Do UK businesses positively look for eco-friendly supplies or is that a myth?

[IanSuth]

Last year, farming inputs rose by 22% - prices did not! Farming tenancies are tantamount to impossible to obtain. When a tenancy comes onto the market here in the UK, you can expect at least 100 applicants and each one will file a complete business plan over many pages just to stand a chance of a one-in-a-hundred success. Buying and equipping a viable farm will cost you millions and rich people are buying them up and planting trees to garner subsidies and avoid death duties.

This is a longstanding trend, in the 80's the farms around us were buying new machinery until it became so expensive they instead used contractors.

Instead we were make do and mend with old machinery. They were using contractors combines costing £100k's charged out on a per hour/day basis so the drivers were pushed to drive as fast as possible leading to lower recovery yields (if you went into a field and pulled apart the straw you could see grains on the floor) , We had 3 Claas SF combine harvesters which were so old they were silver not green and had non removeable 10' headers, 1 was cannibalised to make the other 2 work. Those machines cost if i remember the story right about £500 in total in 1977 from a distressed farm sale, we could still get most spare parts when needed or adapt parts form the later Matador series (we retrofitted the longer straw walkers from that), what we ended up with was combines which took 3 times as long to harvest a field BUT if you pulled aside the straw you would be hard pressed to find a missed piece of corn. Also as an older design they were better able to deal with grass in the crop and oats laid flat by storms, plus they were lighter so could get into a wetter field.

We had the set of sieves from the 3rd machine sat on the floor running static by our grain dryer, we would set the combines to leave nothing in the field then set the static sieve/fan (which was not being bounced around) to remove the fine stuff. We were therefore running as efficient as possible without needing to use as much herbicide or straw shortener.

we tried for as long as possible to use our own seed corn which we knew the variety match our soil - but then they stopped the sale of organo-mercury seed dressing you have to use as a fungicide (probably for the good of my health considering it used to be mixed in an industrial cement mixer by the 1/2 tonne load and i would end up pink from the dressing dust)

Our dryer was run originally by belt from a IH B250 30hp tractor and then by a static Perkins Diesel engine (one of 5 with the others retrofitted in everything form a Mk2 cortina to a HA Viva Beagle van)- we even tried to mix old sump oil with the diesel in the burner to save fuel (was counterproductive as sump oil burns very wet)

Basically farming can be done 2 ways - one way is super capital intense relies upon ever greater usage of chemicals/ tweaks as people chase the latest trend / government spin and subsidies

The other is super efficient in capital make do and mend, do you what you need to to work with not against your land - that is what we did and from what he has said Byre does

That is why we had 2 families (8 children 4 adults) living off 80 acres in Sussex with just a bit of car mechanics over the winter as additional income

(Our machinery was the Claas SF's and 4 tractors all International Harvesters, a B634, B614, B414 (with loader) and B250, we even made adaptor plates to fit the 634's wheels on the 250 to produce a low ground pressure version for nitrogen spreading on the heavy clay in spring)

 

[IanSuth]

Long and short of it

If you want to sell wooden signs to people like me, do so, but you are likely better off selling them as nice looking, traditional and as an aside" a bit greener" than trying to plug the "eco" bit first and foremost

 

[The Byre]

This is a longstanding trend, in the 80's the farms around us were buying new machinery until it became so expensive they instead used contractors.

That's the way the likes of Dear John and all the other machinery makers want it. Kit so expensive that only a contractor working it 24/7 can make the payments.

(Our machinery was the Claas SF's and 4 tractors all International Harvesters, a B634, B614, B414 (with loader) and B250, we even made adaptor plates to fit the 634's wheels on the 250 to produce a low ground pressure version for nitrogen spreading on the heavy clay in spring)

I have an IH475 with a loader and I swear those things are indestructible! Mine sat for four years (air in the fuel line and pump) so, as I was not using it and had another business on the go that took up my time, every time I walked past it, I gave the lift pump a few pushes to purge the air.

With the advent of C19, that business had to close and the people went off to do other things, so I had the time to footle about with the IH475 and charged the battery to see what would happen - if anything. Yes, you guessed it! Four years standing and it started first time!

The other thing about those Perkins engines is that they use almost no fuel! I have even looked into the tank just in case the gauge was bust as it was not going down much!

Someone told me that one can even run them on heating oil - but I am leary to try!

 

[Eco - Robert]

Aluminium is one of the best things to recycle, due to the massive amounts of electricity needed to extract aluminium from Bauxite by electrolysis it is actually far more efficient and cheaper to get it from recycling than refine from scratch. I learnt that from OLevel Geography in the 80's

OK, I'll give a point for that one Ian. But would you consider a wooden sign if the situation arose?
The person from The Byre is interesting don't you think?

 

[Eco - Robert]

Long and short of it

If you want to sell wooden signs to people like me, do so, but you are likely better off selling them as nice looking, traditional and as an aside" a bit greener" than trying to plug the "eco" bit first and foremost

Oh I see, I missed this one, sorry, you've answered my question.

 

[IanSuth]

That's the way the likes of Dear John and all the other machinery makers want it. Kit so expensive that only a contractor working it 24/7 can make the payments.

I have an IH475 with a loader and I swear those things are indestructible! Mine sat for four years (air in the fuel line and pump) so, as I was not using it and had another business on the go that took up my time, every time I walked past it, I gave the lift pump a few pushes to purge the air.

With the advent of C19, that business had to close and the people went off to do other things, so I had the time to footle about with the IH475 and charged the battery to see what would happen - if anything. Yes, you guessed it! Four years standing and it started first time!

The other thing about those Perkins engines is that they use almost no fuel! I have even looked into the tank just in case the gauge was bust as it was not going down much!

Someone told me that one can even run them on heating oil - but I am leary to try!

Our 414 had had a cracked block for decades, if it had sat for a while you opened the sump plug until it stopped running water and ran black, shut it and topped the radiator up then started it.

I cant model remember the code for the Perkins but they were a 4 cylinder i think 1.7l (maybe smaller) that were originally designed for marine use. I remember aged 16 doing a 32 mile each way ride on a 50cc moped to get a new brass injector pipe for No3 cylinder from Hove Marine Diesels and being allowed ot keep the change from the £5 i was given for fuel as payment ?

We fitted them to so many vehicles, we also did calor conversions on many as well - for a while we had a mobile workshop which was a Luton Transit with a calor cylinder load strapped to the back of the driver seat. We used to refill the cylinders by hauling a larger one up on a block and tackle to the tractor barn rafter and gravity filling the smaller one on the ground.

Should you care to know - those Perkins also drop straight into a late 80's 3 series BMW without any change to the engine mounts

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Derrick glued his face to the M25.

LOL?

If our customers had 'green' concerns we'd adapt accordingly but not once have we taken an order with a requirement for ethical supply chains or sustainability.

'Being Green'
Our local recycling centre has just introduced a booking system for large vans, apparently as they take longer to unload and slow down the traffic flow.

That you can get as much into a people carrier with the seats down is seemingly lost on the rule makers. A big van needn't necessarily be full to the gunwale's and if so will invariably be unloaded by more than one person.? So I have to book a day or so in advance and make a special 8 mile round trip across town to dispose of a single chest freezer (most of the ditches round here are full?) instead of dropping it off whilst on *other business nearby.
*which I probably can't do - 'see long running insurance thread'?

My 'Green' credentials have subsequently taken a dive. Broken metal garden chair, squeeze it in the bin, old wooden door, burn it etc., etc.,

 

[IanSuth]

LOL?

If our customers had 'green' concerns we'd adapt accordingly but not once have we taken an order with a requirement for ethical supply chains or sustainability.

'Being Green'
Our local recycling centre has just introduced a booking system for large vans, apparently as they take longer to unload and slow down the traffic flow.

That you can get as much into a people carrier with the seats down is seemingly lost on the rule makers. A big van needn't necessarily be full to the gunwale's and if so will invariably be unloaded by more than one person.? So I have to book a day or so in advance and make a special 8 mile round trip across town to dispose of a single chest freezer (most of the ditches round here are full?) instead of dropping it off whilst on *other business nearby.
*which I probably can't do - 'see long running insurance thread'?

My 'Green' credentials have subsequently taken a dive. Broken metal garden chair, squeeze it in the bin, old wooden door, burn it etc., etc.,

Ours did the same but with the excuse it was to stop trade waste being dumped in a residents recycling centre.

Try and take a bathroom suite there and it is £2.50 per item and sink + pedestal or toilet bowl + separate cistern are each 2 items !!

Pain for anyone who borrows there work van to use to take stuff to the tip as they have to "prove" it is non commercial waste

 

[simon field]

We sometimes get RFQs from companies who ask us to fill in a load of paperwork to see if we’re ‘right-on’, and one of the things they ask for is an ‘environmental policy’.

We don’t have one, will never have one, and are happier without these box-tickers as customers!

None of what we make can be recycled, and the raw materials come from places where there are no rules.

It’s all just one big money-making exercise imho.

 

[Eco - Robert]

OK everyone, I think that's the end of the conversation if not the debate. Thanks again to everyone and I'll sign off now.
Robert

 

[The Byre]

Should you care to know - those Perkins also drop straight into a late 80's 3 series BMW without any change to the engine mounts

No, it's no good. I've thought and thought and thought and thought and I still cannot come up with a scenario in which that fact could possibly or even remotely come in as being in any way useful!

But I had fun trying! Something along the lines of -

"You know Clive, that 235hp engine in yer M3, well, it's just too nippy 'round corners. Touch of oversteer and that nice sound - far too OTT if you ask me! What you want is a 50hp Perkins Diesel that weighs a ton and gives you that deadly understeer on a wet road - that's what you want! Put an IH gearbox in with it and you'll get eight forward gears, four reverse gears - and you could put a loader on the front to impress the birds in Tesco's car park on a Saturday night - and 'ave two PTO drives for when yer dad says to mow the lawn!"

 

[SillyBill]

The elephant in the room for big business, those who like to paint themselves green in particular, is that halting consumption of anything but the absolute necessities is really the only green thing to do. Much of what we produce is not essential so we're part of the problem. To be truly green a lot of what makes up modern economies ought to stop. Window dressing beyond that, calling some piece of non-essential tat, whatever it is, eco-friendly, is a bit of a farce. Dubious how much is compatible with capitalism fundamentally. I see blurred lines even in descriptions of synthetic and natural with the latter held up as somehow godly and the former evil, everything comes from the earth one way or another to my mind, modified and manipulated in some cases to enhance its properties but isn't everything of earth origin? Unless we're talking extra-terrestrial feedstocks. A lot of this marketing twist is actually environmentally damaging, for instance, if we were serious about saving the planet we should have campaigns to keep existing diesel and petrol cars running as long as possible and then switching out to electric only when truly knackered. Anyone who thinks they're ever doing the planet a favour by buying a Tesla a moment before they absolutely have to retire a banger needs to pull their head out the clouds. All consumption is therefore damage limitation, nothing is really eco friendly, just some stuff is less damaging than others. There are even yachts (Silent Yachts) billing themselves as green now due to solar powered, can you even contemplate the cognitive dissonance required to assume a massive yacht with a few solar panels on the roof is doing your bit for the planet?

I do think we should treat the earth with a lot more respect than we do as a civilisation incidentally. I guess my idea of environmentalism is old school. In so far as if I see litter in the canal it upsets me, if I see needless waste of natural resources like energy or water it frustrates me, I'd rather use a bag for life than hand me yet more plastic etc. So basically not abusing the environment anymore than our existence otherwise should. But not calling for humans to go back to caves either.

I do see the green movement becoming like a religion in certain areas of work specs. Specifications now seem to be more interested in how many plastic straws have been saved rather than the quality of the product. You just have to run along with the pages of pages of nonsense (most of which has absolutely zero comprehension of how supply chains actually work). I don't think anyone really cares as long as the form is filled in though. Once upon a time it was considered reckless to be single sourced on a raw, now technically how does a cradle to grave calculation work if you have 8 raws into a product and multiple sources for them? We buy commodities on price every month, might be Spanish material one week, German the next. One source could be Chinese, one European. European calls a force majeure, then what? Recall the product because it violates its claimed CO2 performance for that batch. We constantly have moving parts in a supply chain. It is amazing for pen pushers though, a whole new economy is developing where we tell each other how green we all are while doing less productive work.

 

[simon field]

They keep painting this climate fluctuation out to be an ‘emergency’ but clearly it isn’t!

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Ours did the same but with the excuse it was to stop trade waste being dumped in a residents recycling centre.

Try and take a bathroom suite there and it is £2.50 per item and sink + pedestal or toilet bowl + separate cistern are each 2 items !!

Pain for anyone who borrows there work van to use to take stuff to the tip as they have to "prove" it is non commercial waste

Ours has had a long term ban on trade waste but when you'd see a 4m bed, Hi-top Sprinter full to the brim with plasterboard and little else you'd wonder if a few $$$$$$$ weren't being exchanged?

I don't think we get charged for domestic items, and I wouldn't have a problem paying a few quid, especially if limited trade waste could be disposed of as well. The next cheapest option, something like a Hippo bag is a couple of hundred quid!

 

[MOIC]

It's an interesting topic and has been seen in the past few years on other topics, it seems it's a binary choice, you're either for it, or you're not.


From a general public's point of view, I think the vast majority are not bothered and many may claim to want an 'eco-friendly' product, but would not pay more for it, as the price point is the determining factor. However, there is a (growing) trend over the past few years, albeit a tiny minority, that are into the 'eco-friendly' view of the world and will spend more on an eco-friendly product.


The drive to use natural, recycled, recyclable & biodegradable products is in most part the responsibility of the national retail chains to offer such products and this includes transparency from their supply chains. This is becoming an increasingly growing trend and new supply chains are sourced to comply with each group's requirements. Small businesses also need to find that niche to make their product stand out from the rest and this is one area where retailers can market their 'green' credentials.


It's clear that over recent years there's an increasing demand for 'green' materials and certification (SEDEX, OEKO-TEX, GRS, FSC, . . . .) from the leading international brands, whether it's Zara, Nike or Armani. They are all involved n sourcing and marketing 'green' & sustainable fabrics for their collections Many now specify recycled paper for their packaging boxes, vegetable pulp for their inner trays, bio wheat products instead of plastic & vegetarian leather instead of animal leather. There is also a switch from metal electroplating to PVD coating, which uses less harmful chemicals. I think this trend will continue to grow.


If you want to stand out as a niche supplier, use the materials that are looked as at being 'green', whether that's a natural, recycled, recyclable or biodegradable material and ensure you have the certificates to prove it!


I can totally understand @simon field & @SillyBill views, as their industries (I may be wrong) rely on chemicals, which are impossible to substitute. There are many industries that 'cannot' go 'green'.


Many countries now (including China surprise surprise) are closing factories down due to the harmful chemicals being used. I know of many.


IMHO 'green' is here to stay. . . . . . . the younger generation will see to that!

 

[MBE2017]

Of all the things mentioned by the OP, personally for myself Quality, Price and UK British Made are most important for myself, for instance I will always buy English Cheddar Cheese rather than Irish or New Zealand, even if it costs more.

If more bought locally we would have more jobs, lower emissions etc. I agree with The Byre, all the Green policies are mostly stupid, aimed more for a five second news soundbite than any real change.

The worst thing to do is scrap perfectly good serviceable motors in exchange for EV cars, most of which initial cost is more than the average lifetime use of a diesel car. Add to the problem batteries having to be replaced after so long, I don’t believe they are more efficient in the slightest. It does make a nice soundbite for the news.

 

[simon field]

Nobody’s taking it seriously in any case.

Queen burns about 820 litres of fuel as does William using a helicopter to fly from Windsor to Sandringham. The helicopter then flies back empty. Then a return trip empty to pick her or William up. They could sell the empty seats to county lines runners.

Fuel in a Range Rover would have been about 50 litres.

Charles flew with a couple of servants and valet from Northolt in a medium sized jet to Marham. The jet dropped Charles, his servants and toilet seat off and flew back empty.

It then flew back to Marham empty. Picked him and the servants and seat up and flew him to Aberdeen to another holiday home.
It flew back empty to Northolt.

Packham flights in the last year? hopefully none as he has already travelled thousands of miles by plane to other countries to host (well paid) tourists who have flown to those countries to look at ……… wildlife. Yes remarkable.

There is a climate fluctuation issue yes.

There cannot be a crisis as the world isn’t taking it seriously. Air travel would be stopped. Off course it should be stopped but it’s regarded as ‘good pollution’ so nothing will be done. Maybe plant a few greenwash trees but that’s cobblers when you read pompous faux environmentalists say they planted a tree to offset their air travel. Same goes for airlines saying they are working to be carbon neutral. Total Lob.

What gets up my nose and others is an overly privileged royal family lecturing us about the climate yet they fly and then travel by huge engined 4x4s. Sneering at us as they waft pass.

Same for celebs. Not an easy target but a fair and relevant one. They too smirk as they pose for pictures abroad after their long flights. The constantly irritating Emma Thompson even flew across from America to the U.K. to a climate protest. Talk about bizarre.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

A somewhat tongue in cheek question but what is the make up of the glue that climate change protesters use to stick themselves to the highway?

Is it eco friendly?

 

[estwig]

A somewhat tongue in cheek question but what is the make up of the glue that climate change protesters use to stick themselves to the highway?

Is it eco friendly?

Nothing could be more eco-friendly, than a dead horse!

 

[japancool]

Fuel in a Range Rover would have been about 50 litres.

Or she could get National Express.

 

[japancool]

There cannot be a crisis as the world isn’t taking it seriously. Air travel would be stopped. Off course it should be stopped but it’s regarded as ‘good pollution’ so nothing will be done. Maybe plant a few greenwash trees but that’s cobblers when you read pompous faux environmentalists say they planted a tree to offset their air travel. Same goes for airlines saying they are working to be carbon neutral. Total Lob.

I saw a study somewhere that airlines could significantly reduce their contribution to global warming by simply changing their flight patterns to eliminate contrails. Contrails are estimated to do more to increase global warming than the the airline industry's fuel burning.

Seems too simple to be true.

 

[Ballscoigne]

As a consumer, I cringe every time I see a green agenda company. I assume the owner is either stupid or complicit.

As a business owner, I'd stay far away from any movement that governments abuse to raise taxes.

 

[DazRave]

Queen burns about 820 litres of fuel as does William using a helicopter to fly from Windsor to Sandringham. The helicopter then flies back empty. Then a return trip empty to pick her or William up. They could sell the empty seats to county lines runners.

Fuel in a Range Rover would have been about 50 litres.

Range Rover + the 20 police officers and vehicles involved convoy that far safely and then all the drivers who get stopped and wait for an extra 3 minutes onto their journey, burning fuel, while she passes and waves.

 

[The Byre]

IMHO 'green' is here to stay. . . . . . . the younger generation will see to that!

I hope so - but don't count on it!

So the first warnings came in the 70s and by 1980, the green movement was shouting from the rooftops. To no avail! We were ignored - fringe nutters that want us to consume less - who's going to vote for less? Nobody, that's who!

Wrong - they started to listen - but then the core message was usurped and misunderstood. There are two sides or aspects to protecting the environment - energy and pollution.

ENERGY

The time to find and develop new and cleaner types of energy was long ago. We still have done Sweet Fanny Adams about tidal energy, despite the fact that the UK has some of the highest tides on Planet Earth. That is vast amounts of free energy being ignored!

Then there is the absurd issue of hydro and wind - in Scotland, there are 85 mostly small hydroelectric dams, of which just ten were built after 1980. The very largest has just 200MW maximum capacity and that was built in 1896 - yes, you did read that correctly! Compare that with the 'Beatrice' windfarm in the Murray Firth with nearly 600MW.

The UK was building hydro schemes like Billy-O in the 50s and 60s, but today the little that is done is being done by Siemans and Hoch-Tief and other German companies. The wind farms are mostly Danish, hence the name 'Beatrice' after their queen. The reason is that the Danish and German governments made sure that their indigenous industries were supported to the hilt, esp. in all things to do with R&D.

This BBC article shows just how successive governments have been dragging their feet when dealing with what ought to be an urgent problem - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-57510870

POLLUTION

The record is not good for those nanoparticles created by plastic waste - China does not want our waste anymore and neither do other countries. We could recycle our own bottles and bags, but to do that there has to be an incentive. The technology is there. Thousands of recycling machines are located at the entrances of thousands of supermarkets all over Europe and beyond. The industry and the retailers in the UK could retool and restructure within months - it's off-the-shelf technology!

The subject is called container deposit schemes and about 25 counties have introduced mandatory deposit schemes on cans and bottles. At the entrance to every supermarket, there is a machine that swallows and grinds up plastic bottles into ready-for-use granulate after reading their code. The consumer then presses a button telling the machine that they are finished and the machine either issues a credit note or credits the shopper's debit card. Other machines process aluminum and glass containers.

When these schemes were introduced there was of course a wailing and a gnashing of teeth by the drinks industry - until they realised that there is a rather large silver lining within what they took to be a cloud. It's called additional sources of profit.

The reason is simple - not all the containers come back and for some lines, that can be as many as one-in-ten. Given the 25-cent deposit and the microscopic cost of a PET bottle and the fact that all that aluminum and granulate can be sold, those machines are a source of profit.

And then there is Germany pioneering all this green technology and now burning brown coal - the most polluting fuel they could possibly use! And all because 'Mutti' decided to rely on Russian gas and close down nuclear, but with no replacement. The world has learned nothing!

 

[simon field]

Looks like global consumerism has to go then, to make any significant difference.

When do you see that happening?

 

[japancool]

The reason is simple - not all the containers come back and for some lines, that can be as many as one-in-ten. Given the 25-cent deposit and the microscopic cost of a PET bottle and the fact that all that aluminum and granulate can be sold, those machines are a source of profit.

Japan has a simple expedient for this. *Every* vending machine has an integrated bin for disposal of cans and PET bottles, and every covenience store (of which there are many) also has recycling bins. Unsurprisingly, everyone uses them.

 

[japancool]

Looks like global consumerism has to go then, to make any significant difference.

When do you see that happening?

When "young people" (that is, the ones bleating about it most) give up their fast fashion and yearly iPhone upgrades.

Also, can we ban cryptocurrency please? That'll save electricity.

 

[simon field]

When "young people" (that is, the ones bleating about it most) give up their fast fashion and yearly iPhone upgrades.

Also, can we ban cryptocurrency please? That'll save electricity.

Ah yes - the ‘I want everything and I want it now!’ generation.

Someone needs to tell them they can’t have it both ways!

 

[MOIC]

Governments are always the last to react, but there are some that have moved much faster in recycling different materials, sadly the UK isn’t one of them.

Youngsters……..fall in into 2 categories, those that don’t give a damn and those that do. You’ll never change the first, but the latter will grow.

I don’t think it’s just a question of buying less, but being able to buy products using recycled and other green materials. It’s definitely happening and those that supply the big boys will vouch for that. There are very few retail groups in the UK that do not have ‘green’ on their agenda and it will filter through, albeit slowly.

Energy & Pollution?

That’s for governments to act on.

Wishful thinking, especially given the current situation.