Do I sue sold trader or ltd company

[cbrqueen]

HI everyone this is my first time on this site so please be gentle with me and I have no legal experience.
I recently purchased a fully accredited nail diploma course, but it turns out that the teacher was not accredited, I paid almost £1000 for the course and she is refusing to refund me, I have contacted the police and she was apparently sentenced for 26 months for fraud in Jan 09, but thats from a criminal point and mine is a civil. Anyway when I did the course in my home on the 14th July she was only a sole trader and when I found out she was not accredited on the 18th after being suspicious and contacting the police she became LTD. So anyways I issued her with the court claim and she has written in the defense because she wants to defend that her company is not the name I am suing but the LTD name she has just registered the company as, in fact I contacted Company house and they have told me the name she now claims is the company dissolved in 2008 and was not register to her but she has since set up another limited company this one the one on the 18th. I hope you can follow as is very complicated. I just need some help in knowing who to sue as the court says I need to find this out myself as they can't give me advise on who to sue. If I sue in the LTD name she may then claim she was not LTD at the time and if I continue suing her as a sole trader she may be write in saying I should be suing her as a LTD company.
I think she is just trying to make me give up, but to be honest if I have to keep paying for court claims I may have to.

 

[Steve Sellers]

From what you say you need to sue her personally.

The agreement is between you and her personally from what you say. However as the Claimant you will need to establish on the balance of probabilities that your agreement was between you and her personally. Evidence of this

1- her 1st Ltd company was dissolved before you entered the contract, and second not formed until after the contract was formed.
2 - how did you pay her? Cheque/bank transfer into her personal name?
3 - Any receipts etc in her personal name?
4 - Any letters or other correspondence where she uses her personal name and not the Ltd company?

Additionally limited companies are obliged to make it clear that they are operating on a limited basis on all their letters etc. I would most definitely go after her in her personal name, because no doubt she will just sink the company if you get a judgment.

 

[cbrqueen]

Hi Steve thanks for your response, I payed her in cash but got printed receipts from her company name with no mention of being limited, I also have the report from company house showing the dates the company was set up. Apparantly she still owes part/all of the £20K she defrauded before on ebay or she will return to prison. When I googled her on the net she is down as listing 7 different companys some of which are LTD listed on company house all registered to her residential address, does that mean she could use one of those LTD companys and put this company under them so it would be LTD after all. Also you may be able to help me on this, she also claims her surname is different in her defense but all my correspondence and dealings are with the name I have used, the police have advised me that they had this name originally for her with 2 other alias, so again who do I sue as her name. When I went to the court for advise they seemed to think she was very clever and good just put me on a goose chase, but I hate the fact she is just getting away with this. The police are still trying to attempt an arrest over the fraud part of this.

 

[Steve Sellers]

Given the alleged fraudulent activities it is likely that she is using her limited companies as a mere front. Chopping and changing money between companies may also mean she is breaking money laundering rules.

On a practical level it seems that even if you get a ccj against her you will struggle to recover your money. Sometimes the best thing to do is walk away and not throw more good money after bad. If as you say the Police are having trouble getting hold of her, I seriously doubt you will have any luck through the county courts.

You may also want to search her names to see if she is bankrupt http://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/eiir/

 

[Atilla]

You've probably lost your money but i bet whe didn't declare the cash to HMRC.
Won't get your money back but making the call may make you fell a little better.

 

[Bill Ryan]

I pretty much agree with all Steve has said about this.

There is a two stage check before taking any court action

1. Have a got a good case?
If Yes go to 2;

2. So I win the case but will I get the money?

Sounds to me like you won't.

 

[cbrqueen]

Thanks again Steve, I want to go as far as having to put my hand in my pocket again. Do you think its defo her name I should go for? Even if she has other limited companies at the time of my course registered to the same address , but in different names to what I took the contract out with?
Thanks

 

[Steve Sellers]

Thanks again Steve, I want to go as far as having to put my hand in my pocket again. Do you think its defo her name I should go for? Even if she has other limited companies at the time of my course registered to the same address , but in different names to what I took the contract out with?
Thanks

It is irrelevant how many Ltd companies she has registered. You should and more importantly can only take action against the person or ltd company that you had the contract with. As stated earlier, and as Bill quite rightly said, suing her may be pointless. Commercial litigation lawyers have a saying - "you don't sue a man in a straw hat". Has she got assets you can get access to or will you simply be just another person in a very long queue.

 

[arcon5]

Even if she cannot afford to pay, for the little amount of money is costs to file a claim via MCO it still may be worth it... afterall if you win the case she will have a CCJ on her credit file which could affect her for a long time after.

 

[jules12345]

Its prima facie evidence already that she has admitted her dealings with you. She is just disputing your dealings with her as a sole trader or as a director of a Ltd company it seems.

Either way you make a claim against her as a sole trader and she says no it was the ltd company, you must serve it against the ltd company so so be it, she is admitting that A - She knows you and B - You have had dealings with her.

She has to disclose the details of the registered office as a ltd company to serve papers to, and as a sole trader you can serve it to her last know address.

I have heard and read that a facebook service, has been successful but maybe Bill could elucidate, the info is on my site from the article that I read.

The question of money of course as already highlighted has relevance, but as the poster above mentions you may be able to get a repayment that involves a monthly plan from the court.

The court makes a CCJ, you get that CCj enforced or you get a debt collector company to go forward, they will get your money most probably even if its a case of bye bye tv, car.

Regards
Jules

 

[jules12345]

One last point - who was the payment to ..... her or the company (that is who you sue) if it was a ltd company then the payment would have been made to the company etc etc.

You see to clarify - if she was acting a s Dirctor for the company she couldnt receive money in company to her herself she would be breaching a number of rules and laws potentially and would be liable personally anyway.

therefore if you made the payment to her herself - serve the documents on her she misrepped herself and as such under the misrep act you can claim professional profit loss. If you paid the company then serve on the company, simple really, as your case is in contract law so the who gets the consideration is what you have to determine to determine who breached the contract, rem a company is a legal person.

regards
Jules

 

[jules12345]

may I also suggest that if she was holding out as a director of the company but receiving funds personally she wold guilty of Fraudulent Misrep and it would be a co-orperate criminal matter hypothetically.

I would suggest if i was an advocate one might might press for the mens rea of the fraud where loss and gain is necessary to prove the offence, that you would have intentional loss and probably reckless gain, the mens rea would therefore be present. But one might push for intentional loss and intentional gain which would be a more severe punishment IMHO.

(all advice given here in regards to advocacy would almost certainly be poo pooed as nonsense as im not an advocate.)

Regards
Jules

 

[jules12345]

actually it would likely be reckless loss intentional gain - as she probably actually believed or may have done that she was giving you a quality training which would detract from intentional down to reckless as ignorantia juris non excusat. (ignorance of the law is no excuse) A - she didnt know that you had to be registered - B she dismissed it as irrelevant.

Ignorantia Juris is actually an irony as of course in criminal law ignorance of the law DOES effect mens rea, usually from intention to reckless.

IMHO that is.

But the question I ask the disbelievers is whether or not it is a true irony or a dramatic irony he he he.

dramatic is the answer...!

of course evryone knows that true irony is merely a porkie pie.

pass the salt -
Id rather you pass me.

Regards
Jules

 

[jules12345]

goddamn caterpillar slaves -

well talk to the hookah...!

watch out here comes the hooker she replies.

Old chinese proverb - dont run on humpty or humpty may run on you...!

 

[jules12345]

Ive just thought of a joke

Why did Humpty Dumpty sit on the wall....?































Coz he couldn't get his leg over...!

LMAO

Regards
Jules

 

[BookMarkLee]

When she was a sole trader she was not operating as a company. Remember to only refer to the company when you mean the limited company. When you dealt with her she was a sole trader - even if she had a business name.

You paid her personally - even if she invoiced you using her business name.

Good luck.

 

[arcon5]

Are you okay Jules ? :|