Dissapearing Bad Debtor

Long story, but bottom line is - I completed a job September 2011 for a couple of builders. One builder paid 50% of oustanding invoice, the second one didn't. I have a court ruling in my favour against builder number 2. However, high court enforcement officers have been to collect goods to the value but he 'had moved'. I found a second address for him, but again he 'had moved'. He has a couple of businesses registered with companies house at the addresses I provided the HCEOs with but apparently he no longer lives there. Is there any way that he can be traced? It is possible to pay someone to locate him following a paper trail, my concern is he is in rented accomodation and he probably doing a lot of cash work. Therefore leaving a faint trail, probably feeding back to the addresses I've already found (the first of which is where his parents are currently living). I don't want to keep throwing good money after bad, but at the same time I could do with the invoice being paid!
 

Big G

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Dec 15, 2010
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Hi SBailey,

Unfortunately I come accross this quite alot in my industry.

You have already done the hard bit which is to secure the debt with a CCJ against builder number 2. For this reason I would personally not bother thinking about going after builder number 1 again as it would appear that he has kept his side of the deal and would most likely fight his corner in Court if necessary.

Tracing bad debtors is quite easy and there are many trace companies about. (I could help with this and point you in the right direction if you like).

Lastly, High Court Enforcement Officers do a good job but when pursuing an individual they cannot force entry and need to have something to go on, i.e. vehicle details or some sort of property owned by the debtor.

There are other ways of enforcing a CCJ and I can also advise you on this but before I do I will need to know a few things :

1. What is the amount of the CCJ that you obtained.? (You dont have to give the exact figure but just a ball park.?)

2. Have you ever received any payments from the debtor at all throughout your entire dealings with him.?

Thanks
Nick
 
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The amount outstanding is around £6500. I received a deposit payment from the partnership prior to work commencing. The remaining monies are against two invoices, one issued just before completion of contract, the second just after. The story is that the partnership broke down just after my last invoice. Apparently builder 1 had been taking alot of money from the contract for himself leaving builder 2 and a few sub-contractors with nothing. As part of the negotiations I gave both of them a letter stating that if they paid their 50% I would not persue them for the remainder. I have paid the HCEOs to obtian a FIFA in order that they can gain access to the property, this expires shortly and they are stilling failing to locate builder 2 at the addresses given. Unfortunately, although I have been tempted, he is based a bit to far away for me to go and sit outside for a day and watch comings and goings. Although even if I saw him at the address that doesn't help the HCEOs as he needs to be in when they come a knockin'.
 
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Big G

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Dec 15, 2010
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Thanks for your reply.

A Writ of Fifa does not give the HCEO's any power to force entry in to a private residence unfortunately. The debtor has to allow them peaceful entry before they can execute the Writ. However, if they could locate any vehicles or external assets then they could enforce.

When you say that they paid you a deposit. How was this paid.? Was it cheque, cash or bank transfer.? If it was cheque or bank transfer who's name did it come from.? Builder 1 or Builder 2.?

If you would like to send me a private message with both builders details i.e. name, last know addresses and any company or partnership names I could do a little digging for you.

Nick
 
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dal

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Jul 26, 2007
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Thanks for your reply.
A Writ of Fifa does not give the HCEO's any power to force entry in to a private residence unfortunately. The debtor has to allow them peaceful entry before they can execute the Writ. However, if they could locate any vehicles or external assets then they could enforce.
Nick

Really? That sucks, what do you need to be able to force entry? http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/sched_rsc/rscorder47 Writ of Fifa seems pretty frivolous then?
I can't seem to understand much on my link, why do they have to talk like this lol, and I thought Bishop's were in the church :D.
 
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Big G

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Dec 15, 2010
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Unfortunately High Court Enforcement Officers cannot force entry in to a private property ever. Unless, they have gained peaceful entry previously, levied on goods inside the property and the debtor has still not paid. They can then return with the police and locksmiths in order to remove the goods that they have levied execution on.

This is very rare though as a debtor who is not willing to pay will probably know the rules and will never let the High Court Enforcement Officers gain peaceful entry.

There are other ways to enforce CCJ's though and our advice on enforcement differs on each case depending on the debtors circumstances.
 
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dal

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Jul 26, 2007
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There are other ways to enforce CCJ's though and our advice on enforcement differs on each case depending on the debtors circumstances.

I can't see the circumstances changing too much. You obtain a CCJ, the debtor owes the money. There will be a certain amount of options; that's it!

Options with Comany debt:

  • wind the company up;
  • a statutory demand (if the debt is unchallenged)
  • cut your losses and walk away.

So what are the options with a personal debt?:

Obtain CCJ then:

  • Writ of Fifa (which seems pointless);
  • Not sure on the technical term but you can put a charge on house when they sell their property. But you cannot force them to sell, so again pointless.
What about all them programmes you see on tv where the bailiffs remove goods? Don't tell me these are all done on a writ of Fifa?
 
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Big G

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Not sure on the technical term but you can put a charge on house when they sell their property. But you cannot force them to sell, so again pointless.
What about all them programmes you see on tv where the bailiffs remove goods? Don't tell me these are all done on a writ of Fifa?

Your not wrong, so to speak, but also not entirely correct on a few points..

If the debt is owed from a limited company, the outstanding amount is above £750.00 and undisputed then you can issue Winding Up Proceedings and the first stage of this is to issue a Statutory Demand (unless you already have a CCJ). However, if the debtor does not respond to the Statutory Demand then the cost to instruct a Solicitor to issue a Winding Up Petition is in excess of £2k (including disbursements) so you have to consider the size of the debt and if this will be cost effective.

You also have the options to issue County Court Proceedings, obtain a CCJ against the limited company and the enforce the CCJ with :

1. High Court Enforcement Officers (if the debt is above £600.00)
2. Charging Order (if the company owns property)
3. County Court Bailiff's (if the debt is below £600.00 but I never recommend as they are useless nowadays)
4. Third Party Debt Order
5. Winding Up Proceedings

If the debt is owed by an individual, is above £750.00 and is undisputed then you also have the insolvency option of Bankruptcy which is much the same as Winding Up. You first have to issue and serve a Statutory Demand and then if the debtor fails to respond you can issue a Bankruptcy Petition. Again, a Solicitor has to issue the Bankruptcy Petition and the costs are in excess of £2k (including disbursements) so you have to condsider if this is cost effective.

Again, you also have the following option to issue County Court Proceedings, obtain a CCJ and enforce a the same with :

1. High Court Enforcement Officers (if debt above £600)
2. Charging Order (if debtor owns property, solely or jointly)
3. County Court Bailiff's (if debt below £600 but I would not recommend)
4. Third Party Debt Order
5. Attachment of Earnings (if working)
6. Bankruptcy Proceedings

High Court Enforcement Officers rights of entry are as follows :

Commercial premises

The HCEO can force entry to commercial premises to levy on a first visit or any subsequent visit to remove goods providing the property is not physically attached to, and form any part of, a residential dwelling. Prior to forcing entry, the HCEO should have a genuine reason to believe that goods of the defendant are contained within. They should make reasonable enquiries as to whether the property is rented, contacting the landlord if necessary.

Residential premises

The HCEO may climb a perimeter wall or fence to gain entry to the grounds of the property. They can then enter where a door or window is open, opening further to aid entry if required. They may also use the door handle to gain access when the door is unlocked but may not open a window that is shut.
Once inside, they may also break down the inner doors of the property to seek the goods of the defendant. The HCEO may not be forcibly ejected; however, if they are, they can now force re-entry back into the property.
Furthermore, they may force entry to a garage, out house, stables or barn providing it is not physically attached to, and form any part of, the residence.

Lastly, you stated that once a Charging Order is obtained you cannot force the debtor to sell. However, new rules came into effect on 5.4.13 governing the way that creditors can force the sale of property in order to repay outstanding sums on consumer debt. The limit for a force to sell was £25,000.00 but has now been reduced right down to £1000.00.

I hope that this post helps in some way but if you are struggling at all to enforce a CCJ, PM me or look us up and we will try to advise / assist the best option available to you based on the debt and the debtors circumstances.
 
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dal

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Jul 26, 2007
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Your not wrong, so to speak, but also not entirely correct on a few points..

If the debt is owed from a limited company, the outstanding amount is

Now that's a well written post that will benefit many users :). I think you can recover your costs of winding up a company; obviously dependent that their assets are greater than the debt.

That's great news about the update on the charging order.

You refer to the HCEO rights to enter property. What English legislation covers this?
 
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Touronaut

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Jun 13, 2013
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I would invent a big money job via a member of my family or friends in a different town. I would ask the company to provide quotes and sit back and wait for a hard sell. There is a good chance that greedy Rat no2 would eventually poke his head out and show he is still connected to the company. Arrange a meeting and have an official with your fake job guy, bailiff, solicitor etc. Then you can take Rat no2 to court. At this point it also becomes fraud and deception, so in some circumstances it is possible to prosecute the people if they dissolve the company.
 
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Big G

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Dec 15, 2010
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I would invent a big money job via a member of my family or friends in a different town. I would ask the company to provide quotes and sit back and wait for a hard sell. There is a good chance that greedy Rat no2 would eventually poke his head out and show he is still connected to the company. Arrange a meeting and have an official with your fake job guy, bailiff, solicitor etc. Then you can take Rat no2 to court. At this point it also becomes fraud and deception, so in some circumstances it is possible to prosecute the people if they dissolve the company.

This could be treated as entrapment so I personally wouldn't advise this. Also, as the proposed 'fake big job' will be completely separate and irrelevant to your problem it will actually prove nothing legally. Although, it may give you the answers that you may suspect you could not stand up in Court and say he is liable because you got a friend to request a quote that was a fake job and both guys turned up (or something to that effect). In fact, you may even be ordered to pay his legal costs for something like this.
 
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Touronaut

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This could be treated as entrapment so I personally wouldn't advise this. Also, as the proposed 'fake big job' will be completely separate and irrelevant to your problem it will actually prove nothing legally. Although, it may give you the answers that you may suspect you could not stand up in Court and say he is liable because you got a friend to request a quote that was a fake job and both guys turned up (or something to that effect). In fact, you may even be ordered to pay his legal costs for something like this.

Its not entrapment and the quote does not have to be fake. Just to get them in the in the same spot at the same time, working together is enough to prove a case against both as a partnership. My friend is a bailiff and they do this all the time. My mate uses the term "Its hard to chase a cunning rat, but easy to bait a greedy one" Also they use this tactic on TV shows every week and the police use this to lure crooks on the run by saying they have won a prize.
 
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It won't be entrapment, otherwise I doubt programs like the one with Dominic littlewood chasing down bad builders wouldn't exist

Edit:sorry just realised the other poster covered this
 
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Big G

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Im sorry but you cannot rely on TV programmes like cowboy builders, etc as you only see the edited versions of what they want you to see.

Filming somebody without their consent and trinking them in to admitting something, etc is entrapment.

And to answer the question about when you see the locksmiths go with bailiff's on the Bailiff / High Court Enforcment Officer TV programme. If its a private residence then the Bailiff or High Court Enforcement MUST have already gained peaceful entry of the property (off camera) and levied on goods inside the property. The debtor then has so many days to pay and if not they can then return and force entry. If it was a commercial property then they can force entry but MUST leave it secure.

Do not believe everything that you see on TV people. Godzilla & King Kong are also not real.!! ;-)
 
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Touronaut

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Jun 13, 2013
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Im sorry but you cannot rely on TV programmes like cowboy builders, etc as you only see the edited versions of what they want you to see.

Filming somebody without their consent and trinking them in to admitting something, etc is entrapment.

And to answer the question about when you see the locksmiths go with bailiff's on the Bailiff / High Court Enforcment Officer TV programme. If its a private residence then the Bailiff or High Court Enforcement MUST have already gained peaceful entry of the property (off camera) and levied on goods inside the property. The debtor then has so many days to pay and if not they can then return and force entry. If it was a commercial property then they can force entry but MUST leave it secure.

Do not believe everything that you see on TV people. Godzilla & King Kong are also not real.!! ;-)

You are allowed to film or record someone as long as you are in the film yourself or one of the filmed gives consent. If one willing party is involved then this is within the law. What you are not allowed to do is film others without one of the filmed having given consent. If you are filming people and none have given consent you must give warning or display a sign saying CCTV. You are not allowed to record sound while using CCTV to unless one of the filmed gives consent. That is the law, fact.
As for tricking someone into admitting something; that is not what this is. You are simply proving the 2 builders are working as a partnership. If the job exsists and they come to quote and are caught on CCTV and the job is not given to them because of Mr Rat2's past behavour then what is a crime? The CCTV is used to prove a case....job done. It is a crime for the builders to deceive, not for the ripped off customer to catch them in an act of lying and deceipt. My initial post was......What I would do!
 
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