight or seven.
Hold private conversations during working hours.
Turn up late.
Leave early.
Come to me with excuses for not having completed something.
Waste time consulting with colleagues over unimportant details, instead of just doing it.

I could go on, but you get the gist!

 

[K-rado]

Hi there!
Our floor sanding company is about to hire 10 new employees next month. We have only hired people from the UK so far. We don't have any experience in hiring people from other countries. So, could you help us by answering some of these questions:

What experience do you have with foreign employees?
Do you think it's a good idea to hire people from abroad and why?
Do you recommend workers from a certain country that are generally hard-working?

HI All. In fairness to the OP, and I think things have got a little off-topic, the questions seems reasonable enough. Thus so far, having employed UK Nationals, that the employer could communicate with and understood the work ethics of such employees, the company now needs to employ 10 new employees. I suspect that there has been a larger than average number of applicants for non-UK workers and the OP has stated that they have no experience of foreign national employees and is clearly apprehensive, and rightly so. I have considerable experience with working with a diverse multi-national work force and yes there are work ethic differences between different nationalities, some, may I hascent to add some are better than those of UK nationals as is the quality of workmanship. The general consciences is correct (IMHO) that you cannot establish a recruitment campaign based on employees nationality but I do not see any concern in asking a question about employing a foreign workforce when the OP has stated that they have no experience of employing non UK employees. I would say to the OP, from experience, that you generally get what you pay for and cheaper is not always better and visa versa. There are many more important things than nationality in employing people such as workmanship, qualification, experience, customer facing skills, willingness to learn and adopt your companies policies and procedures - to name but a few. A person that shows up every day and does an OK Job is a good benchmark for employment irrespective of nationality. though you do need a mix if experience even if you pay a little more and they do not show up on time. Having the ability and structure in place to communicate with your employees from day one is paramount. Know what you expect from them, know their limitations, know what you want them to do and not to do and to what standard. Hard work in itself I know but thats the joys of been an employer . K

 

[Newchodge]

You will also have to make sure that whoever you employ has the right to work in the UK.

 

[Siralex]

It's not an easy task to find cheap and good workers from Eastern Europe as it used to be. In 2004 only UK, Ireland and Sweden opened their job markets and Eastern Europeans themselves were hungry for work. Now all of Western Europe is open to them and wage demand increased significantly. And don't forget, Eastern Europe is not India or China, there are no billions of people there. Few clients of mine tried to source workers from Latvia and Poland recently with no avail. Local recruiters said that all good workers gone to Germany and Netherlands in the last 2 years.

 

[The Byre]

People forget that the UK is the poorest country in North West Europe and wages here are singularly unattractive when compared with Scandinavia, Germany or the Benelux countries.

Also, as we have the highest difference between rich and poor of any country in Europe, so wages at the bottom of the infamous ladder are far lower than elsewhere.

 

[sirearl]

People forget that the UK is the poorest country in North West Europe and wages here are singularly unattractive when compared with Scandinavia, Germany or the Benelux countries.

Also, as we have the highest difference between rich and poor of any country in Europe, so wages at the bottom of the infamous ladder are far lower than elsewhere.

I don;'t think we are the poorest country by any means,but we do have very low wages in relation to living costs.

 

[The Byre]

GDP per capita OECD figures for 2013 -

Sweden $57,110
Denmark $59,890
Norway $98,080
Luxembourg $79,785
Austria $49,580
Finland $48,810
Germany $44,020
Belgium $46,610
Switzerland $83,330
Netherlands $50,090
France $42,380
Ireland $47,480
UK $39,183

 

[Matt1959]

I have had very, very bad experience with British workers. About one in four just does not know the meaning of the word 'work'.

And yes, I do mean at every level - from the senior manager to the bloke cleaning the yard with a brush and pan.

You will get good and bad apples in every barrel, but in a British barrel, you are more likely to get bad apples than in any other barrel.

They -

Start work at nine instead of eight or seven.
Hold private conversations during working hours.
Turn up late.
Leave early.
Come to me with excuses for not having completed something.
Waste time consulting with colleagues over unimportant details, instead of just doing it.

I could go on, but you get the gist!

I think this is quite a widely held view which in turn must mean that when looking for workers, an employer is bound to be a bit biased when faced with various nationalities even if they dont mean to be? If I wanted to hire someone in my trade and from experience most UK applicants were poor and most Polish were good then at the outset I'd be erring toward Poles.

 

[Vectis]

GDP per capita OECD figures for 2013 -

Sweden $57,110
Denmark $59,890
Norway $98,080
Luxembourg $79,785
Austria $49,580
Finland $48,810
Germany $44,020
Belgium $46,610
Switzerland $83,330
Netherlands $50,090
France $42,380
Ireland $47,480
UK $39,183

That's a bit one sided, simply taking the 'value' of goods and services produced in the country as an indication of the 'wealth' of it's people. Some of those countries have far higher cost of living than the UK.

 

[The Byre]

If there is one thing British companies and employees do brilliantly, it is to come up with excuses for not doing something. If I ask a garage to fix something, they will tell me that the analysis machine doesn't have the data for that model. If I ask a man to clean the floor, he will be unable to find the mop and bucket. If I ask someone to write a report by Tuesday, on Wednesday I know I will get the most beautiful explanation as to why the report still has not been written.

"The dog ate my homework!" seems to be a way of life here!

Last year I gave clear instructions to a group of people that they should attend a trade fair. They didn't and words were spoken in no uncertain manner. I assumed that the message would carry over to this year and that I did not need to repeat myself. I deliberately said nothing, I wanted to see who shows some initiative. I attended that show and only one of this happy band of pilgrims bothered to show up. They probably hope that when their fixed term contracts come up for renewal, I will have forgotten this massive lapse.

Our German office once needed some parts and I suggested they ask a Sheffield company, as they might be much cheaper than the usual supplier in Cologne. The buyer was a bit miffed, as that meant she had to wait until 10:30am (German time) before anybody in the UK actually is behind their desks and able to use a telephone.

(Orders in Germany usually are made first thing in the morning at 8am, so if you want to do business with German companies, be at your desk at seven in the morning!)

"The parts will be with you on Wednesday!" said some woman in sales.

Wednesday came, then Thursday and then Friday - no parts. On Monday the purchaser called the UK company to ask when, if ever, those parts would arrive.

She got the best answer I think I have ever heard -

"When I said Wednesday, I meant the kind of day on which you might expect delivery. Like Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, days like that. Do you still want them?"

It was clear that the parts had never even been dispatched. The buyer ordered them from the German supplier and they arrived the next day.

 

[The Byre]

That's a bit one sided, simply taking the 'value' of goods and services produced in the country as an indication of the 'wealth' of it's people. Some of those countries have far higher cost of living than the UK.

That is a valid point and once the cost of living is taken into account, (i.e. weighting by purchasing power parity) then the UK is only equal last with Finland and France.

However, both Finland and France are improving their GDP per capita, whereas the UK continues to fall.

 

[MikeJ]

If there is one thing British companies and employees do brilliantly, it is to come up with excuses for not doing something. If I ask a garage to fix something, they will tell me that the analysis machine doesn't have the data for that model. If I ask a man to clean the floor, he will be unable to find the mop and bucket. If I ask someone to write a report by Tuesday, on Wednesday I know I will get the most beautiful explanation as to why the report still has not been written.

If you'd written that about any other nationality, you'd be quite rightly called a racist.

 

[Faevilangel]

You need to hire based on the individuals skills and not their birth place.

I can give you loads of examples of bad work by foreign nationals including turning up pissed, stealing etc but you will get that with any group of people.

You can't discriminate based on their nationality, you need to hire the best person for the job.

I could hire someone for £30 an hour to do work for me and get a poor job, but I could pay someone £10 and get a much better job. Pay someone the wage they expect for the work they do, make sure they are happy with the job and you will get a decent worker, pay someone peanuts and they will do a poor job.